My "70% problem"

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LoafRabbit on 3 Mar 2025 at 00:23

I have a problem with "high" hydration sourdough and I have been unable to crack it by myself. So I turn to you all for assistance - what could I possibly be doing wrong?

 

I am a British baker and my 70% hydration loaves cannot stand up to baking. I have been baking sourdough since 2016 and it is a perennial problem I have been unable to crack for 9 years now! 70% hydration loaves do not have that lovely, high rise and rounded structure. 350g water per 500g flour seems to be the standard prescription in many UK recipes (Elaine Boddy's, for example) and they have no problem. I do, so what could it be? The past two days I have tried the following:

 

280g Matthews Churchill strong white flour (12.8% protein)

120g Duchy Organic strong wholemeal flour (14.4% protein)

280g water

40g starter (100% hydration, made of the same wholemeal flour)

8g salt (2%)

 

I have also tried it with 80g starter

 

30min fermentolyse

add salt

2mins in stand mixer (ProCook, speed 2)

10min rest

Another 2mins in stand mixer

 

Bulk ferment at 24C (in a proofer) until 70% rise and 100% rise (the latter being for the 80g starter). 50% rise has given me large holes in the crumb, suggesting uunder-fermentation. Shape, into a banneton and then into the fridge for 12-14hrs. Both results have been mostly flat and pretty bad for sandwiches - my primary use for the bread!

 

There are two reasons I want to crack this. Firstly, it kind of feels like something "everyone else" can do but I can't - and should be able to do. Secondly, whenever I have managed to (in a complete fluke) bake a 70% hydration loaf - which I did a couple of weeks ago; different method which oddly worked - I really enjoy the crumb structure and softness.

 

So, I have theories, but perhaps the experts here can also offer assistance?

 

  1. it is the % of wholemeal I am trying to use - they say wholemeal requires more water, so I didn't think this would be the case. But perhaps the bran is affecting it? The fluke bread I mentioned above was a 100% white loaf (with the same white flour)
  2. It's the long fridge proof - the fluke I mentioned above had its final proof back in the proofer and was baked on the same day
  3. it's something else - the recipe books I have picked up from Elaine Boddy all suggest fridge proof and 70% as the general method.

 

Any ideas? I am at a loss! Thanks in advance.I'll procure a few photos of the latest loaf once it has cooled and been cut.

questions you may need to ask yourself:

  1. how acidic your levain to begin with? Dough made with levain too acidic will be stickier, less elastic, and final product becomes squat. Try techniques that reduce acidity, like multiple levain feeding schedule, low temperature fermentation, low levain hydration
  2. Was your oven floor hot enough or upper burner too hot? Was your steaming robust enough? Upper burner too hot will get rid of steam too fast, crust set too soon, hinders oven spring
  3. Have you tried doing room temperature final proof, judging doneness only with poke test instead?
  4. Have you tried achieving windowpane test? Judging from the mixing time, seems too brief. Try doing it just for the sake of doing it, see whether it works better to increase height. If crumb aesthetic is the concern, some french bakers do windowpane test and managed to get open crumb. Some even do 65% hydration
  5. Was your final shaping tight enough?
  6. Have you try putting all the whole meal in the levain? Putting the whole meal in the levain will allow the bran to have more time to soak water and soften up, so it won't tear the gluten network as much
  7. Have you tried cold bulk instead of cold proof? Cold bulk also buys time to soak the bran, and still a room to do stretch and fold. Whereas cold proof is final

Hope it helps

Jay

  1. I am not sure how to measure the acidity
  2. I bake in a Dutch oven and I have also had this issue in a completely different oven in the past, so that shouldn't be the issue.
  3. I have and that is one to try for sure. The fluke loaf I speak about above was done in one day, so final proof was indeed at room temperature and judged by poking!
  4. I have and it looks decent. But perhaps I am doing it wrong? Should I be able ot stretch it quite far?
  5. I certainly think so. A nice, taut ball.
  6. No, as I'm not sure how the proportions would add up mathematically to equal the same loaf!
  7. I haven't ever done cold bulk; I sometimes have trouble with the fermentation seeming quite slow even at room temperature, so I am definitely hesitant to make it any colder!

I am starting to wonder if I should go all the way to the most basic white loaf to try and figure this all out. I didn't a proportion of wholemeal was too much of a stretch beyond the basics, but maybe it will allow me to figure out the sticking point.

I am not sure how to measure the acidity

You most likely don't need to.  But you could try to change it by altering a few things as an experiment:

  • The longer the fermentation goes on, the more acidic the dough or starter will get.
  • If the pH gets too low, it can start to inhibit yeast and attack protein.
  • Compared with white flour, bran and whole grain flours can hold more total acidity, much like a sponge can hold more water than a plate.

When you mix starter with flour, the pH rises quite a lot (compared with the pH of the starter itself).  Then it starts to decline as fermentation gets going. (If you use yeast or a yeasted biga instead of sourdough, you won't ever get to low acidities). So if you suspect that low acidity might be a problem, decrease your fermentation time(s) and see if that seems to help. This would also apply to long stays in the refrigerator since some fermentation continues at a low rate.

From my experience with my sourdough I have found that it doesn't deal well with warmth. Tends to prefer cool fermentation conditions (around 20C in my case). I would give it a try without the proofer for BF and see if that helps. 

That could be interesting in the summer! The fluke mentioned above was done at at least 25C maybe even 27C (I wish I could remember!) but it's worth a go.

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mwilson on 3 Mar 2025 at 03:21

How is your starter maintained and what steps do you take to prepare it for use in this recipe? Times, temps and feed ratios?

For these types of flours, I would probably use a higher dose of starter than that specified in the recipe.

I would also mix the dough more, but's that me and I do things very differently from most.

I second all of the points made by Jay above.

Starter is fed when required (several times a week) at a high ratio - not normally measured but usually about 1:5:5 to 1:3:3. I keep it at room temperature - about 21C at the moment - and use when doubled in volume.

At that temperature, I probably wouldn't feed it more than 2 parts flour to 1 part starter if I wanted it to be ready in good time and be strong enough to leaven a dough on the softer side of things. How long does your starter ferment before using it?

I think it would be fair to say that your starter needs work. Nearly all SD issues stem from the starter.

I don't see anything really wrong with the crumb in this picture, except for a few areas that didn't seem to bond to each other. That would suggest looking at the shaping technique. A flatter than expected loaf that is otherwise fine also suggests the shaping technique could use some tuning up.

If you want an open but finer crumb structure than this, most likely you need to ferment longer, especially in the bulk fermentation stage. How long?  If you were going to an increase in volume of 2X, go for 2.5X - 3x. We will hope that your flour can stand up to those longer times.  Good US flours won't have any trouble; yours will most likely be OK. If you put the shaped loaf into the refrigerator right after shaping, that would likely cause underfermenting of the loaf.  It would do better fermented at room temperature until about an hour before it would be ready to bake.

You didn't say if your loaf spreads a lot when it comes out of the banneton.  If it does, then it could be that the dough needs a slightly lower hydration.  More likely it would show that your shaping technique isn't supporting the loaf well enough. One thing that would help is stretching the dough more during shaping to make it more elastic. That would also tend to produce smaller pores.

I would also suggest retarding the bulk ferment and not the final proof.  I think it's easier to feel the dough during shaping, and easier to get a good baked loaf, that way. Once you've able to get a satisfactory loaf, you can start retarding the shaped loaf too. Of course, your schedule may not allow time for this.

TomP

I was hopeful for this loaf because it didn't spread overmuch when it came out of the banneton. Perhaps a little creep, but it wasn't like warm, wet dough and it was certainly less than the room temperature final proof loaf I mentioned above. 

 

For the loaf in the photo, I went to 2x (100%) volume increase in bulk. I normally do 50% but I started recently leaving it longer because of the larger and more uneven holes I started noticing. I have come across different guides recommending 50%, 100% and even 200% volume increases, so it's really hard to know where to stop!

 

It's just so strange that I can make a nice loaf at 65% using the methods detailed in British-based recipe books (taking 5% off the hydration of course), but when I scale up to the same amount of water, it doesn't hold up. By all accounts you're right; my British flour should hold up fine to 70% hydration. Though I did just skim over the basic recipe which says fridge proof "minimum of 3 hrs, maximum of 10" and I wonder if it's over-fermenting in the fridge as I typically leave it 12 hours. I have a few more factors to modify, but I'm writing them all down now!

the basic recipe which says fridge proof "minimum of 3 hrs, maximum of 10"

I don't think that many recipe instructions like this are well-founded.  How many of us do enough well-controlled tests to really know about details like this?  And even if they did, the results will depend on a myriad of things that are specific to that one baker and their kitchen environment.

I'm unclear if you have been including the water and flour from the starter in your hydration calculations. OTOH, I wouldn't worry too much about the exact hydration calculation, such as 70%.  If you get good results at say 67% or 65%, then that's what you should use. It only means that with your flour, kitchen temperatures, handling techniques, etc, the lower hydration works better.  Even the mineral levels in the water could make a real difference.

If you want to go to an extreme, look up glass bread and try to make it.  You will learn a lot about how to handle difficult, wet dough.  Afterwards, working with your 70% hydration doughs will seem far easier!

TomP

 

Have you tried a test loaf with instant yeast? 

My thinking is that you may have a particularly acidic starter. 

If a test loaf made with instant yeast at that hydration turns out well, then it would prove there is a definitive starter issue, and we could then also rule out other potential issues such as how the oven heat hits the bread etc!

-Jon

Including the starter components, the formula has 280 + 120 + 20 = 420 grams of flour.  It also has 280 + 20 = 300 grams of water.  300 /  420 = 0.714 or 71.4% hydration.  Not a lot more than 70% but more, nevertheless. 

If you reduced the water to 290 grams, the hydration would be 69%.  While that's a bit shy of your targeted 70% hydration, you might want to give it a try.  If the results are favorable, yay!  If not, make another adjustment and try again.  You'll eventually get to a bread that you enjoy, which is the real objective.

Best of luck.

Paul

Check your starter (although that is relative). If everything is good - your bread should be good. I would look at the starter. Enjoy!