Looking for a little help here. I'm doing sourdough. I've got a healthy starter, and when I ferment without refrigeration, my loaves are fine. When I refrigerate, however, they deflate when I place them in the oven. My recipe and procedures are:
- 170g Starter
- 300 g Water
- 424g Red Mill Bread Flour
- 70g King Arthur Organic Wheat Flour
- 3/4 Tsp Sea Salt
- 73% Hydration
- Autolyse for 1 hour. Mix 4 minutes on stand mixer at 1, knead 4 minutes on stand mixer at 2. Allow to double -- approximately 3 hours. Deflate, shape boule, tightening top. Place in round banneton dusted with rice flour. Rise 6 hours to top of banneton. Set banneton in cake carrier with lid and place in fridge overnight (this is usually around 6:00 pm). Take out of fridge at 8:00 am. Transfer to peel on parchment paper. Place in oven on stone at 450 F. Deflation takes place immediately.
Changes I've tried to the above process:
- I've reduced the rise time to 3 hours, bringing the dough up to the third-from-the-top rung of the banneton. I've slashed and not-slashed the loaf. I've tried lower hydration at 64% and 67%.
Regardless of any of the above changes, the loaf still deflates. Again, I don't have this problem using the above process without refrigeration.
Any thoughts? I'm tired of having pizza crust for breakfast!
You allow it to fully proof then refrigerate. It'll over proof in the fridge. Refrigerate straight after shaping into the banneton. Should be ready the next morning. If not you can always finish off at room temperature.
Will it still acidify? That's what I'm hoping to get out of refrigeration, not just to store it overnight.
Thanks for the help!
Slows down fermentation for more flavour. So yes it will. The time and environment will encourage more acetic acid bringing out more tang. But you don't want to put it in fully proofed as it will carry on proofing. Shape, place in plastic bag and refrigerate.
I think Lechem's diagnosis and treatment are spot on. I usually bulk ferment about 3 hrs at room temp, then put into banneton and straight into fridge overnight - approx 10hrs - and bake in the morning. Usually this is straight from the fridge, but if it looks like it may need a bit longer I'll give it an hour or 2 at room temp first.
At room temperature when it takes 3 to double at the bulk ferment seems like a long time either way.
You have quite a high percentage of starter. A bit of a rethink, I think.
1. Bulk ferment till the dough is aerated, billowy and stretchy (pinch the dough and test by gently pulling) but not necessarily doubled. Feel for a change in the dough.
2. Don't fully deflate when shaping. Deflate enough to knock the big bubbles out and to work with but not fully.
3. Refrigerate straight away or soon after shaping. Will proof slowly in the fridge.
4. Add some wholegrains and lower the hydration of your starter to improve tang.
Thanks all. I'll give these a try and report back on Friday.
I give all of my loaves 30-45 minutes at room temp after shaping, before they go into a 40-42F fridge for 12-18 hours. And for me, the percentage of whole grains (and how the bulk ferment went) is one of the main factors in just how much time they get at room temp first.
Okay, here are the results. I used the same recipe as was posted in the original post at 73% hydration. I autolysed for 1 hour, mixed 4 minutes on stand mixer at 1, kneaded 4 minutes on stand mixer at 2, then allowed to double (maybe a little less) at 2 hours instead of 3. I didn't completely deflate as mentioned in Lechem's post. I shaped the boule, tightening the top, then placed in the rice-flour dusted banneton. I immediately put the basket in a cake carrier and into the fridge at around 3:00 pm. At 8:00 am the following day (17 hours later), I removed the basket, the loaf had risen to about three rungs from the top, and allowed to sit on the counter while the oven preheated to 450 F (about 1/2 hour). I transferred the loaf to a parchment papered peel, quickly slashed the loaf and placed into the oven on a stone.
The loaf began to deflate a bit prior to slashing, and a bit more after slashing. It continued to deflate a bit more in the oven, but only about half as much as it deflated yesterday. The loaf showed some oven spring, but it's still quite a bit more deflated than I would like and a bit more dense than I'd like, too. See the pics below.
Tomorrow, I'm thinking of maybe letting the loaf sit in the basket after shaping at room temp for a half-hour before placing into the fridge. Any other advice you can throw at me would be greatly appreciated!
And atleast it is a step in the right direction. A few more tweaks here and there to home in on the perfect loaf you're aiming for. What does it taste like?
1. Incorporate a pre-shape, let rest for 20-30 minutes (or until the dough visibly relaxes) then shape again into the banneton.
2. Place the seam side down so it will form a natural scoring then no need to score when you turn it out of the banneton. I think it looks good to this way.
3. Refrigerate for 10-12 hours. That should be enough!
4. The flour you are using just might not be able to take this hydration so you might wish to drop the hydration or use a stronger flour. What's the protein content of the one you are using?
However your bake looks really good. A nice crumb. A good crust. And I do see lots of blisters. Nice!
Oops just reread your post and you're using good flour so won't be number 4
Thanks again Lechem! Yes, it's heading in the right direction, but I'm looking for perfection!
So to answer your questions:
It's still a little bland. I mean, it's good, but missing a distinctive sour flavor. It's slight, but not as heavy as I want it.
I will try this. Can you comment on what it would help with?
This is an interesting technique. I'll give it a try. I've been disappointed with my slashes. They don't seem to come out with that deep, craggy character, but rather a smooth mark on the top. I use a razor blade and score about 1/4" deep. Would your technique help with this? What can I do to get this look?
I'll do this. It'll probably make my schedule easier. I'm still concerned about the mild character of the sourness, though, even with the longer times.
I've tried a couple of flours. First, I used King Arthur's Organic Bread Flour which is supposed to be around 12.7%. I recently switched to Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour, which they say has a range of 12-14% protein. 14% of my flour bill is made up of Whole Wheat, either from King Arthur or Red Mill. Those come in around 13%. Do you have other recommendations? I'm entertaining trying some of the flours from Carolina Ground ( http://carolinaground.com ), but I'm trying to perfect my technique before trying those.
Thanks again for all of your help thus far!
Just throwing out ideas here which you can incorporate...
So it tastes a little bland. You can either keep your starter at 100% hydration but drop the percentage to 10%. But then you'll need to adjust the bulk ferment as it'll take longer. So a little rearranging of the recipe will be involved. Less starter but a longer bulk ferment!
Or keep the amount of starter you are using but drop the hydration. You can rearrange the final recipe to keep the final hydration. Your bulk ferment time won't adjust as much as the first way.
So to recap... Either less liquid starter and a longer bulk ferment. Or keeping the higher amount of starter but at a lower hydration.
In both cases you should add some wholegrain into your starter.
A preshape before a final shape helps build strength so it will benefit from this and I hope not deflate as much.
Scoring a high hydration dough is difficult. Not my favourite of things. If you hold the blade straight down it'll widen but will open up flat. If you catch my drift. Holding the blade at an angle will help to make ears. It is harder to make craggy scoring with higher hydration loaves. See what this other way produces.
As long as your flour is 12% + it'll suit the hydration you're doing. But the higher the hydration the less room for error. Or any tiny error is big when you go high hydration. Make sure you're developing the gluten properly. It is important to get the fermentation right and when going by feel get to know the subtle changes the dough goes through when it is ready. Remember... Aireated, billowy and stretchy. It is a big breakthrough when you can identify these subtle changes.
If I were you I'd keep the starter ratio but drop the hydration and make it up in the final dough so this doesn't throw your bulk ferment times off by a lot. A lower hydration starter strengthens the dough too due to its higher acetic acid.
Thanks again for the points! For my next batch, I'll try lower hydration on the starter and the loaf (I'll go down into the low 60s for the loaf). Do you have recommendations for the starter hydration and flour formulation? As I have it now, it's pretty simple:
100g Starter/100g Water/100g Bread Flour - 100% hydration
I pull 170g of vigorous starter for the dough. As to your 10% thought, is that 10% of the entire flour/water bill (currently 21% at 170g of starter), or 10% of the flour bill alone (currently at 17% at 85g flour in 170g of starter)?
To...
Flour 500g (400g bread flour, 100g whole wheat)
Water 340g
Salt 10g
Starter 150g @ 80% hydration (67g water + 83g flour)
(Close to 70% hydration)
Starter Build: 18g of your 100% hydration starter + 58g water + 74g flour (60g bread flour, 14g whole wheat)
Leave to mature and once ready proceed onto the main recipe
Autolyse all the flour and water for one hour.
Sprinkle the salt over the dough, add the mature starter and mix in your machine till full gluten formation.
Bulk ferment till ready. Make sure it is billowy, aireated and feels right. Make sure it has elasticity. At 30% starter it should take around 3 hours but go by feel!
Pre-shape and bench rest till it relaxes. Don't over shape or tighten too much. This is a gentle shaping. You're telling the dough what the final shape it'll be. Giving it strength.
Final shape. OK to tighten up more but don't compromise the skin.
Final proof in the banneton seam side down. You can leave out at room temperature for 15-20 minutes then refrigerate for 10-12 hours.
Next morning bake in preheated oven straight from the fridge. It should be ready by then.
Wow! I can't wait to try this! Thanks! I'll give it a shot and report back Sunday. Have a great weekend!
This is a work in progress. I've tried my best to incorporate all the ideas we have discussed but without having tried it myself it is still at the trial stage. Go by feel. Watch the dough and not the clock. We'll see what the result is and take it from there.
We have the lower hydration starter with more wholegrain. This should help with the dough strength and bring out more tang. The overall hydration is lower too. The autolyse should help with the gluten formation.
Make sure you incorporate the lower hydration starter into the dough well. It should be fine but obviously a liquid hydration starter is easier.
Otherwise just give it your best shot. It's always good to watch videos to get ideas and incorporate them into your bake. A good website is http://www.breadwerx.com
Got some great info there.
I look forward to seeing the results.
Enjoy your weekend.