flat sourdough bread

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kristinnovowels on 16 Oct 2016 at 16:20

hi all,

i know there are few topics on this but there doesn't seem to be one that quite fits my issue.

i've made sourdough about 4 or 5 times now and each time it comes out flat (and the scoring seems to disappear into the dough)

my starter is strong enough, i feed it a few days into baking, 2x a day, and it always rises quite a lot (at least 2x in volume) and my levain also rises enough.

i think my problem is with the bulk fermentation and possibly cold proof. i can't figure out how long to do it for. i've experimented a few different ways: cutting back on bulk fermenting (not sour enough, still flat), bulk fermenting for a very long time (20 hours, still flat), proofing shorter, etc. i live in new york but my home is around 70-ish degrees, so it's not too cold. i am using a recipe with 78% hydration (https://www.theperfectloaf.com/beginners-sourdough-bread). i guess i just can't tell when the bulk ferment and cold proof *should* be done - it does not seem that my dough is really "doubling" in size as it should be.

the flavor is good and sour enough, but (as superficial as it sounds) the look of my bread makes me so sad! it's not as pretty as everyone elses!

any advice is much appreciated!

yes, so this last time i bulk fermented for about 18 hours at room temperature but didn't get any bubbles and then refrigerated overnight.

when i did the "poke" test it seemed that it was proofed enough (pressed in about half an inch and it bounced back slowly)

are reading it right. You need to match the temp of the printed recipe, plus your ambient room temp, for the bulk fermentation.  then compare the final rise temp w your retarded temp. 

thanks! i've tried about 5 hours before and also got a similar looking result :-/ but maybe then i proofed in the fridge too long.

i will study this table and try again

I'm a newbie in bread making, so I might be completely wrong. That said...

I think it looks over proofed. I believe the proper time to bake is one of the most delicates points to get :). When over proofed the gluten structure becomes weak resulting in less oven rise, tighter crumb and sometimes, some big holes near to the top.

 I'd try baking earlier.

Also 78% is a wet dough. Depending on how much water your flour can handle (and this varies enormously) it's not easy to handle. Tending to spread easily when took out of the banneton, leading to a flat profile.

Perhaps you can reduce hydration next time to see how it comes, try 70% and go up from there. My first bread was 65%.

happy baking

 

 

 

thanks for your reply! everyone on this forum is so friendly and quick-to-reply. i've lurked around the forum a lot before (and used the pineapple juice starter trick) but this is my first post.

it seems that consensus is that it's overproofed and also too wet. i will try a lower moisture dough next time

 

When the levain has peaked, add the whole wheat and rye flours plus 100g of the bread flour with 200g of the recipe water to build the levain further for your cold temps.  

Then when that larger levain is peaking in activity, add the rest of the dough ingredients.  Then follow the recipe.

Increasing the levain should help speed up the whole process and you might come in with the right times.  Or at least know how it is progressing.  If the build takes a long time, so will the dough but you will at least see some progress with the yeast and the lag time for the dough to start rising should be shorter than what you are experiencing.  (It may still take longer than the recipe)

At the same time pull off a small ping pong portion of the main dough and let it rise inside a small narrow glass so you can judge the rising and the bubbles easier.  Keep the two close together so they share temperatures and  folding, shaping etc.  What you do to the big dough, do to the little one.  The larger mass may be faster so I would advise giving a light oil coating to the jar and sticking it along the edge of the dough in the dough container.

EDIT:  You don't have to add all the water in the recipe, hold back some and only add as you need to moisten the dough while stirring up the final dough.  Sourdoughs tend to get "wetter" as they ferment so having it a little stiffer than what you are used to with an instant yeast dough should be about right.

thanks for your answer - everyone on this forum is so prompt and helpful!

i was thinking i might need to increase the levain. actually, i am thinking i need to readjust the whole recipe. these are good tips, i will let you know how it goes next time

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GrowingStella on 16 Oct 2016 at 19:40

I would like also in on your problem.

i am a beginner too and can tell you from my experience, beginners are not ready to work with such highly hydrated dough. I also started with the recipe form Maurizio, I even increased the hydration the first time I attempted to do the loaf. It did not even get to the oven lol...The next day, i reduced the hydration to 76% and I was bake to bake it, I did get open crumb, the interior was full of wholes and it was very very tasty, but also flat!

Then, while researching on my issues with the dough, shaping techniques, etc. I found Trevor's website, and i realized how silly of me was to attempt such a high hydration dough - my skills were not and are not ready for this dough - the dough handling is what needs practice and time.

you did not mention how did you do the stretch and fold, how was the shaping? Were you able to get a nice tight surface on the boule, while shaping it?

Also how did you bake it, temperature, time you preheated the oven, what did you use to bake it (Dutch oven, lodge combo cooker, baking stone)?  How did you archive the stream in the oven for the first 20 min? 

As to scoring - its not easy and again, from my experience, it needs practice :-)

let me know more info and I can at least guide you in your first steps. 

Pick a recipe with 65-66% hydration ratio  of the bread dough and you will see the difference, as it will be much easier to shape it and get a better result. I can also tell you, that it's totally possible to get a beautiful open crumb even with the stiffer dough, so go for it, get more comfortable with this type of dough and then gradually increase the hydration ratio in the future bakes.

As to my own experience, I too need to work on my skills, and get a better oven spring. But from what I understand, for my first loaves, I was pretty successful.

 

good luck and happy baking!

hi stella! thanks for your answer

i didnt realize that 78% was so highly hydrated but it makes sense - people here seem to have formed a consensus that this is way too high for a beginner!

i've been able to bake, but it's looked like the picture i posted lol

stretch and fold went well, i thought. shaping seemed much more difficult than the videos i watched so it makes sense. i followed his directions pretty much spot on with the exception of the timing - baked @ 475 for 20m in a dutch oven, reduced to 450 for 30m

scoring has gotten easier now that i bought a razor, but it just disappears (which i assume is due to the hydration)

i will try to find a recipe with 65% hydration - do you have any website recommendations?

this is a tricky part of dealing with the dough too. I am getting a bit better with every new bake, but it's far from perfect. I know theoretically, that if you slash your loaf at 90 degrees angel - you will get them almost even out with the sirface of the dough, but they will have a different crust; and to get an "ear", yiu have to slash at a more accrue angle, I believe it's 30 degrees.

hoLe this helps

i am happy ton help, if I can. If I know the answers or to share my experience, I'll gladly do that! :-)

The website i posted the link for has the 65% recipe. I think if you just follow it closely, you will improve. I am very confident because it helped me a lot! I just have to keep practicing but stiffer dough helps you get more comfortable with jandling the dough. And yes shaping is the most difficult part and it will take some time to polish it :-)

i use King Arthur flours and very happy with it (both Bread flour and WW, and I use arrowhead mills rye flour). 

 

Good luck!

As you increase the hydration %, gluten development takes on additional importance with respect to the final shape of your loaves, and it's easier to develop the gluten when there's more of it to begin with. Shaping can matter more too. 

hi arjon

i was following this recipe https://www.theperfectloaf.com/beginners-sourdough-bread/ so a mix of flours (mostly white, some whole wheat, some rye) but i expect the hydration % is too high. i've had trouble shaping and getting a really smooth top (it seems to always kind of sink into my banneton when i got ready for the final proof) 

or when you said "white", were you referring to AP? All flours are not the same, This includes all BFs not being the same as well as all APs. The difference can easily be a couple of %, which may not seem like much, but the difference between say 10% and 12% isn't 2% more gluten; it's 20% more. 

The recipe you followed uses a particular flour. If you substituted something with a different gluten %, you shouldn't automatically expect a similar result. 

Also, no matter what the recipe name says, 78% hydration is not, at least IMO, a beginner SD recipe.