Rewording a question - sourdough levain

On page 152 of Bread J. Hamelman uses 4.8 ounces of bread flour with 1 oz of mature starter and 6 oz of water to build the levain. The rye flour for the recipe is mixed in after the levain has developed.

What if instead of using the bread flour for the whole 4.8 ounces, I used the 3.2 ounces of rye flour in the recipe for the levain along with 1.6 ounces of bread flour so that I still get the required 4.8 ounces of flour for the levain but now with a flour mix? The recipe would have exactly the same ingredients in the same amounts but the rye would be included in the levain instead of the later mixing. Would this development of the rye in the levain produce a stronger rye flavor than using it later? Would the rye work in the levain?

All I'm doing is switching which flours are used in the levain. All ingredients, amounts and percentages stay the same, I'd just be exposing the rye to possibly more development.

Mike

The question makes perfect sense this time :-) There is some good info about preferments here: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/preferments.html Reading through that, it is clear that if you specifically use rye flour for the preferment, it can affect the end result. If there is a high content of rye in the main dough that can lead to gumminess unless some of it is acidified by using it in the preferment. All that said, Hammelman is obviously an expert so his recipe has been carefully worked out to balance all the various factors involved end-to-end. Changing the recipe or processes will change the end result. If his recipe calls for a white levain and rye flour in the main dough rather than the other way round, then there will be a reason for it imo. But feel free to experiment and see what changes arise out of the flour swap. That's how we learn :)

I am not one to second guess Hamelman but I do like to tweak things. If the tweak does not work, then I broke it, my fault. The last time I made the recipe I altered the baking instructions. Instead of artisan bread, I made sandwich loaves in pans by baking at a lower temp. My baking stone just won't accommodate many loaves. The recipe as it is in the books makes two boules that I cannot fit on my stone without them touching. I'm probably non-conventional in my sourdough.

So this time the recipe is altered to increase the amount of dough. In addition, I may make two rye batches. One with some rye in the levain and one with just white flour. Then I can see if there is a difference.

like a plan. The loaves won't "fail" imo, they will just be different to that in the recipe. The whole point of a recipe is to produce a specific product. Nothing wrong with tweaking if you want a slightly different product. GL

Yes, rye will work in the levain. As for the favor, try and tell us.

Ford

Sounds like you'll end up with some tasty bread and new information. Hope you report back on the experiment!

The levains look good. There's one with a whole wheat culture and bread flour, one with a rye culture and bread flour and the last is a rye culture with primarily rye flour for the other flour in the levain. I have milled the rye for the batch that will be using the rye culture/bread flour levain. I'll mill the whole wheat for the whole wheat levain in the morning. I just got back from fetching two more bags of bread flour for the store. I've got the salt and water ready to measure. I'll get up early just in case the levains try to rush things.

The Vermont sourdough recipe uses mostly bread flour. My next challenge will be using more whole grain. I mill my own and prefer it every chance I get.

and the white flour. if any, in the dough flour. If you have more than 20% whole grains total in the mix you will likely still have some of them in the dough to autolyse if the levain is only 10-15% - a more reasonable amount for whole grain levains . If the dough is fermented, proofed and baked properly, gumminess shouldn't be an issue, Things move a little faster with a whole grain levain and I think the bread ends up with a deeper and more complex flavor too. I like getting the whole grains wet for as long as possible in the levain or in an autolyse (for 2nd best choice.) Supposedly there will be less gluten strand cutting that way and a more open crumb should be possible. I think the bread is a little more sour this way too. For small levains Ilike to sift out the hard bits of whole grain flour and use that to feed the levain so the hardest past of the whole grain is wet the longest - and I like to retard these levains too keeping them wetter even longer.

Happy Baking

Sourdough rye One of the first out of the oven. This is pretty much right from the book for Vermont Sourdough/rye except I resized the formula. Four more are in pans waiting and another four will shortly go in pans. Not as pretty as artisan loaves but it works for us.