ok,
so far i´ve had a couple of successes, especially the last couple of loaves (where i omitted the flex and sesame seeds which i thought complicated matters!)
now on the road to the stable recipe i´m making some changes, first off i will use less gluten rich flour and only whole wheat flour (spelt is too expensive and until i start using the rye starter i´m gonna stick with whole wheat)
i would like to add some olive oil to the recipe to help conserve the loaves and then also make bigger loaves (as i figure the pans i have are too big for what i´m putting inside and i want more bread anyway ;O)
so the revised recipe is:
- 300g white wheat gluten rich flour (30%)
- 700g whole wheat flour (70%)
- 700g water (70% hydration) / 68% (in case of adding olive oil)
- 20g olive oil (2%)
- 16g salt 1.6% / 20g 2% (depending weather or not i use the seeds)
- 2og instant dry yeast 2%
- 60g flax and sesame seeds 6% (after a night´s soak in 100 gram water)
- total flour 1kg (100%)
the poolish
- 200g whole wheat flour (20%)
- 200 g water
- 4 g yeast (20%)
- 60g soaked flax and sesame mix (possibly washed, possibly only in final mix and not in poolish)
so that leaves for the final dough
- 500g whole wheat flour
- 300g white gluten rich flour
- 500g water
- 16g salt
- 16g yeast
- 20g olive oil
now, i don´t know if it will make any difference but i would like to try to put the flax seeds in the poolish, thus making the whole thing a little less sticky (and/or to wash the flax seeds before incorporating them?)
i´ve opened a thread about the olive oil and flax seeds but for now i´m thinking 2% olive oil instead of 2% water (we´ll see what you guys say first...)
UPDATE:
OK, so while actually doing it i made small changes again but all for the best!
i flavord the water with onion and added less seeds in total (only 4% instead of 6) i put them in dry with the flour which made the whole thing drier (unless i miscalculated something on the way) so i added just a little bit more water.
i kneaded by hand about 18m and left it to rise, while it was rising i made 4 stretch and folds which felt strange because the dough was drier then until now and wasn´t sticking to it self (im making the S&F inside the bowl, gathering some from under and sticking it back on top)
i shaped them the best i could and left them to grow (i think i over did it... almost didn´t have any oven spring but they were already quite big so i was pleased anyway) when i first put the dough in the pens it was almost filing the pen. and after growing it went out of the pen... this amount is probably too much for these pens.
this time i put it 15m in the oven on max (gas level 6) and then took it down for another 30-35m at gas level 5 (that´s suposed to be 190C) and then took it out of the pen and another couple of minutes before opening the oven and leaving the loaves inside to cool.
i managed to burn the underside again, i don´t know why that happens but i´m trying to aliminate the problem by lowering the temps... we´ll see in the next bake.
they came out lovely though, apart of the burned bottom there was another problem with the crumb, its a little "loose" im not sure how to explain that but i think it has to do with my bad shaping technique...
the bread:
- Simisu's Blog
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I just saw this. These look great and you are really making a lot of progress. Love the sesame seeds on top. -Varda
it´s been an advanture indeed, i tried this recipe again (wanted to make some bread to share in some meeting...) one thing that happend and i think effected the bread a lot was that i let the poolish go too long, from my understanding it makes the bread "weak" and indeed it was braking down too easy, but on the other hand it was soft and yummy...
i´ll just try not to pass it with the poolish (now that the temps are higher...) one more thing i did the last time was give the dough an autolyse of about 15m (i was in a hurry), i think i´ll start doing that from now on!
thing was that i put too much water in the attempt to cover for the dry flax seeds, it was VERY hard for me to handle but all in all it came out ok too...
i´ll keep working though and we´ll see... for now i´ve been making my own bread for about three weeks and it´s a big change! (just have to keep from eating all of it at once though!)
thanks again,
Simisu
and final dough have 200 and 300 g of water for a total of 500 g but your overall shows it should be 700 g? it looks like 200 g were missing which may explain why your dough was a little dry? Also since oil contains no water, it usually is not considered poart of the hydration. It appears that you have a 50% hydrationnrather than a 70% as you wanted. With 70% of the flour WW you probably do want 70% hydration.
Hope this helps.
it is a typo, and i´m pretty sure i put in the correct amount but it might just be... i think it would be a drastic enough change for me to detect that something is wrong but on the other hand i never tried to do anything as dry as that...
thanks for the heads up though, i´ll correct the mistake.
i did end up simply adding the oil in, i´ll be playing with the percentage in the next few times to see what works better, i feel i´m coming closer and closer to what i´m looking for!
is the amount of IDY i should be putting in the poolish... somehow it seems to me to be a lot of yeast for such a long time (i´m leaving the poolish out of the fridge for around 16 hours - temps are between 13-16C at the moment - i figure it´s not too warm yet) with this kind of recipe am i doing ok just putting in the reletive amount or is that really too much?
also i´d appriciate any insight as to why its important not to let the poolish get too far.
thanks!
He uses volume measurements for the poolish yeast and weight for the flour, but as far as I can tell, he is using 2-3g of instant yeast (1/4 teaspoon) for around 500g of flour in his poolish. That is .5% of flour weight. You are doing a lot more than that, so you might want to cut back and see how it goes. -Varda
i will reduce the amount of yeast in the Poolish for next time and see how it goes... last bake with considerable less time for the poolish made my bread stronger to the point i can now cut it into thinner slices without risking a tear, it also holds up without crubling when toasted.
slowly, but i´m getting there ;O)
now i really do need to work on my shaping and deviding, with the amount of dough i´m making i should be making three loaves i think but i only have two pens so once they are done proofing in the pen they are already out of the pen which i´m sure is a mistake, this leads to the bottom sticking into the glass pen (the other is silicon so no problem) and with all the oven spring i´m getting the tops just rip all around the rim of the pen!
and well.. it´s a good bread but i was looking for something more solid rather then airy (i´m actually surprised with just how airy and soft i could make it) but maybe that´s because i´m thinking about breads with 20-40% of rye?
i need to start that rye starter and see which kind of bread i come up with...
i wish i could bake every day untill i get it right hehe...
i dare say i got the hang of this bread, even sold my first loaf!!!
been working on the shaping which has improved the final result, one reason was letting go of my zero flour against sticking policy which obviusly belongs to the pros and not to a novice like me (keeping in mind that i insisted to have 70% hydration, which i´m actually thinking to reduce because the bread comes out just a little too wet for me...) so then it sticks less making it possible to shape and also take out of the pan without breaking the whole thing. i didn´t notice any difference in taste (i wasn´t using that much flour) so i´m still ok i guess.
meanwhile i started the sourdough starter sent to me by MiniOven, which so far got made into pancakes (awesome!) and a loaf i intend to post about soon (it looks amazing but turned out just a tad too sour for my liking) it was intended to be pita bread but then turned out a loaf :O)
next on my to do list is figure out out to convert this recipe to create a sourdough bread with around 20% rye instead of the poolish, and playing around with that until i have something i like. and also one pack of german bread ready mix i got for a present (this maybe today...)
today is first day of spring, and indeed i feel great :O)