Starter time peak and bulk fermentation + proofing
Hi all!
I fed my starter earlier today and noticed that it peaked in 3 hours. Does this time frame relate in any way to the amount of time I should bulk ferment and proof ?
I would imagine that indicates that you have a very active starter, so it probably will rise your bread dough more quickly too. Keep an eye on the bulk ferment for how long the dough takes to double, and use the poke test (early and often) in the final proof, and let us know what happens!
vigorous a starter or levain. What is equally as important is,what f;our is used, how much levain you use, as well as, the temperature. In the Summer when the kitchen is 84 F I can use 8% prefermented flour and have the dough rise just as fast as using 20% prefermented flour in the winter when the kitchen is 68 F. Faster comes in 4 flavors
Higher temperature, whole grain flour, larger levain amount and how active the levain. Hydration also is a work with higher being a bit faster too.
(starter, water, flour) as the starter is fed, then it would mean you should be bulking only about 2/3 into the time it takes to peak or about 2 hours or when the dough has about doubled in volume (depends on the flour and temp, and if folding you aren't looking to double, but this is a general statement using wheat.) Then degas while folding, short rest, shaping and final proof. Waiting for a bulk rise to reach the starter peak time often results in over-proofing the dough. As dough ferments the yeast populating is doubling about every 1 to 1.5 hours.
Salt will slow down fermentation, some ingredients can speed it up (like malt or some sugars) or slow fermentation or weigh down the rise so the recipe will determine the bulk and proofing times.
Your question also leaves me wondering what food ratio is used for the starter. If it peaks in 3 hours and has to wait 8 to 12 or 24 hrs for another feeding at the same temperature, it is more than likely fed too little for the amount of starter. What's the feeding and temperature? Does it stand out or is it refrigerated after feeding when showing signs of life?
I use 20% starter, 40%/40% flour and water and feed it every 8 hours. Last week it was standing out but yesterday I stored it in the fridge. Temperature varies between 65F and 80F.
Not really - I can make multiple builds starting from the same batch and have them peak in 3 hours intervals. What it does tell you is your margin of error - the faster a build peaks, the shorter the peak lasts, the more critical catching the peak becomes. The same holds true for yeasted preferments.
You might want to start out the first 10 minutes at a higher temp if you can manage it.
The brown underside and pale top means the heat distribution could be better, more heat on top. If no upper heat, try to reflect some of the bottom heat around the sides of the loaf. If using a stone, make sure the stone has room around all sides at least 3 to 4 cm, to let heat circulate in the oven. It is also possible to flip the loaf upside down on a wire shelf (naked) to brown the top of the loaf. You can also try raising the baking area in the oven.
I think you might want to lengthen the bulk rise (adding another fold for a finer crumb) and shorten the final proof a little bit or get the loaf in the oven sooner. A generous amount of flour under the loaf will prevent sticking to the counter, it can be dusted off after the bake.
The crumb looks consistent and doesn't look raw or under-baked. Congrats on the picture posting, it is almost as tricky as baking a loaf of bread! You're doing Great!
My oven goes up to 480F. Should I leave it at max for the first 10 min of baking ?
With the above loaf, in particular, the oven was preheated for an hour. That was because the proofing took a longer time than expected (using the finger poke test). Maybe the stone got too hot and thus the bottom baked faster than the top. Could this be the reason ?
I didn't use the stretch and fold method but French fold and then left it untouched for the bulk fermentation. I have a doubt here. Can I knead and also stretch and fold ? Will this make the dough too stiff ?
My oven goes up to 480F. Should I leave it at max for the first 10 min of baking ?
From the information below, I would preheat as you do, then when putting in the loaf turn up the heat 20° for 10 min, then turn it back down and watch the crust.
With the above loaf, in particular, the oven was preheated for an hour. That was because the proofing took a longer time than expected (using the finger poke test). Maybe the stone got too hot and thus the bottom baked faster than the top. Could this be the reason ?
It is very possible.
I didn't use the stretch and fold method but French fold and then left it untouched for the bulk fermentation. I have a doubt here. Can I knead and also stretch and fold ? Yes
Will this make the dough too stiff? Normally not. Don't use any flour. How stiff is the dough? If you let kneaded dough rest, like during bulk fermentation, the dough relaxes and folds are easy. However, if too much flour is in the dough or the hydration too low (same thing) the dough has a tendency to tear with folding. Anytime the dough tears, stop the stretching immediately and let the dough rest before continuing. Try using water instead of flour to handle the dough and keep the dough covered to prevent moisture loss.
low hydration is a range of hydrations around 50% for AP.
water in grams divided by flour in grams x 100
This gives a rough estimate but is also influenced by the hydration of the flour itself and the ambient humidity in the room when the flour is exposed to air for some period of time. The longer flour stands open in a room, the more it changes.
My AP is bagged in plastic and is extremely dry and absorbent. I need at least 65% hydration in my dough recipe if used fresh from the bag. That would be low hydration for my circumstances as 65% just wets the flour enough to turn into dough. Paper bagged flours will have around 15% moisture in the flour and that can vary with how it is stored on the shelf and the season. I'm sure my AP is much lower or it would mould in the bag. My guess would be it is dried to prevent condense water forming in the bag.
I would imagine that indicates that you have a very active starter, so it probably will rise your bread dough more quickly too. Keep an eye on the bulk ferment for how long the dough takes to double, and use the poke test (early and often) in the final proof, and let us know what happens!
vigorous a starter or levain. What is equally as important is,what f;our is used, how much levain you use, as well as, the temperature. In the Summer when the kitchen is 84 F I can use 8% prefermented flour and have the dough rise just as fast as using 20% prefermented flour in the winter when the kitchen is 68 F. Faster comes in 4 flavors
Higher temperature, whole grain flour, larger levain amount and how active the levain. Hydration also is a work with higher being a bit faster too.
Happy baking
(starter, water, flour) as the starter is fed, then it would mean you should be bulking only about 2/3 into the time it takes to peak or about 2 hours or when the dough has about doubled in volume (depends on the flour and temp, and if folding you aren't looking to double, but this is a general statement using wheat.) Then degas while folding, short rest, shaping and final proof. Waiting for a bulk rise to reach the starter peak time often results in over-proofing the dough. As dough ferments the yeast populating is doubling about every 1 to 1.5 hours.
Salt will slow down fermentation, some ingredients can speed it up (like malt or some sugars) or slow fermentation or weigh down the rise so the recipe will determine the bulk and proofing times.
Your question also leaves me wondering what food ratio is used for the starter. If it peaks in 3 hours and has to wait 8 to 12 or 24 hrs for another feeding at the same temperature, it is more than likely fed too little for the amount of starter. What's the feeding and temperature? Does it stand out or is it refrigerated after feeding when showing signs of life?
I use 20% starter, 40%/40% flour and water and feed it every 8 hours. Last week it was standing out but yesterday I stored it in the fridge. Temperature varies between 65F and 80F.
Not really - I can make multiple builds starting from the same batch and have them peak in 3 hours intervals. What it does tell you is your margin of error - the faster a build peaks, the shorter the peak lasts, the more critical catching the peak becomes. The same holds true for yeasted preferments.
20 min autolyse
3.5 hour bulk fermentation
20 min pre-shape + counter rest
2 hour final proofing
45 min oven @ 430F on baking stone
Lost a bit of the shape after dough sticking to counter when transferring to oven.
It is slight moist on the inside. Would like it to be drier. Should I bake longer at lower temperature ?
How does proofing look like ?
Need help with attaching pictures
To answer the Q, Yes, bake longer at 430°F.
You might want to start out the first 10 minutes at a higher temp if you can manage it.
The brown underside and pale top means the heat distribution could be better, more heat on top. If no upper heat, try to reflect some of the bottom heat around the sides of the loaf. If using a stone, make sure the stone has room around all sides at least 3 to 4 cm, to let heat circulate in the oven. It is also possible to flip the loaf upside down on a wire shelf (naked) to brown the top of the loaf. You can also try raising the baking area in the oven.
I think you might want to lengthen the bulk rise (adding another fold for a finer crumb) and shorten the final proof a little bit or get the loaf in the oven sooner. A generous amount of flour under the loaf will prevent sticking to the counter, it can be dusted off after the bake.
The crumb looks consistent and doesn't look raw or under-baked. Congrats on the picture posting, it is almost as tricky as baking a loaf of bread! You're doing Great!
Hi, MO!
My oven goes up to 480F. Should I leave it at max for the first 10 min of baking ?
With the above loaf, in particular, the oven was preheated for an hour. That was because the proofing took a longer time than expected (using the finger poke test). Maybe the stone got too hot and thus the bottom baked faster than the top. Could this be the reason ?
I didn't use the stretch and fold method but French fold and then left it untouched for the bulk fermentation. I have a doubt here. Can I knead and also stretch and fold ? Will this make the dough too stiff ?
Thanks for the help!
My oven goes up to 480F. Should I leave it at max for the first 10 min of baking ?
From the information below, I would preheat as you do, then when putting in the loaf turn up the heat 20° for 10 min, then turn it back down and watch the crust.
With the above loaf, in particular, the oven was preheated for an hour. That was because the proofing took a longer time than expected (using the finger poke test). Maybe the stone got too hot and thus the bottom baked faster than the top. Could this be the reason ?
It is very possible.
I didn't use the stretch and fold method but French fold and then left it untouched for the bulk fermentation. I have a doubt here. Can I knead and also stretch and fold ? Yes
Will this make the dough too stiff? Normally not. Don't use any flour. How stiff is the dough? If you let kneaded dough rest, like during bulk fermentation, the dough relaxes and folds are easy. However, if too much flour is in the dough or the hydration too low (same thing) the dough has a tendency to tear with folding. Anytime the dough tears, stop the stretching immediately and let the dough rest before continuing. Try using water instead of flour to handle the dough and keep the dough covered to prevent moisture loss.
When you say low hydration, what percentage is it ?
Thanks for your input.
low hydration is a range of hydrations around 50% for AP.
water in grams divided by flour in grams x 100
This gives a rough estimate but is also influenced by the hydration of the flour itself and the ambient humidity in the room when the flour is exposed to air for some period of time. The longer flour stands open in a room, the more it changes.
My AP is bagged in plastic and is extremely dry and absorbent. I need at least 65% hydration in my dough recipe if used fresh from the bag. That would be low hydration for my circumstances as 65% just wets the flour enough to turn into dough. Paper bagged flours will have around 15% moisture in the flour and that can vary with how it is stored on the shelf and the season. I'm sure my AP is much lower or it would mould in the bag. My guess would be it is dried to prevent condense water forming in the bag.
Hi Mini Oven!
Another question: I read in a few posts on this forum that bulk fermentation is mostly for flavor and not gluten development. Is this true ?
you ask and how much gluten is in the dough. :)