Hi,
I was experimenting yesterday and had a disappointing result. I would like to understand why.
My receipt was:
300g flour, 216 water (72% hydration), 4.5g salt (1.5%) and 15g starter (5%) with 100% hydration.
I used 60% bread flour and 40% whole wheat. I did an autolysis for an hour then kneed for 5 minutes. The I did 3-4 S&F with 40-60 minutes rest. I let it in room temperature (18-19oC) for 20 hours. After the BF, dough was very smooth and bubbly. Then shaping and proofing for 3 hours.
When I turn the baneton to put the dough in the oven the dough was very flat and didn't rise in the oven.
Could someone figure out with the above info what might have been wrong? Too much BF? Too little proofing?
Thanks
My guess would be that you have overproofed it and that is the reason why it just flattened when you tipped it from the banneton. You total time was roughly about 24 hours at room temp what was way too long. With 40% of whole wheat flour the BF was much faster than only with white flour so according to my experience it would be enough from 6-10 hours at room temp to complete the whole process.
Happy baking!
Joze
is roughly one to twenty so the timing will be long. I think the early S & F's are throwing you off...
I would try this... change this:
The I did 3-4 S&F with 40-60 minutes rest. I let it in room temperature (18-19oC) for 20 hours.
To something more like this:
I let it stand for about 4 hours and then did a S&F. After it started to puff up just a little bit, I did another one. Watched it and in a few hours did another S&F while it was rising when it seemed to rise more out than up. Did another S&F and if felt puffy enough to go into shaping. After a short 10min rest, dough was shaped and allowed to final proof. The whole process took about 18 hours. Think of the S&F's as being a tool during the long rising to restore form and strength to the fermenting dough. :)
Seems a bit long even for just 5% starter.
I've done 24 hours no knead with 1% starter but then a 1hr final proof.
You've done 20 hours at 5% with a 3 hour final proof.
At 72% hydration and such a long bulk ferment you really didn't need to work it much either. Time would have done everything. Perhaps 1 fold at the half way mark would be alright but really not much more. And definitely a shorter to all proof after all that.
Ok I understand the points.
But what causes the bread to be flat? Doesn't it have strong gluten structure? After the S&Fs I did the window pane test and it was fine. So I guessed gluten was developed. Does the longer fermentation time "deteriorates" gluten?
If over fermented it will attack the gluten and break it down. If over proofed it goes beyond it's stretching point and collapses in on itself even if gluten development is ok. It's a balance of both. You wish to ferment long enough for a nice tasty and aerated bread and final proof just enough so it doesn't collapse. Both should be done before the gluten deteriorates.
I have used the above formula (with 30% whole wheat not 40%) with 20% starter and 12 hours fermentation time (almost same temperature). The results where very good.
That's why I experiment with 5% starter. I though it will need more than 24 hours, but after 24 hours I saw the dough was doubled, that's why I shaped.
For 20% starter would be more like 4-6 hours. 10% starter more like 8-10 hours. But we've got to take into consideration that all our starters are different and varying temperatures. Doubling is a good visual guide but also try to go by feel. Don't forget that the bread has to be done before the gluten breakdown but at the same time you wish for a longer fermentation time for flavour and better crumb. So you wish to take the fermentation time to the outer limits but not don't go over. The more you have done the bulk ferment the shorter the final proof.
Going by feel will help a lot. I look for an aerated dough that is billowy and elastic. Once this has been achieved i'll shape and final proof. It doesn't always mean it has doubled in the bulk ferment though. Different types of dough don't always have to double. Some less and some more. This is where going by feel (once you've got the feel for it) is better. For the final proofing you want just under doubled. And again different doughs will differ to how much they should rise for final proofing. An all white dough - just under doubled. A higher percentage of wholegrain will be more like 80-85%. But again going by feel is would be better.