Over the past year or so, I've been having issues mixing panettone dough . After a lot of research and talking to a few different people. I've concluded that my LM is not healthy. If I am reading the signs correctly, it's too weak.
After feeding and leaving at 30C for 3-4 hours, the LM doubles but does not quite triple. A cross-section of the LM after fermentation shows very tiny alveoli. The starter tastes mild and fruity, but there's really not much acidity to it and the pH seems stuck in the 4.4 - 4.55 range after fermentation. If I understand correctly, after about 12 hours bound at 16-19C, the starter should register a pH of 3.8-3.9, yet mine is still sitting in the 4.4 - 4.5 range.
The issue I'm having now is correcting the balance of microorganisms in the dough, and while there seems to be a lot of information out there on how to create and maintain a LM, there's surprisingly little information on what to do when something goes wrong.
I initially created this LM maybe 1.5 years ago from my 100% sourdough starter and I suspect that something went wrong with this process as my LM has never really behaved correctly. The typical schedule for my starter is to refresh 1/1/0.5 and leave for 3-4 hours at 30 C. I'll do this 2 or 3 times in a day, after which I will bind it and put it in the refrigerator for about a week. If I'm going to bake with it, I'll take it out of the fridge about 3 days before and begin the typical cycle of 3 short warm refreshments followed by 1 long cold one. The starter is maintained exclusively with KA Sir Lancelot flour.
I've been doing things a bit differently lately in order to try and correct the issues I've noticed. I've been taking some suggestions from https://www.dissapore.com/ricette/lievito-madre-di-iginio-massari/ and https://biancolievito.com/how-to-fix-your-sourdough/ on how to strengthen a weak LM.
Over the past week I have been tracking refreshments and have gathered some interesting (and frustrating) data points:
- I have done many 1/0.8 refreshments (starter/flour) at 45% - 50% hydration per Massari's recommendation, yet the starter still seems weak and is not acidifying below 4.4, even after as much as 5 hours at 30 C.
- I have done 2 rather lengthy "long" refreshments. One of these was a submerged refreshment with 19C water left at room temp (about 71F) for 17.5 hours, the other was a bound refreshment at 17-19C for about 35 hours. Both of these resulted in some decent acidification down to about 4.1-4.2. I followed both of these up with 1/0.8 warm refreshments which, in both cases, brought the pH right back up to about 4.4 after 3.5 hours.
- I'm tracking the difference in pH before and after fermentation. The two very long refreshments I mentioned acidified the most, resulting in a pH change of about 0.8 - 0.9. The refreshments immediately following these long ones, however, resulted in the least acidification of all 15 or so refreshments I've tracked so far, decreasing the pH by only 0.29 (oddly, exactly 0.29 in both cases)
- I've tried a longer warm refreshment where I mixed and laminated the dough, rolled it in a ball, and left it at 28C for about 9.5 hours (neither bound nor in water). This only acidified down to about 4.38 and was right back to about 4.5 after the subsequent 3.5 hour warm refreshment
- Out of desperation, I've begun using bottled water instead of filtered tap water. This hasn't seemed to make any difference at all
I'm tempted to create a new LM either from my 100% starter once again, or perhaps from scratch, but I really want to figure this out. If I were to create a new starter that behaved perfectly, I feel I will have lost out on what seems like a valuable learning experience. I am kind of running out of ideas though, which is the purpose of this post.
At this point, I feel like I could leave my LM out in the yard for a week and still effortlessly bring it back to 4.4 pH 🤣. I thought maybe my LM is just happy at 4.4 - 4.5, but given all of my issues mixing panettone dough, I do think it's an issue.
I agree with your analysis. You will know when your LM improves, as it will handle differently (Michael pointed this out earlier), the texture will be smoother. It shouldn't have vinegary notes (!!)....
However IMO this is an important point: it does not have to be pH > 5.0 after 1st impasto fermentation. I personally have only had one over 4.85, and I have been making consistently very good panettone for the last year (texture, flavor, shreddability, keeping characteristics etc). Several very reputable panettone people who also teach, have pointed this out. It is true that getting the pH up over 4.7 will produce a better crumb. But plenty of people who claim to have pH > 5.0 are producing quite unattractive panettone for other reasons related to their process.
Well, my LM doesn't have vinegary notes. In fact, if it weren't for this primo acidification issue, I'd guess my LM was actually in pretty good shape 😅. It seems to hit all of the right benchmarks - triples, pH 3.8 - 3.9 after maintenance, pH 4.1 - 4.2 after refreshments, nice open alveoli after maintenance, no off tastes or smells, good crust after maintenance (even after refreshments for that matter), floats in 45 minutes, cross opens during refreshments, etc.
Regarding the primo, I can make panettone with this acidified primo. While the smell of the primo definitely has some kind of acidic tang to it, I don't notice any acidity in the final product at all, crumb shreds pretty well, loaves keep pretty well, etc.
I don't doubt that, but do you remember if you read this somewhere you can point me to? I'd love to read more. I follow a lot of these people on social media and spend a lot of time reading all their posts and comments trying to find a little wisdom.
Iannarelli in his course materials mentions a range of 4.7 to 5.3, depending on the recipe
Perrando as of 1/23 (this may have changed) mentioned values as low as 4.2-4.3, as there was/is a theory that an acidified (to a point) primo promotes alveolation.
Note: I aim for values above 4.7, which is for me a far safer range.
I have had one failure with a batch that was pH 5.21 but which had damaged gluten from an overly dry (per recipe) primo. So, just hitting a high pH number isn't a guarantee of success!
I have two other class sources that I haven't checked.
I was not familiar with Perrando. I also didn't know who Iannarelli was but after looking him up, I realized that I've been seeing his panettoni in my feed for quite some time now. New people to follow, thanks!
I guess what bugs me is that I don't feel like I have any control over the primo pH. Even if I can't get it above 5, I want to figure out what parameters I can use to influence it. pH 5.0 - 5.3 is just one of those key values you hear, like the PM having to be pH 4.1, and while I don't necessarily see it as a guarantee of success, I can't help but wonder if it is standing in the way of improving my panettone, so it sounded like a good place to start in terms of improvement, HOWEVER...
Your message came at a great time. My primo had just tripled and ended up at pH 4.35. I was in a rush after taking the reading and didn't have time to scrape the dough into the trash and clean up, so I set the primo near the trash to throw away later. Then I saw your message and it convinced me to just bake it off as usual and see what happens.
If this isn't the best panettone I've made so far I will be very surprised. The rise from the top of the case to the top of the dome is probably nearly double what I normally get. I was scrambling after it was baked because I hung it like normal and it bottomed out! It'll probably be a few days before I see what's inside but I am shocked by the oven spring.
This one is dedicated to you Sue! lol I hope it's not a dud.
I just received Hanna pH probe together with sachets containing buffer solutions and cleaning solution. Also there is a small 13 ml dropper with electrode storage solution.
I transferred buffering and cleaning solutions into separate small glass containers, but what is confusing me is what to do with the storage solution. The manual states that before calibration the probe first should be kept in a storage solution for 1 hour. How do I do that? By emptying small 13 ml dropper into a small container that probe is inserted in? What is the liquid in this container that probe is dipped in that came with the original packaging? Do I pour off that liquid and replace it with 13 ml storage solution from the dropper?
I know that many of you use the same Hanna pH probe and I hope somebody can help me out sorting out through these first steps before I can start using it.
Thanks!
I never really thought about it but I assumed that the pH meter comes stored in the same solution and the bottle they give you is to refill it when necessary.
And you are totally correct as I just spoke to supplier's technician confirming that. It makes total sense what you are saying, but I just wanted to make sure. The 13ml dropper is to be used occasionally to add to this storage solution as it evaporates.
Today is the first day I have ever hit the target pH values for both the night's rest and warm refreshment:
It has been a long time and a few different PMs before I've seen these values 😅. At one point (around when I started this thread) I was doubting whether my pH meter could even register below about 4.3 lol. Lately, the night's rest has been fine but the warm refreshment after 4 hours is always at best 4.15, but usually 4.2 - 4.3.
For a while now I've kept the PM in constant maintenance, refreshing only once every 24 hours and leaving it in the water at 16C. I decided to see how it would hold up to more frequent exposure to heat.
For the past two days, I refreshed 1:2 in the morning and just left it at 28C for as long as needed for it to reach pH 4.1 (roughly 6 hours). After that I would refresh 1:1 and submerge it at 18C until the next morning. Today I tested a 1:1 warm refreshment and the PM reached pH 4.1 in 4 hours.
In the past, frequent exposure to heat would cause my PM to lose vitality, but over the past few days, it seems to be remaining in good shape, if not better than when in constant maintenance mode.
I'm going to see if I can keep it within these ranges for the next few days - then I just need to find time to test it out.
Good for you it is nice to hear that the effort paid off!
I did not realize that PM can be that demanding and unforgiving, but I am slowly learning that through my own work. PM is a finicky thing and just as you think you got something right the next day goes in a different direction.
Today I made my first pH reading after 5 hours at 27C and it was 4.09. Based on what you wrote I should be happy, fingers crossed.
Good luck and I am looking forward to hear more on your PM management!
Gordan
Edit: sorry for the spam - just released i posted twice and cant see where i can edit/delete the the post
Thanks for the update. I am continuing the maintenance in water / Morandin method, however I don't seem to be able to triple to volume needed for a panettone.
LM definitely loses its strength being conserved in water (confirmed by Francesca Morandin), to combat that i have been using approx 80-90% flour to LM ratio.
Things have improved slightly, though I still feel my LM is weak. Mostly characterised by:
PH i think i am within the right levels, but im not putting too much weight in the numbers (Morandin says the numbers are useless as they don't tell you acetic vs lactic)
As a test, I attempted to bake some bread, as you can see from the picture below it didnt turn out well.
I have a feeling one of the reasons my LM is not where it needs to be due to the flour. Various research I have read says the tenacity of Manitoba is too high for LM. Also, because Manitoba is expensive, companies tend to cut it with dry yeast to increase the Protein content. A tell tale sign of this (apparently) is dirty coloured water when doing the maintenance in water method.
I forgot to mention, I am also using rain water to do my refreshes. Tap water here in AU tends to be hit and miss
Anyway, until I can get my hands on some recommended flours (such as Petra Molino Quaglia Petra 6384 flour, really hard in Australia) I'll keep playing.
Some photos below of refreshes, and bread attempts. Feel free to provide any feedback / ideas.
Thanks for reply and suggestion, I will definitely try it.
A couple of notes:
I'll try a 1:2 and see how I go. Thanks again
Since early November I am trying to develop LM good enough to be used in baking Panettone. Last few weeks I started using Hanna pH probe. I maintain two LM, one is refreshed once a day and kept dry covered at 16-17 C. The other one is refreshed 2 times, 4 hours apart and kept at 27C after which is wrapped and stored overnight at 16-17 C. This has been standard routine every day. I also do a bath for both of them in the morning before refreshments.
Both of LM seem to have good leavening power, hot LM regularly triples in 4 hours. I am completely unsure what to do next?
Hot LM
Cold LM
Bake with it?
Why do you think that neither is fit for making panettone? Tripling in 4 hours is great, pH isn't bad - are there other qualities you're looking for that you're not seeing?
Testing out panettone is a great way to judge the health of your LM.
Interesting pH data on the "cold" LM - I also noticed with my own starter that free management yields a higher pH in the morning than, say water management. About 3.9 - 4.0 free and 3.8 - 3.9 in water. I've been reading lately about people feeding their PM 2:1 (starter:flour) with free management and having great results (and perhaps that pushes the pH into the desired 3.8-3.9 range). At the same time people feed 1:2 (starter:flour) with similarly great results.
The deeper I go, the more questions I have and the less set-in-stone these processes seem to be...
Thanks for the encouragement! What other qualities don't I see? I can't bring ph under 4 and cross section of LM doesn't look quite the same as some good examples displayed on TFL panettone forums. However, I am going to give it a try with Giorilli recipe.
I've been using water management for a few months now and it's a lot - messy, wasteful, time-consuming, and you never quite know the hydration of the dough. Going "by feel" is fine and works well enough, but I feel you lose a little bit of confidence when changing the hydration - e.g. it's difficult to change hydration by 1% from your last refreshment. So, free maintenance it is, for a while, and I've noticed a few things.
The most interesting is the pH right out of maintenance. I've been keeping my starter at 40% hydration and with a 360W - 380W Manitoba flour, it's rock-solid. The pH after about 24hrs at 18C is always over 4.0. Today, it was 4.12, and that's after a refreshment of 1:0.7! (yes, more starter than flour - I'm just experimenting).
With such a stiff dough that's kept for extended periods in the cold, I like to warm the yeast up in the morning after maintenance, so I do a hot 38C bagnetto for 20 - 30 minutes (no sugar, just to wake up yeasts). Even with the lower feeding ratios, the starter still floats within about 10 minutes. The most interesting part, however, is the pH right after the bagnetto - it drops like a rock. Today, the PH after bagnetto was 3.91!
Did the bagnetto really drop the pH by 0.21 in 30 minutes? No idea, but my instinct tells me that's unlikely. Things slow down at low hydrations and the pH meter seems to have a harder time getting accurate readings as the dough gets stiffer. My guess is that the heat from the bagnetto did of course cause reactions in the yeast and bacteria in the starter, but also softened the LM so that the pH meter was able to get a better reading.
I've used this free-management LM in one bake so far and I'm pretty happy with the results. The primo pH was interesting as well. I used an autolyse of the flour, water, and sugar this time around and closed the primo in 30 minutes. Honestly I could've probably closed it much faster but ran into two issues
1) my butter was just a little too cold, requiring more mixing to heat it up
2) I had a hell of a time incorporating the LM after the autolyse. I probably mixed for an additional 5-10 minutes to get the LM mixed in, and that didn't even work. My primo wound up with this ugly, pimply appearance because the LM crumbled into tiny fragments that never got absorbed. Maybe next time I can reserve some water from the autolyse and use that to soften the LM before adding it. Open to suggestions...
The pH of the primo after it tripled was....I'm not sure 🤣. I have two samples - the bulk of the dough in one container and the spy in a 250ml beaker. pH from the dough in the beaker was about 4.9. Thrilled with that, I checked the bulk dough and it was 4.8. Wondering why there was a discrepancy, I recalibrated and tested 2 or 3 more times. The "spy" dough was always around 4.9 and the bulk dough varied between 4.5 and 4.8. Kind of stumped on this one. The primo did seem like it was missing that soury note I've grown so used to, so I do believe the pH was higher than normal. My intention was to test the effect of the autolyse on primo acidification but the mixing issues I mentioned kind of muddied the data. Still, closing it in 30 minutes is better than my usual 45 or so.
Here are some pictures from the bake.
First refresh 1:2:0.43 after 6 hours at 28C
Second refreshment 1:1:0.45 after 4hrs at 28C. I've gotten a bit more comfortable with the LM management in general. This refreshment landed at a high pH and did not triple - but look at it and tell me it's not ready! This stiff dough has a hard time tripling at lower hydrations and I'm not 100% confident in the pH reading anyway, so proceeded with the primo.
Second dough mixed. I never get tired of seeing the inclusions held on by an almost completely transparent, paper-thin layer of dough. Used EIDB's recipe as usual and this second dough absolutely devoured the butter. I probably could've added more and given the dough was in good shape, I did add the bassinage water this time around.
The final product. As you can see, there's some detachment on the right side. I had some mixing issues this time around, so want to work on that and try again before trying to determine what caused it.
Best tasting panettone with the best texture, so far. This also convinces me that the primo pH was a bit higher than normal.
And to give you a sense of just how stiff the starter is, here it is just mixed. I actually increased the hydration to 42%, but the LM is very thirsty and the extra 2% hydration doesn't seem to have softened it at all
Here's what it usually looks like after. This is from a different refreshment but they all look similar
Perhaps I am shifting it too far in the other direction, but the point of all of this is just to try things and see what happens!
I see you've gone down the super-stiff route. I must admit I feel slightly uncomfortable seeing the LM made quite so stiff. Before it was trendy I tried such moves, but it wasn't for me, I associate excessive stiffness with the "too lactic" problem but here it has worked great for you.
Stiffer = more oxidative, which is good and desired but can cause problems in excess such as those you note, like problems incorporating the LM and longer mixing times. Surely when it's that stiff, it doesn't actually triple?
Nice pictures, and with shots like those, I think you should be blogging about your bakes! With such a great panettone, where do you go from here?
Well done!
Michael
Thanks, Michael!
Yeah, I'm keeping the LM very stiff at the moment. The goal is just to keep it "free" out of convenience and I'm trying to find the right hydration. Very low hydrations seem to slow things down quite a bit and while I try not to live and die by the pH meter, I do feel that the 3.8 - 3.9 range after maintenance is quite important.
I like pairing the free maintenance with the hot bagnetto - there's a noticeable change in the starter in just those 30 minutes. The flattened LM swells considerably, I can hear it bubbling from across the room sometimes, and for my own sanity, the pH after the bath is always in the 3.8 - 3.9 range I'm looking for. I also think the initial 1:2 warm refreshment on production days dilutes the built-up acidity from the night's rest. I have tried free maintenance in the past without the bagnetto and with more typical 1:1 warm refreshments and had pretty bad results.
You're right though, the LM doesn't triple. I think this is where some judgment/experience comes in. I know I'm keeping my LM in conditions that promote acetic acid production and I get a lot of other good signals that the LM is healthy, or at least not too lactic. In light of that, and the fact that I'm using a very strong Manitoba flour at a very low hydration, makes me not worry so much about the LM not tripling. In fact I think the yeasts must be very strong to even double a dough this stiff.
Interesting that you associate the stiff LM with a high lactic load. In fact, I'm managing it this way for the opposite reason - my understanding is that oxygen availability with the free method, along with the cold maintenance temps and low hydration, would balance more towards acetic.
I will definitely start blogging more - I think that's probably a better place for content like this anyway. I feel like this is just the beginning though. I can finally make panettone, but there's so much more to learn. I want more control over the process in general so that there's not so much stress and finger-crossing each bake. And very soon, I'd like to get the LM off of the expensive Italian flour. I agree with the sentiment of Debra's comment at the beginning of this thread that I shouldn't need expensive mail-order flour to maintain my starter. Hopefully with some more experience now I can make this all work with KA Bread Flour or something similar.
Bravo, great looking panettone! I read through many of your posts here on TFL that you wrote about your quest to panettone land and I am happy to see that some of those efforts resulted with a great success!
Thanks! I'm glad you've had some success recently as well!