Hi All,
I've been making Ken Forkish's pure levain recipes with some quite amazing, yummy results this past fall/winter. However, with two earlier such breads that I made (same KF recipe) - the interior of the bread was "too soft". Even though it had a good crust the interior was sooo soft that it was difficult to cut, with the bread actually mushing down. I hope this makes sense.
At any rate, I'm trying to understand what causes this? I suspect one of three things: the bulk fermentation time was too long for the temp in my kitchen, my levain is too "vigorous" (ie too much yeast), or perhaps too much hydration?
Thank you all in advance! I am new to making these kind of breads, and would appreciate any insight regarding the factors that could be involved. Also, is it correct to call the interior the "crumb" and if so, should I be saying the crumb is too soft?
Best wishes!
Dough Jo
It sounds to me like you're talking about a gummy crumb. Did it seem like the crumb (you are correct with that term) was overly moist, doughy or even under baked? That's a gummy crumb. And if that's the case, it's usually either a result of under baking, cutting into the loaf too soon after it comes out of the oven, or due to a flattish underproofed loaf with an overly dense crumb (though it may have a few odd large holes or tunnels interspersed throughout the tight dense crumb).
Trevor
take the internal temperature of the loaf and don't remove it till it reaches 95˚C, you might just be taking it out of the oven too soon.
Gerhard
Thank you so much for your comments, as you both bring up an interesting thought.
So, I went back to my notes on those two loaves (I am a meticulous note taker with each loaf) and the internal temp upon removing each from the oven was at 205F and 207F (around 96C). I waited until both loaves were completely cool prior to cutting. I wouldn't actually call the crumb gummy. If I had to describe it I would say it was very light and airy. The more recent loaf that I made (same recipe) came out with a perfect crumb. I reduced the levain by a third of what the recipe called for. That's why, initially, I suspected the amount of yeast. What happens to the crumb when a loaf has too much yeast added to the recipe? Thanks again!
Dough Jo
I'm so new, I'm afraid that what I did may have been a mistake. The recipe I used is from Ken Forkish's, "Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast book (pg.168 Overnight Country Blonde - pure levain recipe). I have been using this recipe as a way to learn more about using wild yeast, and understanding the effects of various factors on crumb. So far it's been fascinating.
I've never seen a levain that was "too vigorous". Having an extremely vigorous levain means that you will get a good rise in a decent time. It will not make a crumb that's so soft it detracts from the quality of the bread (assuming you're working with lean recipes). A vigorous levain is a good thing -- it makes for lighter loaves. Keep in mind that "lighter" is a relative term. For lean sourdough breads, "lighter" simply means a crumb which is well aerated -- either by an irregular combo of large/small holes, or a more even yet equally open collection of medium sized holes. Such terms are subjective, of course.
Even the lightest sourdough crumb will not squish to the point of "mushing down". It may collapse under the pressure of the bread knife, but it will spring back once that pressure is removed. If the crumb stays collapsed then that implies an underbaked (or gummy) crumb. Here's an example of a crumb that was extremely light and airy (at 85% hydration) that was still firm rather than mushy: https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ8OsY5lttE/?taken-by=trevorjaywilson
No disrespect intended, but it may be that since you are so new to this style of bread that you may not have a clear idea of what "perfect crumb" actually is (if such a thing could be said to exist). It may be that you don't yet have the wide range of experience to discern between the different characteristics of varying crumb types. I'm speculating, of course -- that's why pictures would help. Pictures remove the vagaries and subjectivity of descriptions and provide concrete evidence from which to base a judgment.
Trevor
Holy shit, your instagram pics are so inspiring btw. You have lovely bread and great photography!
I appreciate the kind words! To be honest, I'm really just a struggling amateur when it comes to the photography bit. I only know how to use my cell phone (and some photo editing apps). To see some truly amazing bread and photography you should check out @pipsbread (a former TFLer) and @maurizio (author of theperfectloaf.com). They're the best (IMO) when it comes to the combo of bread baking and photography. Cheers!
Trevor
Trevor, thanks for the additional inspiring instagram threads. I followed your instagram to your website which is truly a wealth of information, very professional, and from a design perspective is done with such wonderful aesthetic attention. You are definitely in the same league as those you mention above (different styles that reveal unique interests)- which makes you humble as well :) ....Which seems to be true with so many good folks on this site!
Best wishes!
I am here to gain knowledge, so no disrespect taken at all. Many thanks! I was hoping for honest thoughts and opinions. And, yes, I am a newbie, and will be for awhile. So much to learn, and understanding crumb is one of many things. I would say that the loaves I speak of collapsed under the pressure of the knife, but definitely re-bounded. I did take a picture of the one of the loaves that were "lighter"(the first image). The second image is the same recipe with less levain I baked this past weekend and was, personally, happier with the overall results of the crumb. I'm curious does it make "better" bread to use less levain to lengthen rise time or to use more levain and rise over less time? Perhaps "better" isn't the right word but how does each scenario effect crumb? Hmmm... I see another bread baking in my future to answer this question.
Those look beautiful, imho, and if they were mine they wouldn't last long enough to take pictures. I would eat them all up. :)
Sounds to me like you've got a side-by-side test coming up - more levain and less time versus less levain and more time. Bake them together and see which one you like best! Oh, and post the photos for sure, so we can all learn about this.
Both loaves look excellent to me. Definitely light and airy. Not underproofed at all. And certainly neither look gummy. It looks to me like you're doing the right things here. So the question becomes one of subjectivity -- if one loaf was "too soft" while the other was "perfect" in your opinion, then I'd say stick with the method that gives you the perfect loaf.
Each of us has a different idea of the perfect loaf, and if you're anything like me, then that idea of perfection is a constantly changing and elusive thing. A phantom. Ephemeral. It can never be caught, so we must content ourselves with the chase.
Keep up the good work!
Trevor
Thank you all for your thoughts and wisdom. Bread making as an "ephemeral" art - love that idea. I really enjoy the process as each time it's unique. I'm planning on trying a few experiments on the questions this raised. If I find out anything interesting I'll be sure to share.
Best Wishes,
Lynn (ie. Dough Jo)