What is the difference?
My fav. Recipe asks for 500g Bread Flour, 300g warm water 8.5g Salt...
The way I do my Levain is first a bit Math.
20% of the Amount of Flour that the recipe calls for.
This is 100g
I dived that by 2 and have 50/50
So my Levain is made with 1 Tbsp of Rye Starter * I use Rye Starter * plus 50g of Flour and 50g of Warm water.
I leave it over Night and the next day I add my 500g Flour, 300g warm water and Salt.
Now I often read about Biga and Poolish.
What is it, what is the difference between all those?
Briefly:
Biga - A very dry Italian preferment, often, but not always, made with commercial yeast. Drier than most doughs, generally fermented for 12 - 16 hours.
Poolish - A very wet French preferment (attributed to Polish bakers, hence the name) consisting of equal or almost equal parts of flour and water by weight, also usually fed with a small amount of commercial yeast, but can be done with sourdough. Often fermented for 8 - 12 hours, but I've seen shorter and longer.
Levain - Way more vague than the others. Can be wetter than a poolish, but not usually as dry as a biga, and usually destined to go into a dough, rather than just being a starter. Although I have a starter labeled Liquid Levain in my fridge, so...yes. This is one of those "ask ten people and get eleven different answers" situations.
Thank you so much cerevisiae, it does help a lot.
I think I stick to calling what I do Levain , makes life easier. lol
"ask ten people and get eleven different answers"
Definitely. In British: old dough, in Mandarin: tangzhong, dare I say in American: young sourdough? The common thread is bread dough that has been allowed to autolyse and ferment for at least overnight, yesterday's leftovers if you like.
Thank you so much for the quick reply johnsankey, it does help me a lot.
I think I make a Levain after all.
I get the impression on TFL at least that the term 'levain' is used when it forms part of a dough, whereas other terms refer to the thing whether it is part of the dough or not. So a jar of 'sourdough starter' magically becomes 'levain' when you start thinking of it in terms of raising a particular bread recipe rather than just sitting on your countertop doing its thing.
Thank you for your reply ccsdg, it does make sense.
Tnagzhong is the process of making a starchy paste from flour and water (looks like a custard) and adding it to the dough to make a very soft bread. It provides a starch matrix. It is not a form of yeast.
Every few years this discussion takes place as new members arrive.The people that have been on this board for a while have already had the discussions and established the meanings. It is a world-wide forum and there are a LOT of variations. Always good to establish common meanings.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/appendix-glossary
That is the link for the glossary established on this forum. There is a HANDBOOK link at the top of the page and the Appendix A-Glossary is part of it.
Essentially, " biga, poolish, mother, sponge, sourdough and starter" are all forms of a pre-ferment. They have different names because they are attributed to different parts of the world and different cultures and different preferences. Usually some flour (any kind) and water are stirred together and fermented so the natural yeasts grow. The natural lactobacillus will grow first and acidify the flour/water mix (hence the name sourdough). Some are kept thin and some are kept thick-again depending on local habit. Some are even made with fruit or vegetables and not flour. The natural levain can be made with non-wheat flours, also.
Levain is commonly used to refer to any form of naturally grown yeast and is frequently referred to as sourdough. To make matters confusing-any yeast is a levain (commercial,dried,instant,etc) and baking powder and baking soda are "leveners". Levain is the same word derivation as "lever" or "levitate" and essentially means "to raise or lift"
leaven (n.)
mid-14c., from Old French levain "leaven, sourdough" (12c.), from Latin levamen "alleviation, mitigation," but used in Vulgar Latin in its literal sense of "a means of lifting, something that raises," from levare "to raise" (see lever). Figurative use from late 14c.
So keep asking questions,take a look at the handbook and use the wonderful "search" box because there is SO much information on this forum. Remember....
Bake delicious fun!
Thank you so very much for your fantastic help clazar123.
Now I go and read the appendis-glossary.
I wish it was not so confusing to name what I am doing in the right way lol.
But it works and that is all that matters.
Sometimes the meaning of a word isn't as precise as people try to imply. And sometimes, it just plain doesn't matter if you're using it precisely or not. For the purposes of discussion concerning bread, you can use the term levain for what you are doing. In fact, that is the most commonly used word (on this site at least) for exactly what you're doing. I don't think you will confuse or anger anyone by using the word levain in that way.
However, usually the amounts of flour and water in your levain would be then subtracted from the ingredients that are added to make the dough. So 500g flour and 300g water would become in your case 450g flour, 250g water, and 100g levain. Then, it all adds up the same and doesn't change the hydration of the recipe. Not saying you're wrong to do it without that subtraction. It's just commonly done that way so that the ingredient amounts stay the same and the recipe can still be scaled reliably.
David,
I agree with you. When one makes bread with one leaven, one preferment, the flour comes from the total in the recipe.
Just to add, that sometimes the flour for the leaven is calculated separately, because this amount is later subtracted from the following leaven, to keep it as a starter for the next batch. I.e. when one makes two or tree builds of leaven in a row.
I.e. if Petra makes her dough with 500g of flour, she could first create a wheat starter for it (the first leaven, the first build) and then inoculate a portion of flour from the recipe with it. Once it is ripe, she would substract 100g from it to keep it as a starter (chef) for the next batch. And use the remainder of leaven to mix a bread dough.
mariana
Oh I did not know that.
I think I shall carry on the way I am used to now, it produces beautiful bread, rises wonderful and tastes ... oh the taste.
There is no difference in meaning, Petra, these are words from different languages signifying the same thing - a portion of prefermented flour in final dough.
Levain - in French, usually sourdough, any consistency
Biga - in Italian, could be any consistency, yeasted or sourdough.
Poolish - in French, usually yeasted and flowing, like a thin pancake batter.
In English a synonym for all those would be either preferment, or leaven.
So you can call what you make with your rye starter, wheat flour and water using any of the three words from non-English languages.If levain sounds nice and shick to you, so be it : )
Although when speaking in English, you'd rather use either pre-ferment or leaven, unless you specifically make a preferment in French tradition for a French-style wheat bread. But then French bakers never make their levain with rye sourdough and with proportions as high as 1 tbsp of chef (starter) to 100g of fresh dough. This rather looks like what an American baker Chad Robertson does for his Tartine sourdough. A very mild leaven with tiny acid load.
mariana
HI Mariana,
I only wrote Levain cos I did not know how to spell it , so I went by sound * hangs head in shame *
Thank you so much for your reply.
I do not know who Chad Robertson is but I prefer a Rye Starter over a Wheat Starter simply because it is much easier to handle and does not get so gloopy * spelling *
I found this Method with the Leaven on youtube and it works wonderful for me, my breads come out much nicer as before where I used a large amount of my Wheat Starter.
Maybe the person on youtube got it from Chad Robertson.
I also like that I only need a small amount of Starter in my jar, it saves a lot of flour , before I was feeding a large amount of Wheat starter and OMG feeding it 2 times a day with 200g of flour....
Now I keep just a small amount of Rye starter and I am happy, alomst feel FREE.
You spelled "levain" perfectly; it's simply French for "leaven". The Italian is "levito" and Spanish is "levadura", as I recall.
Oh thank you cerevisae, English is not my first language so I do get things wrong, still, even after 17 years in the UK.
I do write a lot in German and that is worse now. * Hangs head in shame *
I think I stick to the word leaven, and call my starter Starter, that way I do not even get more confused. phewww lol.
My Wheat Starter lives now in my fridge, I do not really use him anymore but I LOVE him, he will be 1 year soon.
My Rye Starter I think is easier to work with , I do prefer the consistancy.
Well, I will stick to the word Leaven .
When everything is a preferment than the * Starter * itself should be called preferment as that is what it is before it is used to make Leavans, BiGA's Poolishs.....?
So my Starter stays my Starter and my Leaven stays my Leaven:)
Hi ElPanadero,
Isn`t a formula for a Biga or Poolish a definition of how much flour and water it would take to make it? At one point some of us venture out of our comfort zone and attempt to try a different bread, be it French, German, Italian or whatever. We are confronted with the terms used in that language and it is definitely meaningful to know the different between a batter-like levain and a ball of dough, IMHO.
I agree with you Laurentius.
For my Leaven I ust 1Tbsp of Starter and mix it with 20% of the Flour that the recipe calls for, in my case, my recipe wants 500g.
So I use 1Tbsp Starter, add 50g of Flour and 50g of Water.
I do that the Night before I want to bake my bread.
Basicly 1tbsp of Starter for every 100g of Flour.
A recipe that calls for 1000g of Flour , I would us 2tbsp of Starter and 100g Flour and 100g Water.
This is for me the best way to only have to take care of a very small amount of Starter.
Hi ElPanadero,
since I am only a home baker I was just simply interested reg. the difference between leaven, Biga, Poolish... because there must be some reason for them otherwise every country would call what they do * Preferment *
So we can not realy say they are * meaningless *
I heard that the method I am using is called Leaven and that is what i continue to call it.
Thank you so much for your input though:)
Words will never be numbers.
What do I mean by that? Ask yourself and you may find the answer..
everything is meaningful and nothing is meaningless
Hi El,
Isn`t thats the point, baking and cooking are not exact science, we have leeway in which nature is forgiving. To tell a culture that their chosen term is incorrect is quite arrogance and remindful of the deplorable "The Ugly American", of the 40s to the early 60s. If we can understand the "word" in relation to the process, isn`t thats more important in our sharing than everyone using the same(culturally discomforting)terminology?