As I posted here, I'm a very early-stage convert to sourdough, just practicing with a very simple recipe to get a feel for the dough. Here's my recipe, adapted from James Morton
400g strong white flour
200g starter (100% hydration)
275g water
5g salt
Combine, wait 30min, knead 10min.
I'm finding this dough loses cohesion and turns into a bit of a puddle after this knead, which doesn't seem extremely long to me. It can be shaped after a fashion, but puddles out again; it will survive a 3-4 hour rise (confined to a loaf pan) and bake OK. I'm doing a single rise just now as I have no faith in it, though I did bulk ferment one batch for a modest 4-ish hours before shaping, and it survived and baked pretty well.
The bread varies in texture between fluffy and crumpety, all edible and tasty, but I'm just not happy with this dough. I wouldn't want to try anything adventurous with a dough like this, it feels precarious, if you know what I mean. Like if I made a wrong move I'd end up with soup.
Is sloppiness just a feature of sourdough? If my maths is right, the hydration is 75%, which is high but should be manageable. What's niggling me is that it seems to lose strength in kneading, not gain it.
The starter is kept at cool room temperature (between 12C and 18C), fed twice a day and is active, bubbly and pleasant-smelling, mostly somewhere between yeast and yoghurt. I'm happy with its leavening, it doubles this dough easily in 3-4 hours. But does it have a secret agenda? Is it sabotaging the gluten in some way? Or am I making some basic mistake like under-kneading?
All thoughts welcome.
Welcome to the world of high-hydration dough. Your recipe appears to be about 75% hydration and I can tell you that it takes some getting used to. My "go to" bread recipe is over 70% and my last loaf was 77% (my next loaf will be 80%).
Here are some things I've learned:
1. Use quality flour. I started with store brand AP flour and got crappy results. I now use King Arthur Flour for the majority of my flour and use small amounts of other brands (usually rye flour and lately sprouted wheat flour).
2. Gluten development is very very important. There are 2 ways to get good gluten development:
a) Autolyse. I've read in a couple of places that "the best way to autolyse" is to only mix the flour and water components (exclude the preferment and salt) of the main dough and let sit. Lately I let the mass sit for 24 hours. I definitely notice a difference.
b) Kneading. Many use stretch-and-fold, but evidently I'm doing it wrong because I simply cannot get good gluten development using S&F. I use my Kitchen Aid and knead for a total of 15 minutes for white bread, and 20 minutes if I add whole flour. I knead for 5 minutes, then let the dough rest for 5-10 mins, and then repeat.
3. Refrigerate. I left my dough rise at room temp for 1-2 hours and then it goes into the refrigerator. I shape the dough, then it goes into the fridge. It only sits out for the end of the 1st proof as well as the final shaping and proofing. If left out in a warm place for too long, the sourdough culture will digest the gluten.
4. Make sure you have a way to hold the dough after the preshaping and final shaping. I initially used rolled-up kitchen towels dusted with white rice flour. I now use brotforms.
5. Rice flour. Wet dough is sticky, IME rice flour works very well to keep the dough from sticking to everything.
6. Practice practice practice. As you get more practice you'll start to see how everything comes together at the end.
Cheers-
Dave
I concur with dosco... this is a 75% hydration which will take some time to get used to. Why not start with 65% hydration and slowly work up.
You also use a very high percentage of Starter. Why not bring your starter/flour ratio down to 10-30%
I too have trouble developing the gluten with the asked for 3-4 stretch and folds. What I have taken to doing is when combining all the ingredients is to give the dough a good kneading by hand (easier with lower hydration) till dough comes together then proceed as normal incorporating some stretch and folds through the bulk fermentation. This way I've given it a good start.
For Salt i'd use 1.5 - 2% of the flour. So for your recipe i'd use 6g - 8g
Make sure the loaf tin you are using is the right size for the dough you're making. Assuming this is correct i'd adjust the recipe to this:
480g strong white flour
96g starter (100% hydration)
275g + 20g water
9g salt
1. Stir 96g active starter into 275g water till evenly distributed
2. Add flour and form dough. Cover and rest for 20 - 30min
3. Add 9g salt and wet with 20g water
4. Squeeze dough till all fully incorporated
5. Rest for 20min.
6. Tip dough out onto worktop and knead till gluten is fully formed. The dough should stop sticking to the table and your hands and become manageable. There will be veins in the skin of the dough. Will take a good 10 - 20 min. Do not add any more flour. Just work at it till it comes together. If bits of dough stick to the table then scrape up add them back to the dough and carry on.
7. Return to the bowl, cover with plastic wrap and leave to bulk ferment for 4 hours.
8. Gently de-gas the dough (not too much mind you just enough to work it into a shape) tip it out onto the table and shape into your loaf tin, placing it seam side down.
9. Final proof till ready.
10. Bake.
Thanks, ill try that formula and report back.
I realise the hydration is high, but this dough feels weaker than other 75% doughs I've worked with. Is there something about sourdough that produces weaker dough than when working with baker's yeast?
I think, or I find, that the nature of sourdough is that the time it takes and the fermentation process changes the structure. Really develop that gluten and you should be ok.
I also notice you go straight into final proofing.
The way I've given recommended is first a bulk proof - the 4 hours rest after kneading...
and then a final proof (a second rise).
This will develop flavour and give the yeasts time to multiply.
The final proof will be quicker (1.5hrs - 3hrs give or take) but you've gotta keep an eye on it. Can't be exact as there are many variables. But you know how it looks when ready.
Best of Luck.
My SD dough is not weak, although I thought so when I first started. I suspect my problems at the beginning had to do with low-quality ingredients and an inability to get good gluten development.
I suppose one issue you might have is that your preferment is very acidic, which could possibly damage the gluten.
Without knowing what you previously did and how that compares to what you're doing now, it's hard to diagnose any potential problem.
Was your previous recipe exactly the same as the SD recipe, with the difference being the leavening agent?
-Dave
Hi Dave,
No, when baking with bakers' yeast I use all sorts of recipes and mixes of flours. When I started experimenting with sourdough, I sought out a sourdough-specific recipe, as my understanding was that there is a lot of difference between the two processes and that converting a baker's yeast recipe to sourdough is not straightforward. So I didn't try.
I started with James Morton's basic sourdough recipe intending to reproduce it exactly (though with a reduction in salt just for personal taste). However, my dough started to feel like it was breaking down during the first knead.
I remember I was kneading idly away when it just turned wet and started slipping through my fingers.
The only time I've seen anything like it is when I was making a Hokkaido Milk Bread and let the mixer go for a bit too long - the dough which had been developing well just started 'letting go' and turning into soup. That's what this felt like. But I hadn't been kneading long on this occasion, maybe 6 or 7 minutes by hand.
I can give you more details on the baker's yeast recipes I've been using if you think it is relevant, although really, I've tried all sorts of things. I'm confident handling dough when using baker's yeast, at all sorts of hydrations. This just feels different.
But it's always possible I'm overthinking it.
What is your starter like? How does it smell?
I think I've read here that there are some bacteria that can grow in starter that will nuke your dough. Hopefully Minioven will chime in ...
Although I've had a bit of a learning curve getting used to the higher hydration doughs, I've never had my dough start normally and then disintegrate.
-Dave
SD recipe is the 1:2:3 recipe, 1 part 100% hydration starter, 2 parts water and 3 parts flour - all by weight. This gives you a 71% hydration dough and one with a good proportion of levain in the mix. You can hold back 20 g of water from the mix and see how it feels. If you think you can handle more water but the 20 g into the mix. Before long you will be able to handle 75% hydration white dough like it was nothing. Just takes a little practice,
Happy SD baking
The high percentage of starter you use could also lead to over-fermentation, which could then be a contributing factor to the spread effect you describe. While certain, modest quantities of acid will provide a dough with more strength, an overabundance will dissolve some of that strength, resulting in flaccid, lifeless dough. The more you practice, the better you will be able to recognize a proper bulk fermentation, and when things have gone too far. At the end of your bulk ferment, do you notice that your dough is nicely rounded and domed at the top? Or is it flattish and batter-like? If the former is the case, you are doing alright through the bulk, and the problem is happening during your proofing, during which you are liable to let the dough overferment, as well. This latter fermentation--the 'proofing'--is a notoriously difficult one to gauge, and you will find on these forums more than a few laments about under- and over-proofing. Regrettably, there has yet to be a definitive science established to the whole thing, as so much depends on environment, recipes, variations from harvest to harvest, etc.
As you bake more and more with your starter, you will get a better feel for how it behaves and be able to make more precise determinations about flour types, hydration, fermentation times, etc. You will doubtless encounter some stinkers along the way--even after two and a half years of working exclusively with SD, including a month's apprenticeship in France--I still often come away from bakes with grimaces of confusion. There's a lot to account for, and every tweak can disrupt the whole system. But stick with it, and you (and your friends and family) will be reaping the benefits for years to come.
We'll see you at the bottom of this rabbit hole; don't worry, you won't need directions.
Hi Sam! I've been lurking around this site & trying my hand at SD bread for a few months. Sourdough is my ultimate and only goal. So far it mostly tastes good but never resembles the pictures posted. I'm a great cook but can't follow a bread recipe to the letter to save my life. Started last year making starters and that went well but bread was always just ok so I quit. Now I'm back again & about to officially enter the rabbit hole ( I love you for calling it such). Should I dive into the hole or run away? Will I go broke buying flour?