DENSE CRUMB | The Fresh Loaf

Looking for advise regarding my CRUMB. My crumb is dense, kinda heavy. What could be causing that please? My formula process includes the mixing, autolyse, mixing, fermentation (5 hrs.) with stretch and fold each hour, dividing and panning, proofing till 1 1/2 X increase (usually about 90 minutes). This formula is from NW Sourdough, it's the FIRST LOAF, I've doubled it to make 2 loaves at a time. Any suggestions please?

I just bought a loaf of sourdough, first in years, and that loaf had a much lighter crumb, airy also. Mine is not as airy, and much more dense (heavy) it seems.

Thx,

Bruce

Brookings, OR

Crumb density can vary depending on a few things:

Fats: Does your formula include any fats/oil? Depending on how much, fats/oil will make the crumb tighter
Hydration: Generally, the wetter the dough, the more airy/open the crumb. What's the hydration % you're using?
Bulk rise: How much does your dough rise during the 5 hours? I know on hot days, my sourdough rises a lot in that time, but when it's cold, 5 hours barely makes a dent.
Proofing: Depending on how active your sourdough starter is, it may be overproofing if you leave it for 90 minutes. What kind of oven spring are you getting?

Also, depending on where you bought your sourdough, they may be "cheating" -- a lot of commercial sourdoughs use dough conditioners or even add commercial yeast to get it more airy.

Had a quick look at the recipe. It requires a starter at 166% hydration. Are you confident yours is at that hydration? The water content without the starter is low at about 43% so the starter hydration is important here. Also, imo, there is no need for any oil to be added to a simple white sourdough loaf. Equally with 100% white flour, imo, no need for an autolyse either as there will be plenty of gluten structure. Really things ought to be very simple. My first piece of advice to you would be to forget measurements in cups and weight everything in grams, inc water. This way your ingredients will be accurate. Cups are not consistent because ingredient volumes are not consistent. Sorry but that's just how it is. Here's a very simple and (should be) foolproof white sourdough recipe. White flour - 500g Starter - 150g (@ 100%) Salt 8g Water - 300g Mix, knead using your preferred method then rest for 1-2 hours in a warm place. Knock back, shape into a boule and put into a banneton or other container (bowl with teatowel etc) and allow to proof for 3-5 hours depending on room temp. Use the finger poke test to determine if the dough is ready. Bake for 30-40mins depending on your oven.

Thank you ElPanadero & BigelowBaker for your thoughts. When looking back at my original question, I guess it was very brief as to the formula and process, to that end, I am including this;

FORMULA & PROCESS

Flour 1021g (Bob's Red Mill Bread Flour)

Starter 384g @ 100% (this starter is refreshed for 3 feedings prior to going into the dough)

Salt 23g (Sea Salt)

Water 630g (warmed 40 sec.)

(this formula evolved out of Discovering Sourdough, FIRST LOAF. Dropped the oil and adjusted the water to 100% hydration. Her's (Teresa) was originally 166% but for the book she gave 100% directions also.)

All ingredients, except salt, are combined in mixer for 3 minutes. Rest for 30 minutes, salt sprinkled, mixed again for 2 minutes. Dough is then transferred to a proof tray with cover, placed in a Brod & Taylor Proof Box set at 80 degrees F. Each hour the dough is stretched and pulled (4 directions - each side) for 5 hours. Dough usually doubles during this time. After fermentation, this proofing time, it is divided, placed into pans. These pans are then placed into the Brod & Taylor Proof Box, again at 80 degrees F, until it increases 1 1/2 times. This usually takes anywhere from 1 hour to 1 1 /2 hour.

(this process is from midnight to early am, then usually baking by 8am)

The dough is then slashed and spritzed, into a preheated oven at 500 degrees F. The oven is also spritzed, closed up and spritzed 3 to 4 more times during the first 10 minutes. Oven temp is then reduced to 425 degrees F and baking completed. Bake time is usually 40 to 45 minutes, till internal temp is 200 degrees F. Oven spring is, what I consider GOOD, usually has the dough/bread come up well above the pan edges. Also, these pans are placed on a baking stone that is preheated with the oven. Pans are turned end for end when the oven temp is lowered from 500 degrees F to 425 degrees F.

I use pans because my free standing loaves flatten out too much. We do not like our bread that way. So, pans, I use. Also in my dough prep process I use Pam, a cooking spray, rather than flour. This procedure I picked up from Peter Reinhart and a San Francisco Baking Institute class. It's good enough for the PROs, got to be good enough for me, eh?

A) my baking process has long ago done away with volume measurements. Like you suggest, ElPan, I do everything with a scale.

B) BB, I didn't consider the additives that you mentioned. Good thinking. After all it is a commercial bakery.

C) a local baker, who I am on fairly good terms suggested I change flours. He mentioned, "a flour with higher gluten level." Any thoughts on that?

Thank you for sharing your suggestions and experience.

Bruce

If your loaves are often flattening on you, my first thoughts are gluten development, and possibly over-acidification of the dough, though I suspect the former may be more of an issue than the latter. Given that your formula uses all bread flour and is 67.7% hydration, you should have a somewhat stiff dough.

You say you put the dough in the mixer for three minutes. What kind of mixer do you use, and what speed are you mixing at?

I have a 5qt. Kitchen Aid, and I usually do this procedure:

- about a minute on low speed to incorporate the flour and water (no starter, no salt),

-let it autolyse (anywhere from 20 to 60 minutes, depending on the dough)

-add the starter

-mix for 3 minutes on first speed, adding salt about halfway through

-mix for 1 - 2 minutes on the highest speed, stopping to check gluten development a couple of times

-bulk ferment for anywhere from 4 - 8 hours, depending on temperature, doing 1 or 2 folds along the way.

I've also been recently doing longer (and slightly cooler) bulk ferments, and have found great improvements in my oven spring as a result. I used to have a lot of dense crumbs as well, but with more attention to gluten and primary fermentation, I've got much more open crumbs, even with high hydration doughs that used to so often just spread out on me.

Hey, I like your USER NAME... made me think for a minute. Good on ya!

My mixer is a Cuisinart 5.5 Quart. My mix speed is slow and speed 3 (on a machine with speed setting up to 12). As I related earlier, I add everything initially, except the salt, and incorporate/combine for 3 minutes. Auto for 30 minutes then sprinkle the salt and mix again.

This issue is really perplexing. Why do we sourdough baker do this to ourselves. For ages, I have been content with my sourdough product. Then I bought a loaf and am putting myself through all of this. WHY, WHY, WHY? Like they say in Zen, "suffering and worry is optional." Maybe I shouldn't buy sourdough bread, eh? Shame on me!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience.

Bruce

Brookings, OR

I have been getting wonderful oven springs ever since I began refrigerating my pre-soak overnight instead of leaving it on the counter. I was happy with my bread before that. I am delighted now. I make 100% whole wheat sourdough sandwich bread.

What's in your "pre-soak?" Your bread looks great but the crumb looks dense/tight/heavy, am I correct? Thank you for sharing. This THREAD has opened up my thinking to refrigerating during some period of the fermentation or proofing, have to do some figuring yet.

Bruce

I wouldn't call the loaf "heavy". The crumb is dense, but the bread is soft and not heavy. At half the height, it would be heavy.

My pre-soak contains:

1.4 oz pea/lentil flour cooked to porridge with 7 oz of water, made back up to 8.4 oz once the porridge has thickened
6 oz water
about 5 oz Greek yogurt (Fage)
19.2 oz freshly milled whole wheat flouroptionally 1 tablespoon of spices

These things are mixed until all the dry flour is taken up, and then the dough is covered and put into the refrigerator for overnight.

My pre-ferment contains:

8 oz sourdough culture
7 oz water
about 1/4 cup whole wheat milled to flour and added to the above before being left to sit until evening

9.6 oz freshly milled whole wheat flour added in the evening, before being left to sit until morning.

In the morning, 8 oz of the pre-ferment is taken out and stored in the refrigerator as my culture. The remainder is added to the cold pre-soak, along with 1.5 teaspoons salt and 2 tablespoons olive oil. The dough is kneaded on the lowest speed of my Ankursrum mixer for 12 minutes, after which it is covered and left for four hours. After the four hours is up, the dough is placed on some freshly rolled oats (about 1/8 cup as whole grains) and molded into a loaf shape. This is placed in a loaf pan which was greased with coconut oil. After rising for between 1/2 hour to one hour, it is baked covered for 20 minutes at 400 F followed by 40 minutes at 350 F. The oven is preheated to 450F before the baking begins. The cover is another loaf pan, inverted over the filled loaf pan.

Edit:

The main changes to my procedure that chilling the pre-soak has required is a longer kneading time and a longer first rising (proofing). I believe that the benefit to chilling overnight comes from protein not being broken down overnight by enzymes that work faster at room temperature.