Hello, I am trying to recreate the expansion in the scoring of the bread following link
https://www.dicamillobakery.com/products/niagara-native-fresh-bread-3-small-baked?variant=329033083
I have a nice crusty italian recipe that I will put below and I even form the dough in the same way they do which is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hRfZJ0MI7g
but they open up so much and the coils explode out of then where I can't figure out the cut and how it is not like a V
Here is my best result and you can see the other is almost completely flat, these were deep and straight into the bread and not the 45 degree 1/4 inch. When I do follow the proper ear cut I don't get much of any opening and ear at all
Below is the recipe I use. I love the bread, it's exactly how I remember the ones linked and it makes perfect crispy toast and holds up sell when making sandwiches.
INGREDIENTS
Biga
1 3/4 cups bread flour
1/4 tsp instant yeast
10 oz water
Dough
3 3/4 cups bread flour
10 - 10 1/2 oz water
1 tsp instant yeast
2 tsp salt
1 biga
Make Biga
1. In a large bowl, add all ingredients for the biga and mix by hand until a rough, shaggy dough forms. Cover
with plastic wrap and set aside to rest overnight at room temperature
Mix Dough
- In a standing mixer with dough hook, add all ingredients and mix starting on low speed, slowly
increasing to medium speed until a smooth dough forms, about 78 minutes
- Remove the dough from mixing bowl and place it in a large bowl sprayed with cooking spray and
cover with plastic wrap
- Let dough rise for an hour at room temperature, covered with a towel
Turn Dough
1. Place dough on a flourdusted table. Punch down the dough and dust with flour
2. With the dough in an oval shape, fold the left and right side of the dough into the center, like you would fold a letter into an envelope and roll twice from top to the bottom ( so top to center, then repeat and seam should be under the dough)
3. Return the dough to the bowl, cover and let it rise for another hour at room temperature
4. Turn the dough again, cover and let it rise for another hour at room temperature
Shape Loaves
- Cut the dough into 2 pieces and shape the loaves and let sit for one more hour
- shaping the dough, watch this video
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hRfZJ0MI7g
- Once loaves are shaped allow them to rise for 4560 minutes
Baking
- Preheat the oven to 400°
- Using a brush, baste loaves with water to get a crust - add sesame seeds if you wish at this point
- Using a sharp knife, gently slash the loaves. in a 45 degree angle into the center of the loaf across the length of the loaf but not into the ends.
- Bake until a golden brown exterior forms, about 3040 minutes.
I use a baking stone but since I get two loafs, I use a 1/2 baking sheet pan and place that on the stone. the loafs are in an angle int he pan, only way they fit for the size. You could just make smaller loafs
After the 35 minutes, I take out and tap the bottom for that hollow sound.
Shape Loaves & Bake
Preheat the oven to 450°
Starting from the bottom of the dough, use your fingers to tuck and roll the bottom toward the center of the dough. Seal the seam by pinching them together
Once loaves are shaped allow them to rise for 45-60 minutes
Using a spray bottle or a pastry brush, baste loaves with water to ensure a crust
Using a sharp knife, gently slash the loaves into desired patterns
Bake until a golden brown exterior forms, about 30-40 minutes. For an extra crispy crust, pour additional water into the bottom of the hot oven during the baking time. You can also alternate the pans from top to bottom after about 15-20 minutes so the bottom loaves get some color from the top heat (this step may also vary depending on the oven)
There seems to be a couple of different sets of instructions in your post, so it's hard to say what might need changing. I think 400F seems too low for baking an un-enriched (no fat, dairy or sweetener) bread, but the 450F should work. Or you might try pre-heating to 475F, leave it there for five minutes after putting the bread in the oven, then turn it down to 425F. Bake it for maybe five more minutes as well.
As for the oven spring - there's a possibility that your bread is over-proofed when you put it in the oven, so there's no more 'push' left when it hits the heat. The dough collapses. A couple of things to try here - reduce the yeast in the dough to half a tsp. Keep the bulk ferment to two hours with the 'turn' or fold at one hour. Shape the loaves (that a really interesting shaping technique, by the way!) and then watch it carefully. It might be ready to bake in as little as 30 minutes if your kitchen is quite warm.
Is there a way that you can get steam into your oven (put a heavy pan in the bottom of the oven to pre-heat, then pour about a cup of hot water into it when you put the loaves into the oven)?
Thanks for the reply.
So, still use Biga, mix, 1 hr rise, turn, 1 hr rise, form 1h rise, bake with some water for steam.
I also been useing a spray bottle going in then at 2 minutes.
When i formt he dough is like a pillow and huge so maybe that extra hour is not needed, I will try that.
the cut, are you thinking center down, center 45 degree 1/4 inch in or on right side cutting in length with blade left.
Just looking at it, I'd probably hold the blade at an angle and cut the length of the loaf slightly to one side of centre. If it's really rising well and has a lot of push still left, a 1/4" deep cut should open well.
Clearly there is something more complicated going on there - the substructure revealed by the cut suggests that the loaf may be made from multiple strands.
Did you watch the shaping video in the original post? It's really quite cool! I'll have to try that one sometime when I have really stretchy dough.
From the video, it's just rolled and serpentine coiled but the oven spring(correct?) and how they burst it looks likt eht cut was around the coiles the way they expanded in their picture
It's correct. Cut in the middle on the length of the bread.
I do not know if that's what you are looking for.
Gaetano
would you share you recipe so I can compare
I'm happy to see your bread. It's one of my favorite bread. In italy it's called Miccone di Pavia.
Low Hydration 45% lard and white flour W330 The dough must be dry low hydration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4I2BnJbOHM
I have italian recipe for this bread, I think is what you are looking for.
Gaetano
After that vid there is one for "La Video Ricetta Passo-Passo delle Biove" the result is close so maybe I am just letting mine over proof like Lazy Loafer commented as I let it rise 4 times for 60 minutes
may I get the recipe.
http://www.dolcesalato.com/blog/2011/02/03/il-miccone-di-stradella/
http://www.molinogaiero.it/ricette/miccone-pavese-con-biga-e-pasta-di-riporto/
Miccone and Biova are very similar change only the shape.
Pasta dura: biova, miccone, coppia ferrarese... are very similar. No bulk fermentation, knead and calender ( very important ) shape and final proof. No bulk fermentation.
We often use biga + old dough ( pasta di riporto in italy )
Pasta dura must be slightly underproof.
Gaetano
Sweet, that is exactly what I am trying to make. The cut, do you have a picture of it before it goes in oven?
One last question, is that compressed yeast instant or active dry in the us?
Compressed yeast
In italy almost all recipe use compressed yeast
Fresh or Cake yeast. Basically it's the non dried non instant yeast. You need to use twice the amount when using instead if dried.
What is this? "calender ( very important )"
I can not explain in English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWxxtzOTOk8
You can use rolling pin.
Gaetano
Oh, great I was searching google trying to use words around it and couldn't. so it's running the dough through a "dough sheeter"
http://www.molinogaiero.it/ricette/miccone-pavese-con-biga-e-pasta-di-riporto/
using the above link and recipe I have a couple questions if you have a little more time to help.
1. renewed carry and fermented dough * Using the google translator it is still a little confusing what this process really is. can you talk to me a little more on this as to this recipe?
2. When it talks about calendering it, do they mean all the dough, calendar it all or should I cut it into portions then calendar it. After I do that, it's flat and long, how do I get it into the braid properly? what is the best method?
I am unsure of the reminants a dough sheeter
Pasta di riporto= old dough sometimes must be feed similar to sourdough
You can do old dough
White flour ( W330 ) 300 g
Water 150 g
Salt 6 g
Yeast 3 g
You can preserve in the fridge after 6 hours. In the fridge remains for 4/5 days. For feed i don't know, sorry.
Gaetano
okay but confused when do I make this. It is like I make it the same time so why is it separate? Do I make this the night before wiht the biga? I am a little confused here on the time line and adding it to the new dough being made.
but i don't speak English well...you can do old dough 3/4 days before and preserve in the fridge o you can do at least 6 hours before an use... Biga must ferment 15/18 hours at 18°C. Old dough ( pasta di riporto ) can also be the remnant of a dough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_I4QEd2tc
It's pasta dura :-) other shape but always pasta dura. You can do this recipe more simple. View dough consistency it's perfect. Osvaldo is a great Italian bakery
Recipe
White flour 1000 g ( W330 )
Water 450 g
Salt 20 g
Lard 50 g ( strutto )
Yeast 25 g ( compresso )
Sugar 10 g
Old dough 500 g ( 3/4 days in the fridge )
Gaetano
The calender, what is this doing for the dough? Is it creating more layers? Forming more Gluten than the standard kneading?
removes air. Bread pasta dura must not have open crumb but smooth crumb.
Gaetano
Okay, I see the cut is straight down and it still opens up like that, well that was simple, well if I knew itlian I may have been able to find it better :)
Much thanks for all the help here, you guys were fast ad very nice here
Only one thing the cut must be less profounf of the my, only 1 cm it's ok.
I think it is more than that... notice in the video that the left hand is working to make sure curves in the coil are staying in place and possibly holding the loops up until the following loop presses against it. I think it is more like a figure 8 with the 8's all lying on one side. In the racing the clock video, watch that left hand, it seems forked using index and last finger. Notice with the first loaf, the second one is sloppy.
The figure 8's are then compressed and rolled to seal. A very light scoring down the middle would suffice to open the loaf, score just before loading before dough has doubled.
Yes my shape is not Miccone. For Shape Miccone see Giorilli video :-) My photo is for cut.
Gaetano