If, for example, I'm going to be retarding the shaped loaves in the fridge overnight in a banneton. The entire process would be:
Measure out and feed starter to desired amount for use in recipe, let it do its thing for ~8h, then mix the rest of the ingredients. Do a few S&F's to develop gluten, probably a total of 1h for 3 sets, final shaping, into banneton, refrigerate for ~9h, next morning straight into oven.
What do you think that 1 hour of s&f would be? Bulk fermentation. You would have to have quite a high percentage of prefermented flour to make it work though.
I omit the bulk ferment on the counter (after gluten development and the S& F's) all the time. I just shape it, put it in a basket and put it in the fridge for 8-24 hours worth of proof - depending on how much SD levain was used in the mix. If it fully proofs in the fridge, I bake it straight out of the fridge. If it doesn't, I let it warm up on the counter and finish proofing before baking - no worries and the bread is great and wonderfully sour.
Happy Baking
Yes, you can do it, but you will have a loaf poor in terms of flavours and aromas. Final proof is only important in terms of volume.
What is better for flavor? 2 hours of bulk ferment on the counter after the S&F's followed by 4 hours of proof or no bulk ferment on the counter and a shaped 24 hour retard? How about no bulk ferment on the counter after S&F's and 18 bulk ferment in the fridge followed by a 2 hour warm up, shape and proof for 2 hours?
I have little use, except when speed is required and I'm short of time. for a bulk ferment on the counter since the flavor is much richer, deeper and complex by retarding the dough longer instead. But that method is based on my kitchen temperature in AZ which is much higher than most around the world for at least half the year.
But others may disagree. I favor a small levainand go for long, slow, cold retards to develop the best flavors and sour in the bread. Longer is always better if the levain is properly sized so the dough doesn't turn to goo. If I am in a hurry then i let it bulk ferment on the counter for a couple of hours and have to cut back the time in the fridge so it doesm't over proof instead - but the flavor of the bread isn't as good.
Both work fine and to each their own. Better to be a libertarian when it comes to bread methods:-)
Happy baking
A general rule of thumb is that longer fermentation brings out more flavor. This is particularly important for lean doughs. If you have an enriched dough, where the flavor of the bread comes from the other ingredients, perhaps it won't matter much.
In any case, you could just try it and see how the bread turns out. Maybe mix dough for two loaves and then split it. Shape one half and put it directly into the banneton, and treat the other half the usual way with a bulk fermentation.
You have to see fermentation in bread like the fermentation in distilleries or breweries of wine, whisky or beer. The important part of the fermentation happens in the barrel, or in the tank. In the barrel spirits develope aromas and flavors, and then they bottle in cans, bottles or any pack or container. With bread it's the same. For me, 3 hours of bulk fermentation is essential to develope not only the aromas and flavours, but also to get a good bread in terms of nutrition and digestion.
Do you think that dough stops fermenting while it's proving? Technically speaking, the compounds that develop through fermentation are just the pre-cursors to flavour. The actual flavours develop in the oven, when enzymes go crazy.
To clarify: instead of the 1h of s&f at intervals, what if I just did slap & folds for 10 minutes after mixing with the machine, then did the final shaping and refrigerated?
I don't understand why this would cause flavour to suffer, if for example I did a 3h bulk ferment followed by degas and pre-shaping, rising a further 1h, then final shaping and into the oven another 30 mins-1h after that for a total of 4h30-5h between mixing and baking, compared to no bulk ferment and retarding the loaf for 8h or more?
It seems there's no real consensus on this, but I'm learning new things reading the comments :)
sirrith, by slap and folds, do you mean Bertinet-style slap and fold kneading?
My guess is you're going to get totally different gluten development if you do 10 minutes of active slap-and-fold vs. 3 stretch and folds every 20 minutes for 1 hour. I'd say the latter will yield a much more gentle development of tender, extensible gluten as the flour continues to hydrate. The former (slap-and-fold) is somewhat more harsh compared to stretch-and-fold, and may not yield as supple or extensible dough, mostly because of a shorter rehydration period for the flour.
But this would be pretty easy to compare side-by-side. Make a double batch, do some one way, do some the other, and compare the results.
2 hours and white flour for 40 minutes then there is no worry about hydrating the flour. Since my recipes are very wet ones, I like to do a set of slap and folds to mix everything together and get the gluten in shape from the very beginning but this only lasts as long as it takes to get the dough to stop sticking to the counter 6-8 minutes. Then i like to do 2 more sets of slap and folds on 20 minute intervals that are just 4 gentle slap and folds each. which gets me to the 50 minute mark. Then I do 3 sets of stretch and folds on 20 minute intervals.
Because of the heat in Phoenix, I usually use 8-12% levain. This low amount of lervain doesn't make the dough rise much at all in the first 2 hours since the slap and folds and stretch and folds are degassing it every 20 minutes and it hasn't had enough time to do much of anything anyway. Then it is shaped and put in the fridge for 12 - 24 hours to proof depending on how much levain was used. When it is 85% proofed it comes out to warm up for baking or if it proofs toomuch i bake it right out of the fridge.
No flat loaves here. But if it let the dough bulk ferment on the counter for even an hour after the stretch and folds before shaping, It would over proof in the fridge in 8 hours or less and before I wake up the next morning to bake it, The more whole grains and or sprouted grains or both in the mix, the faster the proof in the fridge too.
Now that it is heading toward winter, this method will have to change quite a bit to accommodate kitchen temperatures in the 60's instead of the 80's and the heating pad will soon have to come out of the drawer and come January i might be able to let the dough ferment on the counter for a couple of hours before shaping and proof out on the counter or outside on the patio overnight.
I think if you are only going to do 10 minutes of slap and folds then you want to let it bulk ferment on the counter for a couple of hours before shaping and retarding,
Happy SD Baking
You can skip bulk fermentation, or make it very short, if you use great quantity of sourdough or preferment.
Bulk fermentation is for more than just flavor. If you just mix, slap and fold for 10 minutes, shape, and then retard, you will end up with a flattish limp loaf -- unless you're putting it in a pan. Without the structure of the gas bubbles to hold it up, the shaped loaf will first sag and then proof "out" instead of "up." You need light and airy dough to make a loaf that holds its shape well -- and that comes during the bulk fermentation.
Now if you're doing stretch and folds for a length of time, then the dough is bulk fermenting and getting lighter as you go. Problem averted . . . so long as your dough rises enough.
Cheers!
Trevor
There are people that do not bulk ferment, they mix and knead and shape the loaf to either put them in a banneton to final proof or in a loaf pan.
I like to bulk ferment my dough though , one could call it first rise really, then gently deflate, shape, proof and bake.
I mix and knead my bread at about 9pm in the Night and then let it bulk ferment for 12 hours on the counter OR in the Summer I put the dough to bulk ferment in the fridge.
I than shape the loaf, put it in my banneton, proof for 2 ½ hours and bake. YUMMY bread