I’m finally getting around to posting Maggie Glezer’s firm sourdough starter recipe. For those of you having problems with your starters you might wish to give this a try. Most people here are using batter-style starters so it might be interesting to see if there is any discussion on firm starters. Plus I need help in learning to convert properly for use in recipes which don’t use a firm starter and there are always questions that come up. I have photographed my starter from mixing the dough ball and pressing it into the pint-sized jar through several hourly increments where you can see how grows and finally it quadruples in 8 hours, or in this case just short of 8 hours, which is the “gold standard” Maggie talks about for a firm starter to be ready to leaven bread.
I realize there are many opinions and methods on sourdough starters and this is only the one I’ve chosen and that works for me. But as many of you know, I’m a bread newbie and a sourdough newbie and I’m interested in all the information. Some of you were asking about a firm starter so thought this might help.
PHOTOS on firm starter:
http://zolablue.smugmug.com/gallery/2617049#138085923
(NOTE: Edited to correct recipe 9-25-07 so if you copied it prior to this date please recopy and accept my apologies!)
SOURDOUGH STARTER DIARY – © Copyright, Maggie Glezer, Blessing of Bread
(How to make sourdough bread in two weeks or less)
To begin a starter, you need only whole rye flour, which is rich in sourdough yeasts and bacteria, bread flour, water, time, and persistence (lots of the last two). Amounts are small because I like to use the minimum of flour practical for building the sourdough, as so much of it will be thrown away. If you are baking bread in the meantime, you can add any of these discards to a yeasted dough for extra flavor.
WEEK ONE:
SUNDAY EVENING: Mix 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) whole rye flour with 1/4 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) water to make a thick paste and scrape it into a clean sealed jar.
TUESDAY MORNING: The starter should have puffed a bit and smell sharp. Add 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour and 1/4 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) water to the jar, stir it well, and scrape the sides with a rubber spatula to clean them. Reseal the jar.
WEDNESDAY MORNING: The starter should have risen quickly. It is now time to convert it into a stiff starter. In a small bowl, dissolve a scant 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) starter (discard the rest) in 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) water, then add 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour and knead this soft dough. Place it in a clean jar or lidded container, seal it, and let it ferment.
THURSDAY EVENING: The starter will not have risen at all; it will have only become very gooey. Repeat the above refreshment, throwing away any extra starter.
WEEK TWO:
SATURDAY EVENING: The starter will not have risen at all; it will have only become very gooey. Repeat the same refreshment.
MONDAY MORNING: The starter will finally be showing signs of rising, if only slightly! Repeat the refreshment.TUESDAY MORNING: The starter should be clearly on its way and have tripled in twenty-four hours. Repeat the refreshment.
WEDNESDAY MORNING: The starter should be getting stronger and more fragrant and have tripled in twenty-four hours. Repeat the refreshment.WEDNESDAY EVENING: The starter should have tripled in eight hours. It will be just about ready to use. Reduce the starter in the refreshment to 1 tablespoon (15 grams/0.5 ounce) starter using the same amounts of water and bead flour as before.
THURSDAY MORNING: The starter is ready for its final refreshment. Use 1 1/2 teaspoons (10 grams/0.4 ounce) starter, 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) water, and 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour.THURSDAY EVENING: The starter is now ready to use in a recipe or to be refreshed once more and then immediately stored in the refrigerator.
Refreshment for a complete Sourdough Starter
MAKES: About a rounded 1/3 cup (90 grams/3.3 ounces) starter, enough to leaven about 3 1/3 cups (450 grams/16 ounces) flour in the final dough
This stiff starter needs to be refreshed only every twelve hours. Use this formula to refresh a refrigerated starter after if has fully fermented and started to deflate. If the following starter does not quadruple in volume in eight hours or less, refresh it again, with these proportions, until it does. If your kitchen is very cold, you will need to find a warmer area to ferment your starter.
1 1/2 teaspoons (10 grams/0.4 ounce) fully fermented sourdough starter
2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) water
1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour
MIXING THE STARTER: In a small bowl, dissolve the starter in the water, then stir in the flour. Knead this stiff dough until smooth. You may want to adjust the consistency of the starter: For a milder, faster-fermenting starter, make the starter softer with a little more water; for a sharper, slower-fermenting starter, make the starter extra stiff with a bit more flour. Place it in a sealed container to ferment for 8 to 12 hours, or until it has fully risen and deflates when touched.
Conversion of a Batter-Type Starter into a Stiff Starter
MAKES: About a rounded 1/3 cup (90 grams/3.2 ounces) starter, enough to leaven about 3 1/3 cups (450 gram/16 ounces) flour in the final dough
If you already have a batter-type starter – that is, a starter with a pancake-batter consistency – you will need to convert it into a stiff starter for the Glezer recipes, or to check its strength.
1 tablespoon (15 grams/0.5 ounce) very active, bubbly batter-type starter
1 tablespoon (15 grams/0.5 ounce) water
1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour
MIXING THE STARTER: In a small bowl, mix the starter with the water, then stir in the flour. Mix this little dough until smooth, adjusting its consistency as necessary with small amounts of flour or water to make a stiff but easily kneaded starter. Let it ferment in a sealed container for 8 to 12 hours, or until it is fully risen and starting to deflate. If the starter has not quadrupled in volume in 8 hours or less, continue to refresh it with the proportions in “Refreshment for a Completed Sourdough Starter” until it does.
Mmm, interesting.
I used firm starter before, but it's just a biga like the indirect method mentioned in The Artisan site. I did the long biga (12+ hours).
wildeny, if I read your link correctly they are describing a biga as a preferment along with a poolish, etc., and not a firm or stiff sourdough culture which the recipe I posted is for. Most of the recipes I see on the site are for batter type sourdough starters and a couple people were asking a few days ago about how to make a firm starter. So I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
Andrew
keep a firm starter. It uses way less flour and makes a very manageable amount. My starter makes about 90 grams total and I just started saving the discarded starter to flavor yeasted breads.
Now, from what you describe you are doing with yours it actually is not a firm starter once you get it ready to use in bread, correct? And I wonder why yours never did quadruple - but cool that it still works! I had mine in the fridge, unfed, for 3 weeks recently and once I removed it I only had to feed it twice at 20g starter, 30g water, and 50g flour and it came right back to quadruple. Since then, because temps here have really warmed I reduced it to 15g/30g/50g. Actually, just before I reduced it my starter was quintupling. I was worried about reducing it (with the cold temps outside) but I persevered and figured out I had been feeding it far more often than necessary and just not allowing it the time it needed to build up its strength to quadruple at 15g.
I was told Glezer has kept this starter in her fridge for 3 years and refreshed it 5 times and it was ready to bake. Can this be done with a liquid starter? I think it speaks well of the strength of the firm starter and it sure is easy to convert by adding water for a liquid starter recipe. Having said that I have had angst over that conversion.
Andrew, thanks for the compliments, but honestly half the time I'm holding my breath hoping things will work. When they do, I'm extremely grateful!
Hi Zolablue, Andrew,
I may be wrong, but it seems like a misconception that you have to use lots of flour or dump lots of flour to have a batter starter. I store only a small amount of starter, like 100g or so. I guess I could go much smaller if I wanted. There really is no reason you couldn't, except I don't see the point, as I can still build whatever size starter I want after that, leaving just the amount I want to store.
As a practical matter, I've not seen a huge issue with length of storage. I just revived my KA starter after 2 months with just a couple of feedings. Sure, if you want to keep it for years, then you could switch to a firm starter.
Bill
Zolablue,
Yes, I store about 100g of batter starter, which has 50g of flour in it. However, I hardly ever throw any flour out. I only feed it after I've used up all but 20g, at which point I feed it 40g of flour and 40g of water, or more usually, I build up, refreshing as I go, to the amount I need for a recipe with an extra 100g of starter I can toss back in the refrigerator at some point during the build cycle. There is no requirement to feed it once it is refrigerated. Yes, if I were to store it for months, it would keep better as a firm starter, but other than that, there is little practical difference I can think of.
I do admire Glezer for not compromising on things like "frugal culture management", dough handling, use of multiple preferments, and other more complex aspects. I am a fan of the wonderful breads you've made, and my hat's off to you. However, on this batter vs. firm starter thing..., I think most of the information about batter starters that involves throwing out lots of flour is due to authors trying to make a very simple approach for beginners to follow, e.g the BBA. If we asked Glezer, she could write us a version of her book that starts with a batter starter that uses more frugal methods, and very little would be different about the resulting breads. The recipes would build from a batter starter instead of from a firm starter is all. I will say, the waste and unnecessary mess in the Silverton recipe is hard to believe, although maybe she has some good reasons (from her point of view) for doing it that way, if we were to ask her. She is a legendary baker, after all, even if her starter doesn't make sense to us.
Summarizing, you can use a batter starter or firm starter in much the same way. All it really amounts to is a different amount of water is in the starter, which has to be made up for elsewhere. Other than that, I don't think there is much practical difference. If you ignored the water, the methods could be thought of as very similar. I don't even think the flavor differences would be that great, as long as you use similar rise times and temperatures, and keep the proportions of flour in the various preferments and dough the same.
Having said all that, now I'll probably get an earful about my mistaken views from some of the heavy duty bakers around here. I'd love to learn from that, and I'll hold on to my helmet.
Bill
...and I certainly hope you don't get an earful. :o) There are so many opinions and the same number of methods and they all seem to work and we all have our own reasons for choosing. I do think some of our personalities tend to be a bit anal and we should just try doing these things and not worry so much about them. I guess I should speak for myself and I am!
But there is so much info available that causes new bakers to overthink because well respected people can disagree. Still, I just want all the info I can get and then, like you and others, I'll decide what works best for me.
My biggest question is the flavor factor. I really have to be curious when someone says they can really taste a difference between the starters. I just didn't realize it could be so varied in the final outcome. Aren't we all cultivating the same organisms basically? No matter, it all makes good bread.
As for Silverton, please don't get me wrong. I have her book, I'm dying to make some of her recipes, and she is an outstanding baker. I just think the huge vats of starter are unnecessary. But without question I have learned a lot from reading her book so far. I’m definitely a fan.Zolablue,
Your, "just try it" comment reminds me of the ciabatta on my recent ski trip using instant yeast and a poolish, which I hadn't done in a while. I remember your comments along the lines of, "just deal with that wet dough". It was very uncomfortable, but I stuck with it, and just as you said, it came together. I never would have even thought of trying it, if you hadn't encouraged me to try ciabatta "Glezer style", let alone your comments on handling and good photos.
I think the flavor differences of different starters are certainly there, but I think they are subtle compared to the differences resulting from rise times and temperatures of preferments and proportions of preferments in the dough, and then rise times and temperatures of the dough itself.
One thing you might find interesting is to try making baguettes or some other classic shape with different "recipe starters". For example, if you use 500 grams of flour with 325 grams of water and 10 grams of salt for an overall dough recipe, then you could make three different versions. 1) add a couple of tablespoons of starter in the ingredients, mix and knead, and whatnot, let it rise, form and bake. 2) put a tablespoon of starter in 100 grams of flour and 50 grams of water, knead, and let it rise, retard, etc., then add the "recipe starter" to remainder of ingredients, let it rise, form, and bake. or, 3) put a tablespoon of starter in 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water, let it rise, retard, etc., then add to remainder of dough ingredients, let it rise, form, and bake.
You would have three breads that all have the same hydration and salt. However, each one would have different proportions of intermediate fermentations and hydrations. They all used your same initial starter. How do they compare in taste, texture, given you tried to handle them the same way and the total ingredients are the same?
Bill
...I will try that. That'a a great way to control things myself and really get a good feel for how my starter is affecting my dough.
Also, I am trying to figure out how to make the ABAA Acme Baguette recipe using my starter. Have you made that recipe? It is so good, I crave it. So while there is no need to change a great recipe I'd love to experiment with it. But it uses minute amounts of yeast, as you know Glezer can do, and incorporates both a poolish and scrap dough. I'm not quite sure if I'd handle them the same way; i.e., leaving one at room temp all night and the other out for 3 hours and then into the fridge. I think the rising times would be all off too but I'm going to consider it another challenge.
PS...I love wet dough! (grin)
Zolablue,
I've had a hard time matching flavors or textures from yeasted breads to sourdough versions of the same recipe. Remember the sourdough ciabatta I did? I was very happy with it, because the sourdough flavor was so good, especially for sandwiches, but the crumb wasn't like yours. I came a lot closer on my ski trip to something like yours, using yeast. However, the flavor of the sourdough ciabatta was not much like the flavor of the ciabatta made w/yeast.
So, I'd just "go for it". With your instinct for dough handling, I have a feeling you would figure out how to get the texture right. The flavor from the sourdough will automatically give you some acidity and some extra flavors, usually for the good, as far as I'm concerned, short of getting some unpleasant excess of sourness.
You could try the following, to just get rolling:
Make a "recipe starter" by mixing 30g of your starter to 185g of flour and 185 g of water. Let it rise by double, then refrigerate overnight. Next day, add "recipe starter" from the refrigerator to 170g water, 365g flour, 11g salt. Handle as you do so well, and bake.
You will find the sourdough acids affect the texture of the dough. You may want to do things like use higher protein or lower protein flour, or adjust hydration higher or lower, or change the salt a little, to get the right texture as you think it should be.
I bet there are some sourdough baguette masters who might see this and tell us how to make great sourdough baguettes.
Bill
You're such a great help to me. I really appreciate it. I love your passion for bread baking - we are all a bit obssessed, huh!
I did make a fabulous sourdough baguette from info ehanner posted on Mountaindog's thread about "oven spring and folding" although it was only adding some discarded starter to that recipe so it wasn't a true all sourdough. But it was an incredible exercise in mixing the dough all by hand on the counter. Gosh, now THAT was fun!
Thanks again for all your help. I'll let you know if I get any results worthy of passing on.
This past summer, after my successful yeast capture, I was astounded to see the amounts that Silverton suggested using to create a starter. (For a home baker?!) But I too love pretty much every other aspect of Nancy Silverton’s Breads from the La Brea Bakery.
When I first got the bread baking bug some years ago, I swore that I would never get to the point that I would bother capturing my own yeast. I remember staring in awe at the step by step accounts in Leader's Bread Alone and thinking it seemed awfully daunting. And then after reading Steingarten's hilarious chapter about capturing wild yeast in The Man Who Ate Everything, I was firm in my resolve to stick with active dry yeast.
It wasn't until this year, when I read Piano Piano Pieno by Susan McKenna Grant that I got up the courage to try capturing wild yeast. Her starter recipe is definitely aimed at the home cook who is likely to be making just a couple of loaves of bread at a time.
-Elizabeth
(wild yeast starter recipe based on McKenna Grant's recipe)
Andrew
...to just keep the starter firm and not even worry about converting it to batter for use in a non-Glezer recipe by using the percentages based on her recipes. In other words since most of her recipes use between 1 - 2 tablespoons of firm starter could I not just either somewhat wing it and use those amounts or learn the baker's percentages and use it that way.
While I'm curious about how the liquid starters work and taste I have such a great one going and it is so strong and active why rock the boat. Plus I agree with you that the amounts of flour being used just to maintain some of these starters, a.k.a. Silverton is outrageous.
Zolablue,
I'll be interested to hear how Andrew does it, but I thought I would toss in my two cents. I maintain a very small amount of batter style starter when it is just stored in the refrigerator. If I need a certain amount of liquid or firm starter as called for in a recipe, call it the "recipe starter", I just build the "recipe starter" by combining some amount of my refrigerated starter with the remaining flour and water that constitute the "recipe starter" and let it rise until it is ready to be used in the recipe. I think you could do the same thing with your firm starter as I do with my batter starter, i.e. build whatever "recipe starter" you need from your refrigerated firm starter.
Another approach is to use an amount of your starter, whatever consistency it may be, such that the same amount of flour is contributed to the recipe by your starter. The difference in water contributed by your particular starter is then made up in the dough or preferment recipes, such that you still have the same overall hydration in the preferments and final dough.
I see little difference between maintaining a firm or batter starter. I seldom throw out flour with my batter starter, as I store only a small amount and just build what I need when I need it. I agree some of the approaches, like Silverton, waste lots of flour, but that's just that author's particular bent, not anything specific to a batter starter. As Sourdough-guy said elsewhere, if you want to store for longer periods, it does make sense to switch to a firm starter, but that makes little practical difference if you are baking even only once every two months, as I have no problem refreshing my batter starter after two months.
Bill
You have some good instructions and we are discussing this on another site so I would love to pass along your info. You have good practice at converting to liquid. It seems to me most recipes call for liquid starters so perhaps this is why it appears most people gravitate towards that style. The conversion for liquid starter recipes is key to make them properly although another thing Glezer says is that many older recipes call for way too much starter.
I agree with the waste issue and, again, is another reason the firm works so well. And I can tell you I know for a fact Glezer did use her starter that was stored for 3 years and then refreshed only 5 times to bake bread. (wink)
I appreciate all your help. I may have a few more questions for you on this in the next few days so check back. I was hoping FINEART would see this as he/she asked about the firm starter before and I had not typed up the recipe. With all the problems I see posted on the starters lately I'd love to see if this one would work for those who are struggling. It has sure been a simple and great starter for me so far.
What I meant in my previous post was not to doubt that Glezer kept her starter for 3 years and then refresh it, only to say that I bet she couldn't have done the same with a liquid starter! I don't think they keep as well unfed.
What is the other site you are visiting? Is it as interesting and informative as this one? I find each visit here fascinating!!
I followed the recipe exactly although I did start with the one from Artisan Baking which begins with more flour and water. I hear ya on the difference between liquid and firm. But it also sounds like certain people are just having a problem no matter which type. That's a shame - I feel very lucky now that my first starter is the one I'm using today. Of course, it is only about 3 month's old.
I frequent the cooking forum on gardenweb. We, over there, are as passionate about cooking as people are about bread baking here and there are so many nice and helpful people who participate. Many there are expert bread bakers and have imparted some extremely helpful informatin to me as well. Don't know what I'd do without these sites.
I thought I would add my 2 cents here. I have been successfully baking sourdoughs sometimes with a firm starter and sometimes with a batter starter. Just about all of my breads have yielded really nice results. I have made Maggie Glezer's Thom Leonard country bread with the firm starter that is called for in the recipe, and just this weekend I tried it with my batter style starter. I think it was the best result yet. Now because of the number of variables involved, I really can't jump to conclusion that it was better because of the batter starter, but it did encourage me to continue using it. I think that it is easier to maintain a batter style starter- you don't need to do any kneading, just a bit of stirring and you are done. And I do not waste much flour, usually feeding only 2 ounces of flour each time.
Actually, I may really owe my good results to mountaindog (on this site) who contributed her interpretation of the Thom Leonard boule. Either her edition of the Artisan Baking book is different than mine, or she just added her take on the instructions. In my book, there is no autolyse mentioned for that bread, but I followed mountaindog's instructions, and I think it was really worthwhile. She also offered that she used 45 grams (I believe) of a batter starter in place of the 30 grams of firm starter called for in the recipe. I will try to find her instructions on this web and add the link if I can figure out how!!
...and I appreciate the info on how she used her batter starter because I remembered she is doing that. I was wondering how to know the amount to use just as I'm trying to learn how much of the firm starter to use, and how much water to add, to use in liquid-starter recipes.
I actually have both the hardcover and paperback versions of the Glezer book because I loved it so much. LOL. Ok, I'm crazy but its fun.
I have made the Thom Leonard boule/s a couple times and love the bread. It does have a 90-minute fermentation period right after mixing the dough, including 3 turns, and a 15-minute autolyse after turning the dough out of the bowl before shaping the loaves.
I'm learning that even though baking is generally a more exact science compared to cooking, it seems bread baking lends itself very well to much experimentation and that's another thing I love about it. I'd be interested to try a new liquid starter to compare to my firm one to see if I can determine a taste difference. Only for we obsessed bread bakers, huh! However I absolutely love the way the firm starter works and it is nothing to mix up that little dough ball.
I referred to mountaindog's interpretation of the Thom Leonard boule in my last post- to get to it- here is the link: [url=http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/1806/thom-leonard-country-french-boule-recipe/]mountaindog's description of the Thom Leonard recipe[/url]
I've seen that link before but thanks for linking it again. Great info!
Caryn, what recipe did you use for your liquid starter? Also, can you describe, if possible, just how you thought the bread tasted better? I understand what you mean about the variables and there are many. It is a nice comparison to make though.
Even Glezer will state the liquid starter is easier to maintain. I can't say because I've only done the one - perhaps another good reason to try liquid so I can speak with personal experience understanding both. I often find, though, that what many people think is difficult is not at all.
I am just getting back to this.
1. I created my starter by following the instructions in the BBA book, and then when it did not respond as well as I had thought, I added some water in which I had soaked some raisins!! That was a tip from someone on this site some time ago. When it became nice and active, I just did the routine refreshes with bread flour and water. I created my firm starter by following instructions to convert one from the other. I don't remember if the instructions that I followed were in the BBA book or the Glezer book. Then I maintained each separately. Glezer gives instructions for refreshing the firm starter, and for the batter starter, I usually refresh using the ratio of 1:2:2-starter to flour to water.
2. Actually there was only one time that I did not like the flavor of the Thom Leonard boule- it tasted absolutely flat, having very little taste (as if I had omitted salt, but did not!!). I had used the firm starter, but that might not have been the reason. It is possible that I over-kneaded it, trying to get the dough to pass the test ( I forget what it is called right now) where you can see a nice web effect when you pull a small piece of dough apart. Then, when the bread came out really well with the batter starter, I decided to primarily use that. It was not a very scientific conclusion, I will admit! :)
Zolablue,
Thanks for striking up a great dicsussion topic! I have a newbie question regarding the firm starter as I have only made a few loves using my batter type thus far.
1. The firm starter that everyone is discussing seems to resemble just a ball of dough that you grew from a slightly acidified and liquid starter. When this is done, you should have a small ball of dough correct?
2. I understand the conversion of a batter to a firm. (I am doing this currently AND converting to back to whole wheat) My question is that all I did was take the remaining mother batter I had which was about 1/4c (I'll pick up a scale soon as I am ready!) and poured that into a ss bowl and added some wheat flour and made a ball. I put this into a quart mason jar (sanitized because I can) and loosely put the lid on this. Next morning (today) it was 3 times the size and was all bubbly. When I put this into the jar, it was a firm dough, but now its a stringy webby looking dough. I had to pull this out and when I fed it, all I did was add more flour. No water. Is this correct? Should I be tossing some of this out? I usually keep growing as my current recipes call for a few cups of starter in batter form, so I try ti grow up a bit as I bake every few days.
3. Last question. When using a firm starter, do I just pull a piece off and toss it into a water and flour recipe? I never had to add water to my other recipes because the starter was high in liquid. If so how much starter dough per batch?
thanks. I am out today looking for Glezer's book!
Danmerk, I’ll try and answer your questions but I’m also very new to this. As I’ve stated before, I keep this starter because I wanted to make the recipes in Artisan Baking and they call for a firm starter. Also, know many on this site have made the recipes successfully using a batter starter.
I like this starter because I feel it is very stable and very consistent. It was actually made not from a liquid starter I already had rather this is my first starter made from Glezer’s instructions. Do note that her ingredient amounts to begin the starter in the book Artisan Baking have been cut in half for Blessing of Bread but they end up basically using the same amounts for final refreshments. It starts as a liquid but becomes firm on the third day. It is also very strong so a little goes a long way. In addition, it uses very little flour so I don’t feel as wasteful and I can keep it in a small pint jar instead of a quart jar or bigger. It also stores for longer periods of time as a firm starter – up to years unrefreshed.
Yes, it starts as a dough ball and as it grows it becomes very gooey. You simply take the amount necessary for a recipe and dissolve it in water. It is simple.
If you wish to use it in place of a liquid starter you simply take the amount of starter you wish to use (see Andrew’s instructions above) and add equal parts flour and water. Just make sure you are doing that with a good, strong firm starter that can quadruple in 8 hours or less, which is the gold standard for firm starters. Or use Glezer’s instructions for converting a batter starter to firm for those recipes that call for firm and you can still keep your liquid starter, if you like that best.
I have been successfully using my starter to replace yeast in other recipes by adding only the starter in the amount I wish - even discarded, unrefreshed starter that has been stored for 2 – 3 days in my refrigerator – and creating a levain the night before (much as Glezer does in Artisan Baking recipes) and simply adding it to the regular dough recipe. I then add a bit of salt to compensate for the additional flour in my starter. I think it was L_M on this site who steered me towards how to do that. As an example, if I use 75 grams of my firm starter I add 1/8 teaspoon salt. That’s what Rose Levy Beranbaum posted about doing on her site.
My starter is kept at 15 grams starter and refreshed with 30 grams water and 50 grams flour. Once the temps get consistently warmer outdoors I’ll take it down to 10g/30g/50g.
I posted the link to my photos above but in case you missed that here is the succession of my starter from mixing to quadrupling in 8 hours. I’m sorry, I do not know about making a wheat starter although Glezer says you do not have to keep a separate rye starter. She gives instructions on how to make an overnight conversion to use in any recipe calling for a rye levain. I would suppose it is the same for whole wheat but not sure. Others, I hope, will chime in.
Starts out as this little dough ball – takes only a minute to knead:
Plop in a pint jar and I smoosh it down and mark where the top is:
At 4 hours a dome has formed and it has more than doubled:
At 6 hours it has grown about 2 1/2 times by volume:
By just before the 8 hours it had quadrupled:
This photo taken out of the above sequence only to show it once it has collapsed:
MD, I tend to overthink things (nah, who me?) and I believe I needed to make a liquid starter for myself to see the differences. I posted elsewhere I started Hamelman's liquid starter recipe on May 8 and I was amazed at how easy and quick that starter took off. I did change his feeding amounts after a week though to 100% from his 125% using 60g each of starter, water, and flour. But I had so many questions because Hamelman doesn't really go into much detail as Glezer does and I was unsure of when I needed to catch it to bake with. I do still want to understand it and thanks to Bill's comprehensive post on the 100% he answered a lot of questions.
And now I think I have solved the mystery of liquid vs firm starter. Drum roll...the liquid starter has more water! (lol) I know this is personal but I didn't find it any easier, in fact, more difficult for me to keep it. It has to be fed way more often and with my firm starter you know without a doubt exactly how active it is.
I baked the 100% WW sourdough today using the new starter converted to WW per your instructions (thanks). I also mixed up a batch of Columbia last night using my new liquid white starter just to compare any differences. I'll bake those loaves tomorrow. But I already know that they'll perform and taste the same.
If you're interested I'll be happy to help with what I've learned about the firm starter. Maggie said one of the easiest ways to kill a starter is to feed too often. I know I was doing that early on and it would always get just so far and then never quadruple. Once I went to roughly 24-hour feedings it just took off. Then as I refrigerate it off and on that seems to help it as well.
I'm so glad I successfully made another starter but I would never trade my firm starter. I think it is easier to mix and store and uses such small quantities of flour. I love that sucker!
Zolablue,
Hope you don't mind I jump in here on your comment to mountaindog (Hi Mountaindog).
I love what you said - the mystery is solved - there's a different amount of water in each starter - otherwise not that different. That's pretty much how I feel about it. I know there are some differences in flavor that will develop as a function of consistency, but as far as I can tell, the differences aren't that large.
Other than that, I guess trying out firm starter maintenance is on my long list of stuff to try. I'm not sure I agree that the feeding schedules are all that different once you get your 100% hydration starter going. In other words, refreshing after you take it out of the refrigerator, as I was reading in Glezer for the firm starer, seems quite similar to what would happen with the 100% hydration starter. I also keep a fairly small amount of starter in the refrigerator for storage, and with a little planning can build my 100% starter up for use in recipes with very little starter being thrown out. However, I can see that you work with very small amounts, and the idea of a nice dry and small dough sitting in the refrigerator sounds convenient and neat and clean, too. So, you've got me paying attention and thinking about giving it a try, especially since you switched back and forth without any trouble. Gives me some confidence to mess with the methods here.
I don't doubt Glezer's comments about overfeeding, in fact you've won me over as a Glezer fan, but my experience has been that one of the easiest mistakes you can make with the liquid starters, which may be less common with a firm starter, is to underfeed it, rather than overfeed it. Since doubling times are roughly 2 hours in an unsalted paste at room temperature, you really have to feed often, like 1:2:2 every 4 hours (5x volume increase) to really get far enough ahead of the growth rates of a healthy culture to actually dilute it enough to kill it. On the other hand, if you leave a normal 100% starter at 76F for 24 hours, the fermentation product levels get very high, and some of the organisms may go into a steep decline, changing the balance of the culture for the worse. That's why I'm not a fan of leaving a culture out at room temperature for maintenance, even if that's how it was done for 1000s of years. As an aside, my dad says my great grandmother kept her culture in the kitchen and used it to feed sourdough pancakes to the ranch hands every morning and make fresh bread every afternoon. Even so, I say keep the culture in the refrigerator.
As always, I much enjoy your commentary and your enthusiasm. I'm inspired once again to start playing with starters, especially trying out converting over to Glezer's technique for a while to see how it goes - reverse of your latest experiments.
Bill
ZB - thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I will give the firm a try again and see if I can keep it strong. I think my earlier problem may have been a too young starter and possible over-feeding. Agree with Bill though on how easy it is to underfeed a wet starter, esp. as the weather gets warmer.
Bill - that's a nice piece of family history about your great-grandmother cooking on the ranch - she was probably feeding her starter frequently anyhow since she was using it twice a day between the pancakes and the bread, so maybe she didn't need the refrigeration after all?
Hi Mountaindog,
I imagine my great grandmother must have fed her starter at least a couple of times a day if she was making pancakes in the morning and bread in the afternoon. You're right that there was therefore not much risk of underfeeding even in warm weather. My routine is far more erratic. I bake about 2-4 times per month or so, reviving the starter a day or two before, and slice and freeze the bread and refrigerate the starter in between.
Zolablue, thanks again for all the information on the firm starter approach.
Bill
(So to speak.:o)
Mountaindog – honestly, I started mine on January 4 of this year (my sister’s BD so I can always remember) and it was SUPER cold here. I know that had a lot to do with my somewhat slow start. Or rather it performed exactly as Glezer stated but once it got to the triple part I could not get it to quadruple. She says you just need to keep refreshing until it does and I was not confident about that at the time and got really frustrated.
I had a chance to correspond with Glezer – she is FABULOUS! And super generous and kind. I was able to ask her a lot of questions and she really helped me. It was then I was able to really make this thing take off. That’s when she told me about not overfeeding a firm starter. Still, you have to persevere to get it to the quadruple point by continuing to refresh. And once temps warmed up here that made an enormous difference.
She wants you to eventually take it to 10g starter:30g water:50g flour but I’ve never been able to make it quadruple yet doing that so I have been happy to keep it at 15g S:30g W:50g F. I see how it is very different with a wetter starter as it just doesn’t have the amount of flour. But so far that's all I can see as different.
She explained the flexibility of this type of starter “if you wait for it to fully rise and fall” and then says, “it can then wait even 12 hours for a feeding, which is the beauty of the firm starter. It is so packed with flour that the pH falls slowly, and there is plenty of sugar for the flora…”
That is when she told me she had just revived a starter she had stored in her refrigerator unfed for 3 years. She gave it 5 refreshments and had dough rising at that moment. That made a big impact on me because while my schedule is more flexible than some others I really wanted that kind of option.
Andrew
Bill, I wanted to mention to you that she kind of updated her instructions in her more recent book, Blessings of Bread, and changed some of the amounts and times so that’s the one I think I posted above. Bascially, I think she cut down on starter amount and rounded the water and flour so it is slightly different and that’s the one I go by.
Also, you probably already know this, but it is not in the form of a dough ball except when you first mix it. As it rises it turns into this sticky, gooey, kind of webbed airy thing. So when you use it you have a nice sticky substance. I think people (not you) confuse this with pate fermente or biga instead of a firm sourdough starter. Same as theirs just has more flour and less water. But very strong in the French method of doing.
I’m going to keep feeding my new Hamelman starter in order to gain more first-hand experience. I may even try to go back to Hamelman’s 125% feeding schedule. It is a beautiful starter – again, so easy, I’m wondering why so many people have such a hard time creating one. Is it that I use KA flour? Anyway, it took just over a week and it was going great and smelling delicious. I just took it out of the fridge today where it had been unfed for the past 3 days and has risen by a quarter in 1 ½ hours. I think that must be pretty good for one started a couple weeks ago.
I also love hearing your grandmother’s story. I think those things keep us connected as families and also allow us to pass on these things to others who can appreciate them.
Andrew!!! Happy birthday to your starter! I believe it is 3 years as I remember. You have been one to help me so much with the firm starter when I was getting frustrating early on. You are the only other person on this site I know of that uses the Glezer starter!
Hi Zolablue,
I have a sense of what the firm starter would be like in consistency, based on your description. When I know I'm going to be leaving my starter in the refrigerator for a while, I thicken it up and get a consistency partway to what you're describing.
Do you recommend getting "The Blessings of Bread", i.e. does it have new, interesting information/recipes in it above and beyond "Artisan Baking"? I may want to get it. After your many references to Glezer, I got Artisan Baking and think it's excellent.
Thanks again for the firm starter information. I do want to try it out. I'm part of the way to Andrew's approach anyway, and maybe I should just switch over and maintain it as a firm starter regularly. I do see some advantages to it. There's little disadvantage in baking, since it's then a simple matter to build starters of any consistency from there for recipes, so it would all be about the same as far as baking goes.
As far as the stories of my great grandmother doing sourdough pancakes and breads for the ranch hands, you're right that those stories and the connections they make are fun to discover. Originally that part of my family were homesteaders in Montana. My grandmother took me to the original site of the homestead one time when I was about 12 years old. I only heard the story about the sourdough baking my great grandmother did when my dad saw me make some sourdough pancakes for Christmas a couple of years ago, and it sparked a memory from his childhood.
Bill
Floyd has written a really nice review of the book and, btw, I said the title wrong. It is A Blessing of Bread: The Many Rich Traditions of Jewish Baking Around the World to be exact. I have to admit I have not taken the time to read the book yet except for the sourdough parts which are much more comprehensive but I'm not sure you need the info. I have read through some of the recipes and plan to try many of them.
So I like the book, LOVE Glezer's methods, but you would have to decide if those are breads you want to bake. Actually, Andrew, turned me onto the book because of the additional sourdough info and I scampered to buy it as I was struggling alone and it is when I first started posting here. Luckily Andrew was right there to help me with the Glezer starter.
Read Floyd's review:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/bookreviews/ablessingofbread
...and see the book on Amazon.
You are right about how to keep a starter and simply change the hydration levels for storing and recipes. Actually, Hamelman has quite a lot of recipes specifying a stiff starter so that's kind of cool. I like how he differentiates and he does say he thinks it is important to the integrity of the author's recipe to use what they call for. I don't know about that personally as I don't think my palate is quite that developed. :o)
I baked Columbia again yesterday using Mountaindog's levain for using the liquid starter and it turned out fabulous!
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
I've been consulting w/the Glezer firm starter guru here, and a couple of months ago I switched part of my 100% starter over to a Glezer firm starter. I've been feeding it 10g:30g:50g and it rises by about 3.5x in 8 hours. I've been just feeding it every 12-24 hours depending on what's convenient, hoping it will eventually speed up as described by Zolablue, and now by you, too.
I see that you aren't sure what may have helped, but if there are some things that occur to you that may have affected it for the better, I'd be interested to know. Even if you aren't sure, just knowing what might be some of the factors would be interesting.
Meanwhile, just as you say, the starter makes perfectly fine bread, and the rise times aren't inordinately long. However, ZB and I have compared rise times in a couple of different ways, and it seems clear that her starter is quite a bit faster. If only for convenience, let alone that a more vigorous starter may make it easier to get certain recipes to work (I love SD focaccias, for example), I would find it interesting to get my starter to speed up to be like yours and ZB's.
Long and short of it, any clues would be appreciated, no matter how speculative.
Bill
That is great news, Andrew. I know I had to work a bit at getting mine to do that when I created this starter in such frigid weather. But once it did - watch out! Then I took it down from the 20g:30g:50g (starter:water:flour) to 15g:30g:50g and it was quadrupling and sometimes would quintuple within the necessary time period, so I know what you're saying. It is exciting!
Recently I've been conferring with Bill (bwraith) about starters and he inspired me to try again to take it down to 10g:30g:50g (as Maggie had also told me to do). I had done that in the past but it had not quadrupled soon enough for me (I guess) and because I had such a very strong and active starter at 15g:30g:50g I would panic (hehe) and go back to using what I was comfortable with.
Now using the 10g:30g:50g it is quadrupling often in only 7 hours and I am very happy. Due to some other experiments I believe I did prove that my first starter is indeed quite a lot stronger made this way. Compared to my liquid starter (I had to try it) there is really no comparison in strength so far but it is still very new.
Maybe if you feel brave you'll start taking it down or just make another one, splitting yours, taking the starter amount down and experimenting. Maggie is right that you just keep refreshing until it meets that gold standard for firm starters, of quadrupling in 8 hours or less, and it works! I'm very happy to hear your good fortune with your starter as I know you have had it a long time.
Of course, I remember all about this, Andrew, as you were so kind and very helpful to me when I first started posting on this forum not all that long ago.
I love those! Thanks to you I purchased Blessings of Bread which expands a bit on the sourdough info. I do what Glezer recommends in that book which is to refresh the starter at 30g:30g:50g and refrigerate it immediately upon mixing. That is for long-term refrigerator storage. I have two of those in my fridge.
She was extremely generous. I asked permission to post this informationn and her reply was how could she ever refuse when her books relied on the most generous information and sharing of those wonderful artisan bakers. Wow! She is something else, very humble, very kind and generous and passionate. I do love many other books and other bakers but I have found Glezer's methods, for me, taught me the most and are ones I'm the most comfortable with. Everyone has a different person or author that speaks to them.
One of the most important things she told me was to stop watching the clock for time to refresh but watch the starter. She said, as I probably said above, that she has killed many starters by over feeding them. She stressed to let it fully rise and begin to collapse and then wait up to 12 hours AFTER it had collapsed to feed it again. Once I tried that - and it was scary - my starter really took off. Before that I was not getting the quadruple - almost but not quite - and it showed me I had just plain fed it too often.
For instance. if I refreshed my starter and it quadrupled in 8 hours and then perhaps took 2 - 4 more hours to collapse I would wait another 12 hours (even more at times) which would mean I could refresh it once every 24 hours. It makes keeping a starter active and at room temperature a very easy proposition.
Thanks for your information on this ZB!Andrew
ZB, Andrew,
Whew, maybe it's a breakthrough. My converted Glezer firm starter just rose by a full 4x in about 7 hours, and then filled the container at about 5.5x after about 9 hours. I had to stir it down. So, is it working? Mebbe so, mebbe not. Because, I changed containers. The new one is wider. I wonder if it can climb the sides more easily with a wider container? Still, it seems to be going much faster the last couple of feedings. I have been letting it run almost 24 hours each time, as long as it was convenient. The last feeding was actually a higher ratio, too - 10:36:60 (10.6x), but it still rose by 4x in about 7 hours (temp was about 78F, but it never rose by more than 3.5x, let alone in 7 hours, at the same temp before). I guess the proof will be to see how it does in a "race" with my liquid starter, which is still raising a 10:45:90 (10.5x) feeding by double in about 4.75 hours at around 78F.
So, when I get a chance, I'll do equal flour multiple tests and see which starter is faster these days.
Bill
Hey firm starter comrades,
I recently purchased artisan baking and decided to build a starter as per maggies instructtions a few weeks ago. it had been very active and i'd gotten a few really tasty loaves out of it. I had been keeping it at room temp and refreshing it about every 12 hours, whenever it looked ready. This past week it's been ridiculously hot (95 in my kitchen all week) and it over ripened a few times aand its no longer sour but smells vaguely alcoholic and tastes a little sweet. Does anyone know how to rescue a starter in this state? Today i used a smaller portion of starter when i refreshed it, but i'm not sure that'll. any help would be appreciated.
thanks,
benji
Benji, so sorry I did not see your post eariler. I’m not an expert on this by any means, in fact, I’ve only had my starter for about 6 1/2 months. Wish bwraith was around because he could answer this for you definitively. Hopefully he’ll be back online in a short time and we’ll all have answers to this question. I would venture to say however that if you get an alcoholic smell in your starter it is due to not being fed often enough. If you search the site on this subject I'm sure you will find your answer. I am sure it should be the same for a firm starter as for a batter type starter in that regard.
Hey Zola, don't sweat it.
61/2 months is planty of expertise to me, haha. I've been baking bread for about a year now and had just ventured into sourdough for round 2 when this whole bit happened. I did some looking around on this site and that world wide web contraption and the general consenus was that I had not refreshed my starter enough, but damned if I could find an answer on how to get it back. For four days I halved the amount of fermented starter and used ice water when i refreshed it and it seemed to be on its way to recovery but then I fell asleep one night without feeding it and by the time I had gotten back to it, it was a soupy mess. I threw a good old-fashioned baker's tantrum and like that it was in the garbage. Luckily, I had gotten lazy one day and just stashed some starter in the fridge instead of cleaning out the container, so this week I'm going to try and revive it. Hopefully, things will go well.
benji
Hi Zolablue,
I've just converted a portion of one of my starters (from Dan Lepards book - 80% hydration) to become a firmer starter according to the feeding directions from Maggie Glezer you mentioned here (10:30:50). I didn't find the room temperature mentioned anywhere above, and for the summer we have something like 27C at night and 30C during the day, so for now it is just plain hot (and very humid - about 75%...). I'm afraid that if I leave it for the extra 12 hours after it collapes then it might actually be too long, so what I'd like to know is what does your starter look like when those 12 hours are up? Has it risen again? Is it looser than when you started out? Different smell? Any other signs to know when it really should be feed again? Thanks for any advise.
L_M
L_M – I am not sure Glezer ever states the optimum temperature for keeping a starter at room temperature. I will have to look for that. I know that temperature does have an effect on which bacteria are growing and, again, bwraith is the one that has so much in his head about all this.
First, I would say to pay more attention to how your starter looks at a certain time rather than going by what time has elapsed. I was urged to just watch my starter and make sure that it quadruples in 8 hours or less to be optimum for baking. Then the main thing about refreshing is to make sure it has collapsed and then it is up to your own discretion as to when you think it works best to feed.
For me, my starter will generally quadruple in about 7 hours. My kitchen is generally ranging from 72°F – 75°F. I will check it at the 8-hour mark (unless in the wee hours) and then watch its behavior. It will respond a couple different ways depending on its recent feeding schedule. Sometimes it just stays domed or it may continue to grow a bit in volume. I have a habit of picking up the jar to check it after it has quadrupled and often when I do, that will cause it to begin to deflate. I have noticed sometimes it does start to expand again and this can happen several times.
Other times, it will grow to the necessary volume and stay at that point (especially if I leave my hands off it) and then will begin to collapse anywhere from one hour to several hours later. It just depends on temp, I think, and how long I had waited to refresh it prior times.
My starter always seems to smell the same except when I have not refreshed it for over 24 hours, which I don’t really like to do often. It then might have the slightest bit of a more sharp scent but even then it is really very sweet smelling and fragrant. I’m very comfortable with refreshing every 21 – 22 hours because, like you, I just would rather not have it have to work too hard to keep healthy.
As far as texture, it starts as the dough ball and as it expands it become very sticky and light and webbed. Very puffy and airy and gooey.
Please let me know if this helps you at all or if I have not answered you properly. Again, I’m still new at this but if I can help at all I’d like to try.
It is so interesting that you mention this bread. It is a recipe I keep wanting to try having not made a single recipe from that book yet. How do you like it?
I’m afraid with just the two of us I could never use up all my discarded starter even with giving bread weekly to my neighbors. I do dump it into other recipes whenever I can though.
Out of curiosity, what is the largest volume of discarded starter you've used in a single recipe?
Zolablue thanks for your explanations about what it looks like during the different stages. Somehow I still feel that the golden rule may different if the room temp is much warmer than yours - maybe it should quadruple faster than in 8 hours... so for a few days I'll continue to refesh a few hours after it collapes and I'll keep my eyes open for signs to learn it's behavior.
About those discards - go wild! I never throw any away - just save them in a container in the fridge and put a glob of it into anything that I bake. I can't say that it makes such a difference in the taste but at least it makes me feel better that I haven't thrown any away! Yeast bread, cakes, cookies, casseroles... anything...hmmm...just thought of meat loaf but haven't tried it yet.
I'll let you know how things go
L_M
The golden rule for a firm starter is always going to be quadrupling in 8 hours or less but the "or less" part is important. It can obviously quadruple much quicker and that only means you have a very strong starter ready to raise bread dough. I’m sure your warmer temps contribute to it quadrupling quicker.
One thing, I noticed, when I first decreased the amount of starter I was keeping to feed from 15g to 10g, it seemed to collapse much quicker. As temps got warmer and I have been busy working on landscaping I was concerned that I did not have as much time with it using only the 10g and a couple weeks ago I reverted back into my comfort zone of using 15g. You might actually want to try that and see if it gives you more time.
Then a couple days ago I did the side-by-side test using 10g & 15g to see how they compared and while the 15g mixture rose quicker, by the time the 8 hours had elapsed they were almost identical in volume but the 10g one collapsed quicker. Just yesterday I tried another experiment using 12g and it quadrupled in 8 hours (instead of its usual 7 hours) but then it took at least another 5 hours to collapse. So I really have no idea what all this means!
My point to you is, why not experiment and see if using a bit more starter to refresh gives you some help since your temps are so warm in your kitchen. Also, when I know I am going to be unable to refresh it when I wish to, I stick it into the fridge. Then when I go to refresh it the next day it often has gotten some kind of boost from that - I have no idea why. I think a lot of this is just a mystery. Who knows what all those little boogers are doing in there! :o)
Your starter is ready to use as soon as it is able to quadruple in 8 hours time or less. You have accomplished that! The peak time of ripeness is just when it has started to collapse but you can use it any time as long as it has begun to collapse.
For use in a recipe, in Glezer's first book she wants you to have refreshed the starter within the last 8 hours but in her second book she extends that to 12. I have used my starter hours after it has been refreshed, risen fully and then collapsed and it has always worked extremely well. So you can see you have quite a lot of flexibility there.
The confusion may be in that you have a longer period of time after the starter has collapsed before you need to feed it again. Depending on variables you have up to 12 hours (I've gone longer) after your firm starter has collapsed before it needs to be refreshed. Hope this helps but if not please let me know and I'll check back in tomorrow. :o)
Thanks, Zolablue, that clears it up nicely--I'd call that good news, too. I thought maybe I'd been putting it to work several hours too soon.
Didn't expect to like this firm starter but something about it keeps me hooked. Probably because it is a good performer--I might not be so taken if it needed intensive care. And it's another excuse to play with dough. Now if only my breads would be as obliging!
I have been watching this thread for a few days and it makes me wonder if you aren't getting some of the benefits of the second stage of the Detmold-3 process. In the DM-3 which has been written about and popularised by Samartha here in the US, the second stage is very firm. He says that the slightly warmer (74-82 F) temp coupled with the 66% hydration encourages the growth of the LB's which helps the flavor or sour. I have also observed that the starter is very vigorous and when used with AP flours gives a great rise. As I understand it the yeast will live happily beside the LB's if encouraged to propagate. Perhaps it is the combination of the two types of bacteria growing that makes a firm starter so effective.
Samartha has a calculator that allows you to build up a certain amount of starter for any given size loaf and percentage of rye/wheat. I've found that it works equally well for wheat based flours while using the rye starter. I'm convinced that it's the hydration and 24 hours time that affects the growth of the LB's and not the temp. It's worth looking at just to understand how it works. http://samartha.net/SD/
Eric
Zolablue, this is all a mystery to me...I wish someone would invent some sort of special glasses for the home bakers (not a microscope) that when you wear them you can see what is actually going on inside of the starter - yeast would be one colour, and maybe another colour for each of the different bacteria... but in the meantime back to real life!
Alas, I am also guilty of always picking it up to check how it is rising and I was actually very surprised that it was so fragile (much more so than my other starters at 100% and 80% hydration) and it collaped before I thought it had finished rising. And, surprisingly enough it didn't even rise again. I think I'll stick with the 10 gr at feeding time for the next few days simply because I want to keep it constant so I can monitor any changes, but after that if I'm not happy with the results I'll go to the 15 gr like you suggested. So far it hasn't even quadrupled yet, so it looks like I still have some waiting to do.
For it's last feeding I had left it for 12 hours on the counter after it collapsed (when I picked it up) and then I stashed it in the fridge for another 7 hours, so maybe that was a bit too extreme / maybe not ... by feeding time it did smell alot like yeasty beer and the texture was still quite stiff, so I hope it's ok. They are promising a heat wave for the next few days so I'm going to keep an eye on things that I don't overdo the counter time.
As before, my goal is to make a very mild loaf and so far with my other starters no matter what I've tried, the flavour of the bread is always very intense. Maybe this is a winner! Thanks again.
L_M
L_M – You mentioned your starter being fragile so I wanted to point out that my starter does not collapse even when I pick it up until after it has already quadrupled. When it is growing it seems pretty strongly domed until it becomes fully expanded and that is when it can collapse from a light touch but it is already very airy by then.
I think what you are doing sounds ok but you just need more time and feeding at your ratios until it quadruples. I will say, I never did go down to 10g (from 15g) until it was able to quadruple at that ratio (15:30:50). Then when I took it down to 10:30:50 it did not quadruple right away and that’s why I at first abandoned the 10g and went back to the 15g. Then when I decided I needed to take it down again to the 10g, it quadrupled in, I think, 2 feedings. At any rate, you should be able to get it strong enough to get to quadruple and once you learn how it best likes to be fed that will happen. Again, for me, I had to give it more time in between feedings to strengthen it.
As far as the flavor, I really cannot seem to make a very sour loaf, which for me is good. I know that goes against everything you read about the firm starter but I think it is oft simply repeated and not known by personal experience. I’m very happy with the flavor my starter imparts to bread because I prefer the more mild tasting sourdough. It has always had the most incredible, sweet fragrance – wish I could describe it better. Hang in there and please let me know if there is anything else I can help with and I’ll try.
Oh, thought I should say I’m really back to the 10g myself. It seemed to hold its strength longer than the 15g one I made in the side-by-side experiment yesterday. So that was good. You just never know!
Browndog – glad you are having good luck with the firm starter. It really gives you so much more flexibility.
Eric – I will check out your link. If it states though that the firm starter makes more sour bread that is not correct. I can only speak from my own starter but it produces consistently very mild and flavorful sourdough breads. I’m not sure what all is going on in there but whatever it is I like it. :o) My starter seems to be extremely happy and there must be some wild party going on with whomever the invited guests are as they seem to be a really compatible group.
One thing I have found, is that it seems to raise my bread dough must quicker than often stated in recipes. That is how I discovered, finally, that I was way overproofing my doughs and having so much trouble getting proper slashes. I still have to work on that because sometimes I just don't want to believe what I'm seeing thinking it is too quick. But if I pay better attention and notice that it is really raising my doughs so much quicker I get better bread. Oy! :o)
Zolablue,
The relationship between time and flavor can't be ignored. If your starter rises your bread quickly in your particular kitchen environment, perhaps you should try using less starter to stretch out the ferment time and further improve the flavor. Or, you could try and lower the temp of the final dough to slow it down. My breads are always better when I start with a smaller inoculation of starter. The same thing you are discussing above when you changed your feeding routine from 10 g to 15 g and got different results, is happening in the final dough. What ever the combination or ratio of yeast/LB's is in your starter, it seems to be a very active culture.
There are sooo many variables that will affect outcome and then your own determination of the "perfect flavor" is really indescribable. The best you can hope for is to be able to reliably predict the outcome of your ferment in a given time by managing the variables under your control. I'm still amazed that I can raze a formula with 1200 grams of flour, using a scant 15 gram's of starter. This stuff is prolific!
L_M, the thing about your starter being sensitive: That might have more to do with the type of flour being used to feed. I have gone to using first clear flour for feedings in my white semi-firm and it's very strong. Maybe Zolablue mentions what she uses above, I don't recall at the moment. That would be an important distinction.
Eric
Zolablue, I will certainly hang in there if mine will also be fast rising and sweet smelling like yours. My starters are all slow and my bread always takes longer than the recipe states it should - just the opposite from yours. I have a feeling that's why the flavour is always so intense. So far today I've managed to keep my hands off, and it has now reached a bit more than triple in 9 hours, and it looks like it is still on the rise, but I'm going to sleep so I won't really know what happens during the night.
Eric thanks for posting that link and now that you have mentioned this info, I'm very interested to see what flavour mine will produce.
Hopefully only a few more days before it'll be strong enough to bake with.
L_M
Things are looking good - starter is rising faster by now, and isn't so fragile anymore.
Eric you may be right about the differences in flour, but I really don't have too much choice around here. Both AP and bread flour have 11% protein and there is not very much info on the flour bag itself, but I have made sourdough breads before and the dough does hold out well. I think what happened was the first and second feedings were according to the instructions but I forgot to take into account that my starter was looser to begin wiith and therefore it didn't really end up at 60% hydration. When it had risen to just over triple it collapsed when I moved it, so it does sound reasonable to me that a looser starter just wasn't as sturdy.
So far I've had the best luck as far as taste and having the dough rise within with the suggested time in the recipe, using a very small amount of starter - the recipe I've used is the one Sourdough-guy posted here and it sounds like the same idea as you mentioned Eric - very easy as well!
L_M
That one step sd formula from SDG is a keeper. To be honest I am always in such a rush to get things done that it seems like I never give myself time to use the small amount of starter he calls for. I'll use 200 g instead of 15 so I can bake later that day. It's still pretty good bread but if I just follow the formula and allow 16-20 hours (less in the heat) it is remarkable bread and so easy. It's sort of like a NYT for those who aren't afraid to shape dough really. Everyone should have a good reliable formula that you can knock out every time with no worries. That's it for me.
Eric
Zolablue, my starter is also robust like yours - it doesn't collpapse easily if at all! I've done as you suggest and tried Glezers 10 grams - which works, quadruples in about 5 hours and it crests eventually - but I've gone back to my more haphazard approach with 20 grams starter 30 water and 50 flour,letting that sit for 8 hours then adding 100 grams of water and 100 of flour, letting that sit over night and adding to that for the final dough the next morning for a loaf I can bake that evening. It works really well for me and because it is a routine which fits very well with my working hours, is easier than waiting for the starter to crest etc.
Eric, what is the one step formula from SDG? Do I take it that a small amount of starter is added to the full amount of flour / water / salt for the final dough in one go? If so - sounds interesting! What about kneading / folding etc?
Thanks
Andrew
First let me say that I don't know high the starter rose and how long it took during the night, but it had collapsed by this morning. Today at 23 hours after the last feed I checked the ph and it was 3.64 so I hope that is a good sign. Now that it got fed again I'm waiting for it to quadruple (hopefully), then I'll use some of the starter to make the dough but I won't feed the rest of it until tomorrow morning. That way I'm hoping to get a mild loaf, but not feed the starter too soon. Does it sound like a good/bad idea? All comments welcome!!
Andrew, if I may answer your question - yes that is basically the idea. No kneading necessary, just a fold or 2 along the way after an hour or so, and maybe one more an hour later if you are around. Very, very convenient once you know how much starter to use to have the dough ready to bake when you want it. Try it - you might get hooked.
L_M
Eric - I think if you haven’t kept a firm starter you can’t appreciate how strong they are which is why you only need a very small amount to raise dough. The recipes I’ve used written specifically for firm starters are all in the range of 25g – 35g firm starter. There is definitely a difference in rise times during cold winter months compared to hot summer months but that is simply the nature of sourdough. I feed my starter with only King Arthur bread flour which has a protein level of 12.7%.
L_M – I would think your flour is fine. Hamelman’s book states to feed with white bread flour containing a protein level of 11% to 12%.
I’m not sure I would wait quite that many hours after the last feed unless I knew it had easily quadrupled in the proper time frame. Once it quadruples that simply shows you how strong it has become and it can easily take that extra time before you refresh it. But I would be tempted to feed it a little more often just until you can see it really gaining strength. That would be my advice. But I’m sure you can bake bread with it at this point no matter what. Just continue feeding and allow it to build its strength. I think you’ll find no matter what you do it will be a very flavorful starter and never harsh or acidic.
Andrew – Yes, my starter is also very robust and fast and I really have no idea why. But it is a good thing, eh?
Well the plan did work, and I must say that even though the dough's rising times were slightly faster than before, the taste of the bread was still very intense - not at all harsh or acidic but I'd still prefer it to be milder. So far the starter only reaches around triple so I'm hopeful that if I just continue feeding it will get stronger and that will speed things up and the flavour will be milder.
Zolablue I'm a bit confused from your last comment about not waiting too long before it's next feeding, as I understood that waitng the extra time after it collapses is actually good for a starter that is not that strong yet - making sure not to overfeed. BUT, in a strong starter that already works according to the golden rule, waiting the extra time is a convenient option. Did I misunderstand you, or is that correct?
L_M
Yes, you are right that it is very easy to overfeed a firm starter when you are trying to get it going, at least that is my experience and as I noted above (which you're also probably referring to) is that Glezer herself said she has killed many starters this way.
I thought I understood that your starter was only tripling in 9 hours and because you said it was very fragile I assumed it was collapsing shortly after that or that you could not know since it would have been during the night. Then if you were feeding it only once every 23 hours you could be waiting up to 14 hours after the collapse before feeding. That can and does work for me although sometimes when I really push it over several days I can tell my starter needs to beef up a twee bit. So I was only talking about 1 - 3 hours sooner feeding as a possibility.
Again, you know best by simply watching the behavior and you can tell if it is gaining strength or not. It just goes to show there is no hard and fast rule about having to watch the clock; rather watch your starter and feed to keep it going the way you want it to. And I definately notice more of a lag if I feed it too soon rather than later. Gosh, I hope that helped and isn't just more confusing.
Zolablue I think everything is clear, but now that I see you are concerned about pushing the limit for only 1 -3 hours, I'm really wondering whether I can go by other signs rather than just the clock. This is what I've noticed so far... it now takes about 7 - 8 hours to triple and doesn't seem to rise any higher than that. At that point the top is in a very nice strong dome and not fragile at all. It will stay like that for another hour or so and then it starts to look a bit torn in a few spots and the surface starts to look rumpled. That is the point I've been calling "collapse". From then on it starts to lose height very slowly but still keeps the rumply domed surface and this can go on for about 8 - 9 hours. Then it will flatten out and finally start to sink down and there will be high marks on the container. (So far this firm starter has never picked itself up to rise again like the looser ones would after they sank down.) After this final "sink" there would still be about 2 hours left before the 12 hours from the start of the collapse was up. I wait those 2 hours, then feed. Now I'm wondering...if that wasn't too long. What do you think - do you let yours get to the sinking point? I agree, it sound better to go by signs rather than the clock. Thanks again for taking the time to explain this to me.
L_M
Sounds like you are right on track if your starter is now tripling by 1 - 2 hours faster. You are simply buildig up its strength so I think you should keep doing it the way you have been. I know it really took me several weeks to get my starter to quadruple even after it had easily tripled and I thought at that time it was because my outdoor temps here were simply so frigid. Once it happens it will just happen and astound you! It is actually exciting.
If you scroll up this thread to my photos you will see in the last one where it has collapsed. That photo was taken at the point where it had just collapsed as it will actually flatten out or sink slightly in the center after more time. I don't think I have ever noticed high marks on my container because it always sticks to the sides and flattens in the area that has domed. That could just be due to the container I use though.
I really never noticed any second or third rise until it had been quadrupling (and quintupling) for some time and then, as I said, only after I would handle it. And I really don't think that means anything important anyway. It was simply an observation.
You are doing it right so keep on going but make sure you keep us informed. It's cool you are giving it a try.
Hi Zolablue, this is getting exciting! Today it took only 6 -7 hours to triple, so it really looks like it is getting stronger - no signs of it growing any higher yet, but don't worry I have a lot of patience. As long as I'm sure it's going in the right direction I'll keep at it.
I think maybe "high marks" wasn't the right choice of words because it is really more like you have described - sticking to the sides and the part that was domed sinks down (quite a lot), but if that also happens to yours before you feed it, then I'm not worried.
If quintupling is going to happen, that will really be amazing!
Keep you posted...
L_M
Each day it got faster but still only made it to triple, but today....it took only about 4 1/2 hours to triple, and now at 7 hours the top of the dome is at quintuple and still looks very smooth. The only change I made today was that I wanted to clean out the other container so I put it in a different one that is much wider, so maybe there is a connection between the shape of the container and the higher rise, and maybe it was just the right time for it to take off... probably I'll experiment in a narrow container sometime again.
Now I feel that I've joined in the world of sourdough. I don't know why it hasn't worked until now, but I've been trying to get a really active starter going for such a long time.
Now for the fun part - which is your favourite recipe, and do you make any adjustments?
I still can't believe that it has passed the golden standard rule!
L_M
Wow, L_M, that is fabulous! See, it simply takes a bit of patience. You must have quite an active group of microorganisms built up if it is already quintupling. That’s awesome.
I think Bill mentioned that he noticed an improvement as well when he changed containers. I can’t answer how that may impact it though.
The other thing I was going to mention (which now doesn't sound like you need to know) is how I mix the starter and use a small whisk (which I outlined in detail on bwraith’s blog about starter maintenance) to beat the starter and water mixture into a foam. It almost gets to the soft peak stage and I think that really helps to keep those little boogers active in the culture.
Now, about my favorite recipes. There are so many but the first four that come to mind are Thom Leonard boule (I’m baking that recipe today), Essential’s Columbia, Vermont Sourdough, and quickly becoming my weekly standard sourdough is bwraith’s Sourdough Pagnotta. I just love the texture of that bread and the flavor is outstanding. I play around with the ingredients to sometimes add a bit more WW or rye and I also have taken to forming 3 batards instead of the rounds because I think it is easier to use for toast.
Bill’s Sourdough Pagnotta:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2961/sourdough-pagnotta
While some recipes call for a very large amount of starter I generally like to use a small amount because it really isn’t necessary to use a lot of this starter. I have used larger amounts though, to humor Bill (hehe), and it really makes no difference to me in the taste of the bread.
I do like to make the overnight levains so if a recipe calls for a 100% hydration starter I refresh mine by a formula of 16:44:40 in the amount that will give me the total weight of starter for a particular recipe. Other times I just use a formula that has worked well such as the levain for the Thom Leonard boules. I don’t get too technical if I can help it and I’ve pretty much decided that as long as you can judge the consistency of your dough and you know you have enough starter to raise your bread and that you add enough salt to compensate for any extra flour added in a firm starter you are good to go.
I've even made a wonderful sourdough ciabatta in one day that was fabulous just by tossing stuff together. If I remember that correctly I started about 1:00 pm and had ciabatta and a couple hamburger buns from the dough by dinner time. As I recall I was out of fresh bread and could not stand not having more that day so I did the quick version...hehe. That firm starter is so active and so flavorful it has made my breads taste delicious. I hope you have the same luck with yours as I have with mine.
I keep telling myself I will get around to making the other breads, truly I do! But we just love that darned bread so much that it has become our weekly bread! I do still make "incidentals" like sourdough English muffins, sourdough pancakes, sourdough pita bread (TDF), and sourdough pizza and just recently thanks to browndog, I made crumpets for the first time evah!
But for bread, I'm stuck in a bread rut and the pagnotta either plain or with different add ins is phenomenally awesome and easy!
Congrats on your new babies L_M!!!!!! Have fun!!!
First, BZ, I totally agree with you on the pagnotta. I keep making versions of it using a bit more rye and WW and it is so fabulous every single time. I don't even mind that it is not an open-crumb bread. It is simply the most creamy and wonderful crumb with fabulous flavor. Sounds crazy, I know, but I really love that bread. And even though I learned on high hydration doughs and love them I do reduce the water a bit.
I'm baking Vermont Sourdough again today for a change and baked a wonderful Thom Leonard recipe using Golden Buffalo and it was to die for! Anyway, I must know what pita recipe you made. I've been looking at recipes in Glezer's Blessing of Bread book for sourdough pita. What is yours? Sounds like you have been doing some wonderful baking!
Yes I really am very happy that I've finally got it a starter with happy critters. The first step I do is to dissolve and fluff up the the starter with the water just the same way as you have mentioned Zolablue, and I do that as well with my 100% hydration starters - I'm always amazed at how fluffy it gets with a whisk.
Thanks for the recipe suggestions, and the conversion ratio for a 100% hydration starter will come in very handy since I'm always playing around with recipes! Yesterday I was very busy so the only time I got into the kitchen to start the dough was at 12:00 last night. I mixed together a 1/2 batch of Sourdough-guy's one step method dough, and I just had to guess how much of this starter to use, since it is now very active, and taking into account the heat - sometimes with and sometime without AC on... I ended up using 6 grams of starter (for almost 500 grams flour) and luckily it worked out in perfect timing, 15 hours from mix to bake. I haven't tasted it yet but it looks very good. So far I have stayed away from including WW and WR flour because I understand that it can emphasize the sourness in bread (and I was getting so much of it with only white flour), so now I will be able to experiment freely.
I still find it hard to believe that the starter rises so quickly - now I can finally relax and enjoy it instead of wondering all the time how to get it moving!
L_M
I have to credit Bill with giving me that ratio. You know I'm not a math head and always whining about it. :o) I am happy to experiment and put in the amount I wish and adjust the water based on how I want the dough to feel. That's not scientific but it works.
I'm anxious to hear how your loaf tasted. I sure hope you can get the flavors you're looking for. I don't know how much the starter contributes to that but at least you will have a way to compare how one works against the other.
Oh, just a note, I have never noticed whole grains adding to the sourness of my bread. The only time I did notice a terrible sourness (in fact, I tossed it all to the birdies) was my first attempt at 100% WW sourdough but I realize now I let that dough WAY overproof in bulk and then WAY overproof in the shaped loaves. Uck - bad bread! I swore I would never make it again.
But l mentioned above I just bought the special high extraction WW Golden Buffalo flour from Hearland Mill in Kansas which I believe is the exact flour Thom Leonard now uses for this bread in his bakery and it was fabulous. I have learned to not let things ferment so long and that is making a heap of difference in the look of my loaves. It is just scary to try something vastly different but you have to make yourself or you'll never know.
...for me, a much better and happier starter. I have to say this even though its probably going to sound like I'm schizo for going back and forth but how can we learn without at least experimenting.
I have gone back to using 15 grams starter for my maintenance and I'm going to stick with this for the duration. I have made about 3 serious attempts at taking my starter down to using 10 grams for maintenance but that has simply not proved as predictable for me. Once I did this again a few days ago, it was fine at first but then slowly started decreasing in strength to the point where I was very worried I had really screwed up my starter. And I love my starter.
So I decided it simply is not worth it for me. It is much better to be smarter for my starter; considering my flour and environment to feed it at 15g starter:30g water:50g flour and it will remain strong and very active and I can predict extremely well its behavior both in the qualities necessary for the starter itself and for the doughs I'm baking.
Just wanted to pass this info along to others who might read this. Don't worry about competing in any way with regards to what works for your own starter and do what serves it and you and your bread the best. :o)
I appreciate that but it reminds me I have a ton of photos to get on that site. I have just been dragging my feet because of the time it takes. Ugh. (lol)
So sorry about that - don't want you to think I was ignoring you!!!
The flavour of the loaf was excellent - even a few days later (toasted) it wasn't too sour, so now I'm very pleased with the results.
I have to go now, but I'll continue tomorrow...
L_M
Zolablue that is really interesting that your starter is so set in it's ways - got a mind of it's own!
So far I've been very lucky with mine and now since it has passed it's golden test, I keep it in the fridge unless I think I'll use it within a day or so. The last time it was in the fridge for 5 days and then I just refreshed as usual - 10: 30: 50 ( actually I use only half that amount to maintain so it really is 5:15:25) and it performed beautifully - quadruple in 6 hours and quintuple (the very top of the dome) in 7 hours, then stayed there for another hour or 2 and slowly started to shrink but was still domed. At that time I either use some - but don't feed the rest of it yet - it or put it all in the fridge again, so it seems like it is happy with that sort of pattern. I hope this is ok because none of this as been going on for a really long period of time yet.
As for the wwflour giving a sour taste - this is just what I've read and not from personal experience, so I was steering clear of it until I was sure my starter was in great shape. As a matter of fact the loaf I made was Pain au levain from "Bread" , and I decided to start with that one because of the footnote saying how mild it was, and it does call for some rye flour but the only rye flour available here is whole rye. The bread was the mildest sourdough I've made yet, (and very good) so I'll increase the amount of whole grains as I go along.
A few days ago my oven went on strike - I think I over did it with the steam... until the repairman comes on Sunday I won't be able to bake anything, and now I realize how much I enjoy and miss it!
KipperCat, I don't think I'd be able to manage working with such a small amount of starter without a scale that measures per 1 gram.
L_M
L_M! That is awesome! Aren't you happy to now have a great, strong starter that is so darn easy to maintain? Great to hear and just keep doing what you are doing because it is obviously responding very well.
Interestingly, I notice more of a difference in flour types now that I'm baking more WW breads. I guess I should say I think that is what I'm noticing, having just purchased some new wheat flours, but it also could just be the recipes and the proofing times. If WW gets anywhere close to overproofing it definately makes more sour bread. I have recently made both Hamelman miche recipes and have decided I won't repeat either of them. As a contrast I just made the Thom Leonard boules (which I make often) but this time with the Heartland Mill Golden Buffalo and, man, they were superb in every way. After baking yesterday in this terrible heat I decided why bake something else that just simply isn't going to be as good but I am glad I tried them so I know. It is getting hotter here by the day and I think I'm putting baking on hold for a few as well. It is going to be hard because I have the new Leader book and I'm dying to make some of his recipes.
Kippercat, I agree I could not do without my scales. I found two wonderful Escali scales; one for my general baking and the other is an Escali pocket scale so I can weigh even the tiniest amounts of yeast and salt. They are both very inexpensive but very accurate scales. I have a 50g weight that comes with the pocket scale to test their accuracy which is really nice.
So I was able to convert my batter type starter to a firm starter and did get down to the 10-30-50 ratio. It did great and I made some great bread with it but how often do I need to refresh it?(my batter starter takes a massive amount of neglect) I also assume that normal storage in the old fridge is appropriate. Any info is appreciated.
steve
I think it sounds like you're doing the right thing which is watch your own starter and go by how it reacts to how you are feeding it. That's how I have been able to learn what works with mine.
Browndog is right, if you can slog your way through this thread you'll find all the information has been posted about what some of us do. Browndog is sweet but I'm not really expert on this starter at all. It is just the method I chose. After searching this site and spending hours reading sourdough threads I could not find a single post about a firm starter. I did find a lot of conflicting information about batter starters and only became more confused. I was such a novice then (still am) I just had to make a decision and I loved the info in the Glezer book and decided the firm starter made a lot of sense for the breads I wished to begin with. Little did I know this would turn out to be an incredible solution so I'm glad I trusted Glezer and made this recipe.
Good luck! It is so much fun to bake sourdough.
Good luck getting that firm starter going again Mini Oven - if it works then for sure I'm going to freeze some of mine as emergency back up. I still have no idea why this is the only starter I could get into a healthy state - all the other liquid ones never had enough strength or speed. Both the flour and water are the same so it I'm now totally convinced that even though I tried everything I could think of, in the end I was still either over or under feeding them, and therefore I couldn't get the right balance of critters. Anyhow I'm sticking with this firm one!
Zolablue since you love the Thom Leonard recipe so much, I'm going to give it a try. Mind you it may be quite different than yours since I'll be using local flour. If I remember correctly, somewhere someone mentioned that the original recipe calls for 30 grams of stiff starter and not 45 grams liquid as posted in mountaindog's personal notes - hope that's right. Just out of curiousity, did you mix with a mixer or by hand? I'll try to pay special attention not to overproof.
I think the only thing that may drive me crazy with this firm starter is figuring out how much of it to use in place of a liquid starter, since it seems to be more potent. I like to start a recipe at night and in the morning make the dough, but with this heat I think it's best to build up with the firm one (because it can last longer), even if the recipe calls for a liquid one. Hopefully after a few tries I'll get into the rythum.
L_M
L_M - Do you have the recipe as written in ABAA? It calls for 25g firm starter mixed with 140g water and 140g flour the night before. If you don't have the recipe I can give you the info - not sure if it is posted exactly on the site.
I love my stand mixer and would not be without it. I have done some breads by hand and I love to feel the dough but many recipes, and this is one, that is a bear to do by hand. I did it once - omg! It is a lot of dough.
I don't think it is critical converting a recipe using this starter. That's another reason I like it so much. I just pretend it is like commercial yeast because it is so predictable you can really learn to time risings. I pay more attention to the look of the dough when I'm deciding how much water to put in. I guess that is not the proper way - not to figure accurate percentages - but that has always worked well for me. Once you have an established firm starter and start baking with it you'll see what I'm talking about.
Hi Zolablue, the only recipe I have is from this site so thanks for letting me know and I've now made a note about the different amounts as you have mentioned above - is there anything else?
I made it once (using only 1/4 of the recipe for my first try) and the flavour was very nice but I still have some things to work on with the texture...at least now I'm not afraid that I have to get everything done quickly before it gets too sour - it doesn't - the flavour is mild (even with the ww and w rye flour) and I'm so happy about that because it was my main concern all along. I'm not sure whether I slightly overproofed on the final rise - in some places it looked like it was starting to rip - or it was because the flour is weak, but it sort of sighed when I slashed even though it felt like it was at the same stage as it usually does. Next time I'm going to add a bit of gluten because the stongest flour here has 11% protein, and although it works and gives a nice rise and delicate crumb for yeasted dough and also for sourdough with all white flour, I think the addition of the whole grain flours may have been just a bit too much for it to support.
I see what you mean about using it like yeast, but I still have trouble believing it's actually going to work so I'm still a bit too uptight about it all - trying to work out the timing for all of the recipes, and then of course the math... I would love to just calm down and I'm sure that after a few good loaves I'll take a deep breath and start to enjoy the magic.
L_M
I have also made some modifications just as Mountaindog did so successfully. I think that's another reason I like that recipe so much - no matter how you make it the bread is wonderful. I absolutely loved the bread making it with the proper high-extraction flour - so wonderful and big puffy boules. I did not photo those but will next time I make them.
I did type up the entire recipe as written from the book yesterday and maybe I should post that in a blog so we can keep this on the starter. (I take it you don't have the book?)
I'm so happy for you that you have made some mild tasting bread. Wow, that's really super. I will say that if your dough looked like it was starting to rip, in my short experience, that is overproofing. I found out much the same way (finally) quite by accident and it was due to my starter being stronger so I was waiting too long. I also had the same thing happen when slashing and my loaves would spread out and take a big sigh. :o) I thought my slashing was the problem but then realized it was more about overproofing. I find the poke test tells me more and once I started putting loaves in the oven sooner I had better looking bread.
that my thawed out firm starter just lies there. It's been a few days, it is now a liquid but neither smells like anything or trying to pop my ziplock. The mixture was 25g starter, 50 g water and 125g flour, frozen (-18°c) after 3 days in the refrigerator. It does have bubbles but not active ones. No signs of separation, contamination or mold. Time to thaw out another one and find my notes on it.
Dug them all out of the freezer. Found some frozen grapes too, munch on 'em while thinking...
Let's see, the stuff was ripe... maybe, so therefore no growth. The "no smell" is beginning to get to me... one would think it would really be ripe and stinky by now... just dissolved a teaspoon of the starter (and it has the same consistancy of a ripe starter) in 100g water and add 100g flour. Update late tonight ... or whenever.... does freezing kill the stink beasties? (I can see spock raising an eyebrow.) --Mini
So now that you have this commune of yeasties growing and ranting, raise some of Bills Ciabatta or some other holey concoction. What's the deal with the egg white?
Eric
Glad to hear that something is happening. So was this latest concoction just from one feeding? Does it look like it still needs a bit of refreshing before actually making bread? These firm starters seem to made out of strong stuff! Good luck with using up what you've got so far - if you put it in the fridge you can just take your time and add some of it to everything you bake.
Frozen grapes...sounds lie a nice snack!
L_M
OK. I froze my firm starter because I was leaving my husband alone with the fridge for 2 months and thought it might get thrown out. I had to find my notes on this stuff and glad everything got written down under the forum topic: Firm starter 5° back in April. Now I know why there's no smell. Eric, you and I are growing too much calcium in the brain... Now how do I make a link?
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2714/firm-starter-5
or Here
if you could post the recipe and your modifications since I don't have that book.
I made the Pain au levain again and this time cut down on the time of the final proof and the result was better. I always use the poke test and that's why I was surprised that the dough looked ripped the last time - the poke was still ok, but obviously it was too long for that dough, and I imagine it probably would have been better not to slash at all.
I'm repeatedly getting good flavour from this starter now, but I'm still not happy with the texture of the bread. It isn't dense, but my yeasted breads of the same type are lighter. I found the posts Mariana made about this subject (in the thread about SAF yeast) very interesting and I'm wondering if waiting so long before feeding the starter after it collapses, (and also I have let the starter for the bread collapse and wait a bit before starting to make the dough with it) isn't contributing to weakness of the dough at oven time...it sounds very logical to me I'd like to give her method a try so I can compare.
L_M
L_M, I have used my starter at all various times and never has it posed a problem. I think sourdough bread is just a different texture. The lightest, creamiest crumb I've made with sourdough so far is the pagnotta. I have made a few adjustments that I prefer which includes using 75g WW and 90g rye with the bread and AP flours. Then I have cut the water down as well and the result is wonderful.
I'm not familiar with the recipe you're using but that would be more the culprit of the texture of your bread and not the starter, as far as I know. Again, sourdough requires a bit more patience and observation than yeast breads, at least for me so far.
I have been so busy this weekend I didn't get the recipe posted. I'll get it done today.