Hi all.
I'm making like my 12th batch of bread (good breads til now:). Learning...
So far I've been following a recipe of a white sourdough heart bread (64,8%).
As the recipe, I've been using a mixer: 1 minute mix | 20 min Autolyse | 4 min knead (mixer).
Today I choose to get my hands on. I must say that it seems to be a good choice. For the first time I felt and saw the dough developing, which helped me a lot to know the dough.
Anyway, I loved to knead by hand! And did knead to a more developed dough than the ones made in the mixer. I've gone until a cool "window pane" :)
When using the mixer this dough was not so developed at this stage.
Back to the recipe I did 2 SaF at 50min intervals.
The question is: Having developed the dough further at this initial stage, can be "harmful" to a sourdough bread?
I felt much easier to manipulate the dough having done this.
I'm asking here, before the final result. So far the dough looks great, it's now in last bulk stage, retarded in the fridge... So only tomorrow I'll see how it turns...
Thanks
Vk
Well my dog doesn't like it when I knead her. :)
Actually you can knead wheat dough a long time and still not hurt it unless you're packing in the flour. Machines can over knead, hands do not.
I think you will see with your results that hand kneading is not only fun, your breads will improve too. For just a loaf or two it's such a bother to clean a mixer. :)
Good to know. I foresee a lot of fun then. :)
Much better than clean the mixer.
I think you are right, the bread should improve. The dough does look great so far.
I watched a video linked from this site, and used that technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOjSp5_YiF0
The flour was not packed at all. The dough developed beautifully into a smooth, fluffy, nice dough. :D
I've read a phrase somewhere like "We don;t want a very developed dough with this long fermentation breads, we want it to develop during the fermentation" So I was uncertain if I could go all the way until window pane.
Doing this, I felt I could even push the hydration further, as the dough was much easier to handle. Let's see..
Thanks Mini Oven. You r always there for me :)
vk
ps: I never hit my dog :)
And she's very polite... :)
cheers.
I don't hit my dog either (where did that come from?) but she's sensitive about her belly. Good video. Takes a while to get going especially with a bad net connection like I have.
I tend to let the dough rest after mixing so the gluten can start some of the work before I knead.
Mini
"I don't hit my dog either (where did that come from?)"
Sorry, that came from my bad english. You see, when talking about dough, the word for kneading in portuguese is "sovar", which can be also used to refer to someone beating other. But I didn't think you hit your dog, I though it was a joke, which it was, but a different one... I was not aware of the "massage" meaning of kneading. :)
I do let it rest before kneading also (autolyse, right?) I used the kneading technique after that.
They are about to get to the oven, let's see.
thx
;)
Vicente.
ps: I found this youtube playlist from the same guy, cool stuff. A very nice one on brioches...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCqgA62lgCxh-DTD3yzUYW80Pd2WMVMfW
Well, it turns out very good. In some aspects my bests results.
Although, I had a problem with the dough sticking to the baking sheet, preventing a proper rise, especially, but not only, in the borders, resulting in a flatter bottom then desired.
Funny thing I used rice flour, as I read it's "unstickable" stuff...
And the rice flour made a different crust in the bottom, very crispy, grainy, almost to hard. I don't think I like this...
But I got a very nice crumb, my bigger holes so far. A great crust that is lasting crispy longer (best crust ever). A nice color. And it tastes... delicious.
Also I found my flour. Here we do not have such a diversity of flours to choose from. I've being using a italian "00" flour, and experimenting some others.
This bread was made with a local organic white wheat flour. Which has 14% protein, and it did make a nicer loaf.
Here some photos:
Thanks Mini :)
Should have mentioned that earlier. What you need to do is add another SaF during the bulk rise. That will slightly shorten the final rise. Depending on the dough temperature, you may want to reduce the SaF to 45 min. Gentle folding just to get the dough stretched and taunt and back into shape to avoid those drooping shoulders or "corners" on the bottom edge. Handling will also help prevent the sticking. A quick rub with flour before letting the dough rest should take care of everything.
How are you resting the dough for the final rise? On counter, or cloth?
How are you steaming the bake?
The loaves look lovely.
It's a shame that the dough stuck... Otherwise it would have been my best batch I think.
So usually (as in this batch) I do the final rise in the banneton. This time, I proofed the battards in the cloth.
I use an iron skillet with some stones inside. While the oven is heating, I heat the skillet in the stove, when it is really hot I transfer it to the lower level in the oven with the stones inside, so it keep heating.
Just before putting the loaves, I add a little boiling water to the skillet. A huge amount of steam is produced. After Ioaves are loaded I add more boiling water and close the door. When all water evaporates I add even another amount, this is usually after 10-15 minutes.
But I did worse...
I'm baking in baking sheets. So after I have transferred the dough to those sheets (floured) I decided they were not really ready to bake, than I let them on the sheets proofing a little more, that turns out to be not so little... So the final, final proof were done in the sheet. I'm pretty sure this has been a great contributor to the dough sticking. Was stupid. Also, more dumbness... Willing to not add much flour when handling the dough I hold back in the flour in the bottom of the loaf and in the sheet, without thinking that this flour does not get incorporated, so there is no point in worrying about using to much of it.
Also I think the idea of another gentle SaF is a great idea.
I did change a lot of variables at the same time in this batch. One of them was the time table. The recipe calls for no retarding, but to fit better my schedule, since some batches I've being retarding the final raise in the fridge, So after shaped. They sleep in the fridge and get to the oven in the morning. This was working fine, but I lost a bit of control of the final rise and the right time to bake. And the "poke" test in a cold dough is... well at least different, but maybe useless, I don't know...
So this time I did it differently.
I retarded part of the bulk. Some what like this:
- mix/autolyse/knead
- 50 min SaF
- 50 min SaF and fridge.
next morning (like 9~10 hrs later) I took the dough from the fridge.
- pre shape
- some bench rest
- shape.
- proffing, it took like 3 1/2 hours. It's cold and the dough was even colder.
- oven.
So to incorporate your suggested extra SaF, I think it would be the first thing in the morning, then, after 45~50 min, pre-shape/shape/proof. What do you think?
Well after all they look good, and taste delicious.
Anyway, I think most of my improvements came from the flour, and some from the hand kneading. Also the extended time in fermentation, added to the flavour and the crumb, I'm guessing.
It's really fun to make breads!
;)
cheers
track of what you did, hope you are keeping a notebook. Anyway....
Something does stand out to me in steaming. I will repeat and add my changes and comments.
"Just before putting the loaves, I add a little boiling water to the skillet. A huge amount of steam is produced. After Ioaves are loaded I add more boiling water and close the door. When all water evaporates I add even another amount, this is usually after 10-15 minutes."
As I'm putting the loaves, I add a little boiling water to the skillet and load the skillet and loaves at the same time. To prevent loss of heat & steam when opening the door again. A huge amount of steam is produced. After Ioaves are loaded I add more boiling water and close the door.
When all water evaporates (It doesn't evaporate but you can no longer see water droplets, danger, steam is still in the oven and can burn when opening door.)
I add even another amount, this is usually after 10-15 minutes. More steam is escaping the oven than what is added, skip this step and just release the steam by opening the door and closing it. Don't risk burning yourself by adding water.
I hope this helps.
Mini
Do you believe my steaming is not satisfactory? If so, where can you see this?
Well... no notebook yet.
And it is true, I'm aways burnt. Definitely I need a oven mitt...
:)
In the crust surface shine or lack of shine. Taking into account the treatment and flour use on the dough.