One year old starter not rising

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katarina_kne on 14 Mar 2016 at 02:42

Dear all, 

I have a problem with my 1 year old starter and would appreciate any insights and advises.

I am using a year old starter. I usually feed it in 1:10:10 ratio as I have experienced that this kind of ration gives less sour taste.I never actually do the real counting, I just eyball it, but the ration is something like that. For this reason I always keep very small amount of mother starter. I bake 2-3 times a week so my starer is very alive.

However, on Saturday I must have done something wrong as my starter does not grow at all nor shows any signs of fermentation. This is the time table since saturday:

Saturady morning: took one spoon (about 13g starter) of starter and fed it with 125 gr of all puropse flour and 125 gr of water. After 13h it showed very little bubbles. I risked and used it to make bread - which of course didn't rise at all when I baked on Sunday.

Saturday night: I used one spoon of that was left of the bread and fed it with whole grad flour, about 80 g of flour and 80g  of water. Left overnigh.

Sunday morning: my overnight starter had one or two bubbles. I gave it a shot of a rye flour and by sunday night it again showed very little action. I took 25 gr of what I had and fed it with 25 gr of rye flour and 25 gr of water. Left it overnight.

Monday moring: absolutely no activity at all. No bubbles, no rise. Doesn't smell like it should.

I really really wouldn't like to grow a new starer from scratch. Please advise me on how to revive and save what I already have.

Thanks in advance,

Katarina

to Saturday... 

I hope you have some back up starter because I think the water could be fault.  Also where is the starter kept between uses?  Let the starter you have now (the older one) just sit uncovered (to encourage chlorine to evaporate) and don't discard or add any flour until it ferments or risk overfeeding.  Let some water stand out in a pitcher for a day or two and use that for feedings and bread baking.

By one year old starter, do you mean you've been using it weekly for a year or was it stored for a year and now using it? Just to be clear on that.  :)

If you need the bread, spread out the dough and spike it with instant yeast, add a few teaspoons of water (or use a handy mister) to wet the yeast to dissolve and then roll up the dough and knead to blend in the yeast.  Let it rest 30 min and knead a little to make sure the dough and yeast are well fed and blended.  Then treat the dough like a yeasted one.

Mini

 

Dear Mini,

You always come to rescue me with my problems. 

By 'one year old start' I mean the one I've been using weekly-exactly the one you helped me grow last spring :). I've had many adventures with it. Unfortunately, I don't have a backup and no I'm forced to buy (bad) bread from the store. 

I've kept the starter on the shelf at room temp.between the feedings.

I must have first underfed it and then overfed it. 

I will keep it at room temp, uncovered. How long should I wait for the fermentation signs. I'm afraid of underfeeding.

Katarina

the room temperature and how it speeds and slows down starter fermentation between feeds and overnight.  I would cover it back up after 24 hours to keep it from drying out.  

When I have zapped starters with chlorinated (too much) water, it was always the top of the starter that stayed a little active.  You might also try using a shallow dish as opposed to a deep one for right now so that there is more surface area.

 If zapped too much, parts of the starter come back (there are a multitude variety of yeast and bacteria colonies) but often the entire starter profile has changed, certain aromas gone and other ones in their place.  

Underfed then overfed sounds interesting, why would you think underfed first?  Wanna fess up?  (Want to confess to some starter abuse?)   :)   

I think there is more danger in overfeeding and diluting a starter practically out of existence than underfeeding it.  When underfeeding one or a few times, the starter culture has ways of defending itself.  Yeast number drop but they can be increased quickly over a few feeds with no discarding.   Gentle patience and giving the starter time to use up the first food after neglect is key.  Stir often to distribute the food.

Overfeeding on the other hand raises pH and if there aren't enough bacteria present to lower pH into the sweet spot for wild yeast, too long a waiting time gives invading species (also found in the flour) a chance to grow in the starter most often resulting in mould and odd smells.  If something in the water prevents bacteria from lowering the pH, any surviving yeast have a hard time on their own right away.  

The speed at which this all happened is clue to sudden change in something, Temps or water or something.  

Starting up a new starter is a good idea and as unscientific as it sounds, it will happen faster this time.  You know what you're looking for and your kitchen is full of good bugs.  

Mini

I have uncovered the lid of my jar after your advice, but I have seen that the surface was drying out after several hours. I have instinctively added a little water and stir it up. My starter responded with several bubbles so that must have been a good move.

I am approaching 24 h since I last fed it (it's 6 pm is SE Europe) so I wonder what to do next? Since I'm quite positive that we're dealing with overfeeding or overdillution, I believe I shouldn't add more flour to it. Maybe a bit more water? or just leave it until it bubles up more and starts to rise. There is no rise yet, just 5 or 6 bubbles on the surface. I would appreciate an insight on what to do now!

I think I was mistaken to say that I underfed starter first. As you know English is my second language. What I meant was that I might have put too much flour to the starter that wasn't fully ripe. And then I did it again. So basically an unripe starter was stuffed with huge amount of fresh flour.

This starer has gone a lot with me in the past year. I neglected it during the summer (it's just too hot to bake :/) and my husband accidentally throw it in the sink and spilled hot water over it. I literately cried when it happened. However, I've scraped what was left in the sink and somehow I've gotten i back to life :)

I hope I could do the same again this time as well :)

I don't understand the concept.  It seems to me that if that were possible then why can I make enough dough for three large loaves of bread with a golf-ball sized lump of my active starter?

And, as much as Mini's never done me wrong either, I cannot imagine there's ever enough chlorine in tap water to effect the growth of yeast.  Is there scientific documentation of this somewhere?  I fear we're off into the realm of pseudo-science.

No scientific response here but I would think it would fall under overdilution. If you put in too much flour at a too rapid rate, the bacteria doesn't have the time to divide enough to populate all of the new flour before more flour is added so you end up with less and less bacteria until it becomes completely overwhelmed/diluted and cannot keep up. At least, this is my take on it. 

I've never heard of "overdilution" as a term.  Your response in "Dilution" still leaves me wondering:  How can making enough dough for three 1.5lb loaves happen from a golf-ball sized lump of SD starter if "overdilution" kills the microorganisms?   I would think that each microorganism "eats" (i.e., metabolizes) just enough flour as it will at a rate determined by such external factors as temperature.

Is there a microbiologist reading this?

I think this is just what happened here. I've fed too much flour to a starter that wasn't ripe. After that I did it again. I've given it too much flour before the microorganisms "ate" the previous flour. I am by no means a microbiologist or a scientist (lawyer writing here) and with the time, I have come to simplify my sourdough practice as much as I could. What I did with my starter and my breads (I have just stared making breads without a recipe, just by following an idea in my head) because somehow it worked. 

Until it didn't three days ago. I am not emotionally attached to my starer per se (I would say I am more attached to the bread it "produces") I just don't want to go through all that complication of growing a new starter from scratch.

I'described in my answer to Mini what I did with my starter this afternoon (adding a bit of a water) and it gave me some bubbles. I hope It's not yet dead.

I think we can safely cross chlorine the list as I am pretty sur th water is of excellent quality (at least for bread making purposes).

I didn't say that it killed the organisms, I said that they may have been reduced in number by repeated partial discards and adding flour before the organisms had a chance to populate the entire dough. More time given between feelings may have avoided this.

For example, if you start with 100 bacteria and you feed it, within the time you allow it to grow, it multiplies to 150. Then you throw half away and feed it again, you are down to 75 little critters. It grows by half to 113, then you divide by half again and feed, so now you are down to 56. Keep going like that and over time, the bacteria just can't populate the amount of flour it is given in the time allowed. 

When making a loaf of bread, you are taking an amount that has a huge amount of bacteria and it is at top peak to keep eating and reproducing which is where the gasses come from. I am not a microbiologist so all of this is a wild guess on my part but it makes sense to me. By the way, not sure if overdilution is a word but I am sticking to it. ;-)

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Mini Oven on 15 Mar 2016 at 02:57

Hi Kat!  Good to hear the starter is coming back.  if it doesn't rise any more than 1/3, then that was the peak.  Remove some starter to feed and put the rest of the "1/3" into the refrigerator as back-up.  

If you taste the starter, it should  taste quite sour (if not, then give it more time) which means it is lopsided toward the bacteria.  Removing some and feeding now should stimulate the yeast further.  Be sure to wait for the rise, making it thick enough to hold gas bubbles.  I wouldn't push a 1 to 10 feeding yet but more like a 1 to 4.  Giving it a chance to peak  before feeding again.  

it should soon be back onto the old schedule and fully recuperated.  :)     

When that happens, throw away the chilled back-up and use to flavour a yeasted bread.  Make a new back up from the newly recuperated starter.  Dry some and/ or thicken some and store in the fridge for emergencies.  

Mini

That looks absolutely beautiful! Awesome crumb too! I bet it is delicious!

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katarina_kne on 17 Mar 2016 at 01:17

Coming from experienced bakers, that mans a world to me!