Hi!
I recently made the "Lifted" Country Boule from Ginsberg's "The Rye Baker". I was intrigued by it because it promised a fully realized rye loaf in about 6 hours; pre-ferment included. It achieves this by the use of "Berliner Kurzsauer" or "Berlin Quick Sponge" that ferments for 3-4 hours at 95 F. In order to achieve this temperature I calculated the water temperature by using the DDT method from Hamelman. This method has served me well. However, in this case, after I mixed the ingredients the temperature was almost 10 F higher, at 104 F. Since I use 5 F as "friction factor" (FF) if I mix by hand as in this case, should I just make that 15 F next time? But I'm worried that I might overshoot it in the other direction (undershoot it?) as I find it quicker to cool the dough than to warm it up but ideally would want to be on target. Another thing was that the calculated water temperature was 160 F! I usually disperse the sourdough starter in the water but this was a high temperature and I didn't want to kill the microbes so I mixed the flour and water first. But then I realized it might be high enough to gelatinize the flour and I don't know if that's intended or beneficial for this method? In any case I added the starter after that and went on with the rest of the recipe. I must report the bread came out very good but am am unsure if I achieved the intended result. Neither Ginsberg nor homebaking.at (which seems to be the source of the recipe) discuss how to achieve that temperature and possible pitfalls and none of my questions are addressed in the recipe. They only mention that maintaining that 95 F temperature is imperative for the sponge to develop properly. Did anyone make this bread? Or used this sponge and can offer any insights or observations?
Hi bitcat70,
I just did a quick review of the recipe and the Rye Sponge calls for you to use a water temperature 105F/41C in the initial mixing and then bring the sponge up to a sustained temperature of 95F/35C for 3.5-4 hours. To do that you'd need a proofer, an oven (that goes to 95F/35C) or maybe an Instapot/slow cooker. I don't own an Instapot/slow cooker so maybe someone who does can advise.
I use the Brod & Taylor proofer that has a proof mode (70 -120 °F / 21 - 49 °C) and slow cook mode (85-195 °F / 30-90 °C in 5 degree increments).
The DDT formula really just gets you to a dough temperature at the end of your mix, after that the DT will change based on your room temperature.
Tony
Hi,
DDT in Hamelman's book for professional bakers is just the initial dough temperature at the beginning of the fermentation process. It later increases 1-1.5C per each hour as the dough ferments because microbes release some heat as the dough ferments in large vats in bakeries and it retains that heat inside the large batch. So, if DDT is indicated to be 35C, it would end up being 39-41C at the end of Berliner Kurzsauer Fermentation in a bakery. Beware of that if you want to replicate that method and that bread.
At home, you would have to ensure those temperatures for your small batch of the quick sponge. Otherwise, you would have to extend the fermentation time significantly to achieve the same target acidity, taste and aroma.
Tony gave you a few ideas about how to achieve the controlled fermentation temperature. I used to rely on a simple heating pad for the same purpose. It works very well. My oven has Proof setting which maintains the appropriate temp for rye Kurzsauers as well, but these days I mostly ferment them inside my programmable bread machine.
Dietmar at homebaking.at does not indicate DDT at all. His flour is room T, his water is most likely cold from the faucet and there is no DDT requirement, only fermentation T. It's because his batch of Kurzsauer is so small and it heats up inside the proofing chamber quickly and stays warm in a warm place.
I was wondering if that would be the case given the size of dough they handle. Good to know! However, I can't say that's something I noticed in my home baking. My first encounter with DDT was many years ago thanks to Hamelman's book and it helped me a lot. I'm able to achieve the DDT in his recipes to within a degree F and keep it there for the duration of the bulk/proof. At least for wheat loaves. Maybe I can raise it to mimic what you described but I don't know if it would be beneficial for my home baking. As for the proofer I've been using a Brod &Taylor box for a long time. It's not super accurate and can't be calibrated but it's the only one of its kind and I found ways to make it work.
Re: DDT: I found this recipe at homebaking.at and it looks like it's where Ginsberg may have gotten it from. "DT" is specified for both the sourdough (35 C) and final (main) dough (30-32 C). I read it as "desired temperature" or maybe "dough temperature" (?) since it doesn't have explanation. Am I wrong assuming that? But that's an aside.
It seems imperative (he uses a lot of exclamation marks) to maintain the correct temperature from the beginning to the end of the sourdough phase of this bake. And he warns that for every degree C below that to add 15 minutes for the sourdough phase so it should be closely monitored. Seems pretty important and that's why I wanted to find more information about it. I'm not sure why I overshot it by 10 F. My main goal was to get it as close to DT as possible from the beginning to avoid heating/cooling that would unnecessarily prolong this phase as the name of the game here is "kurz" or "short". And there is no guidance on what to do if the DT is overshot. Refrigerator, I guess? I'm not sure about a freezer in such a case.
In any case, I made it again, but this time I scaled it to 1300g to fit in a 9x4x4 Pullman pan but I think I'll scale it to 1100-1200 next time as it came out a little tall. I adjusted my temperature calculations following my previous experience by increasing the friction factor so the water didn't have to be so hot. It was also a warmer day so air and flour temps were closer to DT further lowering the temp of the water addition. I came much closer to the 95 F DT for the sourdough phase this time. Here's what it looked like before being loaded into the oven:
It did get quite a bit of oven spring to lift it past the sides of the pan. It tastes good but is somewhat different than the free form loaf from the previous bake. This one came out more moist. Definitely a great way to achieve a fine rye loaf in a (relatively) short amount of time. Will bake again! Free-form or panned? That is the question. I guess whatever the mood strikes.
Having done this, I'm thinking even more about smaller pans just for test bakes. I asked about suggestions for those, but maybe you would also have some recommendations for 4x4x4 Pullman pan as there are a lot of offers on Amazon but I have no idea which ones are worth it?
If I recall it correctly, in Advanced Bread and Pastry book they say that if your batch is less than 2 kg, start adding fermentation time to compensate for the lack of self heating in your dough, about 15 min per each hour prescribed in the recipe. I.e. if the recipe tells you to bulk ferment it for 4 hrs at 95F, then ferment it for one hour longer, for 5 hrs.
- what to do if the DT is overshot
In rye baking, nothing. Higher temperatures are beneficial for rye sourdoughs. In wheat baking, chill it before kneading it and or fermenting it, to protect gluten; refrigerator or freezer, both work.
As for 4*4*4"pans, I prefer smooth sides. Non stick or plain aluminum as in Fat Daddio's
Thank you for sharing it. I'll apply it next time to the bulk phase.
Also thanks for the links to the pans. Would the aluminum one be safe to use for sourdough rye considering its acidity?
In my searches I chanced upon an older post of yours where you linked to CANDeal Loaf Pan. Are those still OK as well?
One thing that caught my eye on some of these pans is the hole in the bottom which none of my pans have. I've never seen that before and I'm curious. Do you know the reason for that?
CANDeal or Chefmade are dealers, Amazon sellers, they do not make those pans. So, yes CANDeal is still ok if you like their price.
Aluminum pans are OK. They are even traditional in rye bread baking. Proofing ryes before baking takes only 25-30min or so and the pans are greased anyways. I've seen no damage to my Fat Daddio's pans over time whatsoever.
The hole is a mystery to me. Only Chiinese pans have them. They are unsightly and have nothing to do with bread(or cake) baking, more with the pan manufacturing process. I do not buy such pans because they require lining them with parchment to prevent leakage of rye dough or cake batter.
Aesthetically, I prefer Japanese pans, they also perform very well, but they are more expensive. I mean this type of construction, not the specific model that I linked which is a bit roomier that a 4*4*4" , it is 4.7*4.7*.4.7".
Thank you for bearing with me and answering my questions!