Over the past year or so, I've been having issues mixing panettone dough . After a lot of research and talking to a few different people. I've concluded that my LM is not healthy. If I am reading the signs correctly, it's too weak.
After feeding and leaving at 30C for 3-4 hours, the LM doubles but does not quite triple. A cross-section of the LM after fermentation shows very tiny alveoli. The starter tastes mild and fruity, but there's really not much acidity to it and the pH seems stuck in the 4.4 - 4.55 range after fermentation. If I understand correctly, after about 12 hours bound at 16-19C, the starter should register a pH of 3.8-3.9, yet mine is still sitting in the 4.4 - 4.5 range.
The issue I'm having now is correcting the balance of microorganisms in the dough, and while there seems to be a lot of information out there on how to create and maintain a LM, there's surprisingly little information on what to do when something goes wrong.
I initially created this LM maybe 1.5 years ago from my 100% sourdough starter and I suspect that something went wrong with this process as my LM has never really behaved correctly. The typical schedule for my starter is to refresh 1/1/0.5 and leave for 3-4 hours at 30 C. I'll do this 2 or 3 times in a day, after which I will bind it and put it in the refrigerator for about a week. If I'm going to bake with it, I'll take it out of the fridge about 3 days before and begin the typical cycle of 3 short warm refreshments followed by 1 long cold one. The starter is maintained exclusively with KA Sir Lancelot flour.
I've been doing things a bit differently lately in order to try and correct the issues I've noticed. I've been taking some suggestions from https://www.dissapore.com/ricette/lievito-madre-di-iginio-massari/ and https://biancolievito.com/how-to-fix-your-sourdough/ on how to strengthen a weak LM.
Over the past week I have been tracking refreshments and have gathered some interesting (and frustrating) data points:
- I have done many 1/0.8 refreshments (starter/flour) at 45% - 50% hydration per Massari's recommendation, yet the starter still seems weak and is not acidifying below 4.4, even after as much as 5 hours at 30 C.
- I have done 2 rather lengthy "long" refreshments. One of these was a submerged refreshment with 19C water left at room temp (about 71F) for 17.5 hours, the other was a bound refreshment at 17-19C for about 35 hours. Both of these resulted in some decent acidification down to about 4.1-4.2. I followed both of these up with 1/0.8 warm refreshments which, in both cases, brought the pH right back up to about 4.4 after 3.5 hours.
- I'm tracking the difference in pH before and after fermentation. The two very long refreshments I mentioned acidified the most, resulting in a pH change of about 0.8 - 0.9. The refreshments immediately following these long ones, however, resulted in the least acidification of all 15 or so refreshments I've tracked so far, decreasing the pH by only 0.29 (oddly, exactly 0.29 in both cases)
- I've tried a longer warm refreshment where I mixed and laminated the dough, rolled it in a ball, and left it at 28C for about 9.5 hours (neither bound nor in water). This only acidified down to about 4.38 and was right back to about 4.5 after the subsequent 3.5 hour warm refreshment
- Out of desperation, I've begun using bottled water instead of filtered tap water. This hasn't seemed to make any difference at all
I'm tempted to create a new LM either from my 100% starter once again, or perhaps from scratch, but I really want to figure this out. If I were to create a new starter that behaved perfectly, I feel I will have lost out on what seems like a valuable learning experience. I am kind of running out of ideas though, which is the purpose of this post.
At this point, I feel like I could leave my LM out in the yard for a week and still effortlessly bring it back to 4.4 pH 🤣. I thought maybe my LM is just happy at 4.4 - 4.5, but given all of my issues mixing panettone dough, I do think it's an issue.
how do you determine it is "too lactic" ?
Apart from the qualities I already mentioned, based on quantitative data, the low pH tells me it is too acidic.
Considering that lactic acid is the primary acid produced during bacterial fermentation and the doughs didn't present any obvious acetic (volatile) acidity then it can only be "too lactic".
I did experiment with that myself, probably about a year ago as alternative to the Milanese and Piemonte methods. Though I stuck to the 1:1 ratio, wherein I was feeding every 24hrs as a means for continued maintenance / storage.
I have also been pushing the yeast in my LM over the last few weeks although from completely the opposite angle. Seems to be working! Just now I have witnessed after a period of just under 4hrs, fed 1:1, my LM had quit producing CO2. The yeast are surely fully maximized! pH was 4.5 though!
Oxygen is indeed a good thing!
Just a note on the heterofermentative thing, so you know F. sanfranciscensis only performs heterolactic fermentation.
Thanks for the note about F. sanfranciscensis. I'm aware that it only performs heterolactic fermentation, but my line of thinking is based on something I recently read about homofermenters in pH4.1:
Based on the way Montanari describes homofermenters as "inhibiting the development of any other microorganism", I feel like this could be applicable to my situation given it has proven very difficult to rebalance the LM. Things that had worked for promoting acetic acid development in the past are no longer working this time around - so my starter seems to be too lactic but somehow in a different way than it was in the past. There is an acetic "tingle" I used to notice on the tip of the tongue. Ever since my starter stopped rising well/stopped tripling, I have not tasted that acetic note. It used to be present in varying degrees, but never absent. Now, it is totally gone. Even the "biga maintenance" hasn't brought it back as strong as it was in the past.Could you point me to that reference please so I can have look? What page?
Interesting, the "tingle" on the tip of your tongue sounds like carbonic acid to me. I remember long ago on one occasion when I used to keep the LM super stiff, when I cut into this refreshed LM it was very, very strongly perfumed with an acetic acid scent but then I tasted the dough and I was so surprised to note absolutely no acidic taste whatsoever!
I think in the case of fermented dough, the levels in which acetic acid occurs means that you would smell before you would ever taste it.
That tingle is definitely carbonic acid!
Interesting - I had assumed it was acetic acid since I often read that acetic acid is perceptible on the tip of the tongue. Of course, I guess many different acids can be perceptible on the tip of the tongue, so it's probably just my interpretation/assumption that is incorrect.
Regarding the information about homofermenters in pH4.1, it's on page 40 in a section entitled "Lattobacilli omofermentanti obbligati". You'll see a yellow box listing out some homofermentative LAB, the first of which is Lactobacillus delbrueckii.
Montanari goes on to explain how these bacteria have an activation temperature of 15C - 45C, which is nearly the entire range of temperatures we use for refreshments and maintenance (aside from storage in the fridge), which is why I say that rebalancing seems difficult in their presence. He also notes that the risk of developing homofermenters is higher in the presence of fiber, which I also assume is applicable to my case given I'm not using a type 0 flour.
on another note, I just started an apple water starter and it has been rocketing at 1:1:1 ratios just after a few days
gonna try and convert it to a LM
Got that cracked exterior on the first refresh of my LM today!
Slightly stiffer than I'd normally make it but went with it. The colour was right too, cream white / ivory white.
When this was mixed, the acidity seemed low and it felt like a yeasted biga dough when kneading.
After 1st refresh.
I'm enjoying this look. However the 2nd Refresh at the same consistency doesn't present the same after rising, as it softens considerably more.
Back when my LM was rising more regularly
Had a crack at the Roy formulation despite knowing it would probably not be fruitful. Indeed it is the softest primo I know of, since I usually manipulate it under hand to finish the mix. IMO there is too much free water in this formulation, which leaves no room for error in fermentation. Hence I knew it wouldn't work, but I thought I'd give it go as my LM was expressing positive alcohol qualities.
After rising, the primo impasto despite tasting almost free of acidity and marginally sweet (I've tasted sweeter), the pH was much too low (I find readings here to be inaccurate). I proceeded to the secondo anyway by remixing with the flour. Afterwards I measured a pH of 4.5 and chose to discontinue as I could tell this would present problems when incorporating butter. It was difficult to work out the gluten!
However the dough a this point was interesting to handle:
I believe that if you had continued, you probably would have succeeded with the Roy recipe. I always make this recipe, and I know that you can do it with this pH. My newest batch is meltingly soft, shreds beautifully, has no trace of acid taste, and rose to 19 cm high.
How does one measure success?!
Trust me, and you should so, as I have been doing this for over a decade now! I know the intricacies, I know gluten well, I know what it can and cannot do. The dough I had was noticeably expressing an elevated oxidative nature, evidenced by not wanting to mix as a whole, it would break into two pieces, the gluten in this case was very resistant to bind to itself. This quality is a key indicator of not wanting to bind fats later in the process. Let's not forget the pH I measured after adding flour from the secondo was 4.5! That is low, very low, and the dough was very stiff (oxidised).
Trust me, you wouldn't be saying what you said if you had the mixer I have and the dough I had... While I like some qualities of my mixer, it is totally insufficient, and while it has mega loads of torque, its design with the limited J-hook, it creates very little shear! I doubt you understand the luxury you have, with the mixer you have which can create lots of shear while producing little heat.
Not tasting sour is one thing, but I know you simply can't attain that Roy style crumb without the correct acidity as measured by a pH meter. And I know the best flavour comes from the same adherence. Flavour development is blocked by elevated acidity in the process. Trust me, I know!
I don't do superficial!
I focus on the foundations, not the glory! hahaha
ok, I admit I have not seen the dough behavior you are describing. I agree that something was probably amiss in your first impasto.
I have never measured pH right after adding the flour in the second impasto, I measure the pH of the first impasto just before starting the second. That's an interesting number, and I will measure it next time. Perrando's target pH after the 1st is 4.2 - 4.3, and this is a controversial issue among bakers, as I'm sure you know. I have never gone that low, and I work on my LM to try to get a higher pH.
Yes the spiral mixer is a great help, especially to avoid overheating the dough (anything above 24C, with a target of 23C)..... however it can still get too hot rather quickly, so requires attention.
Regards, Sue
Dialled back the oxidative issues this time.
With the tweaks I have been making the LM was a very high pH 4.6 after 3.5 hrs! Primo rose on time at 11.5 hrs and was much softer this time. Got as far the last stage with the secondo prior to adding the fruit, but butter didn't incorporate fully, gluten mesh was too resistant, still too lactic!
I worked it as hard as I realistically could without cracking up the mixer to a ridiculously high speed and worked it for ages but no change, it just became greasy and easy to tear while handling.
I did some tests to evaluate the effectiveness of these "biga" style refreshments I've been doing. They've been working really well for me and wanted to make sure my results aren't a fluke or something.
To recap, my starter has been slow to rise and hasn't been tripling. When doing water refreshments at 18C, it takes anywhere from 6 to 12 hours to float (i know...). My hypothesis is that my LM is too lactic as I've read that yeasts aren't very active in the presence of an abundance of lactic acid, but they seem to perform really well in the presence of acetic acid.
I've been trying to promote acetic acid with an approach similar to what Montanari recommends in Omnia Fermenta - 2 refreshments per day, 12 hours apart refreshed with 1 part yeast, 2 parts flour, and 43% water. Everything is mixed lightly and left to ferment at 20-22C.
My modifications to Montanari's suggestion are as follows:
So, quite a few changes. Maybe it's more "inspired by Montanari" than a tweaking of his formula. I tested these two methods over the course of a week or so.
My LM started out taking 6 hours to float at 18C and did not triple.
First I tried more or less exactly what Montanari recommends. I did that for 3 days for a total of 6 refreshments. I tested a submerged refreshment once more after this and it took 12 hours to float - the longest I had ever seen. This was moving in the wrong direction.
After the submerged refreshment that took 12 hours to float, I did 3 days of my biga-style refreshments. After those 3 refreshments, I tested a submerged refreshment once again at 18C and it floated in about 1.5 - 2 hours! Massive improvement, but hoping I can still get it to float a bit sooner.
It's difficult to measure things during the biga refreshments as you don't get much of a rise and I feel like there's no real accurate way to read pH, however, I noticed over the course of doing this that the starter began to smell more and more alcoholic, which I took to be a good sign that the yeasts were getting more active.
I realize this is kind of an unconventional method that you don't really see mentioned anywhere, but I'd recommend giving this style of refreshment a try if your starter is too lactic and you're not seeing success with other remedies
Zoia panettone with Zoia flour (Dallagiovanna Panettone Z).
Massively overproved, as my scheduling was all off. It rose overnight while I was asleep, I imagine it got to full proof and stayed there for 6 hours or more... Still it didn't fall, which was a surprise.
If you have problems to reach a ph of 3.8-3.9, Do this:
Feed 1:.08:38% ( LM-flour-water) at 18c or 19c is fine for 24 hours. Keep doing that for a few days.
Hello there,
I have been following TFL discussions for many years and finally decided to join the crowd. For many years I have been baking sour dough breads with 100% hydration rye starter and for the most part I am happy with the results. I even made 3 attempts of making a panettone and 2 times was successful while 1 was a royal failure. My dough turned into a mud half way through the process.
Two successful tries were with either instant yeast only or combo of instant yeast and firm sour dough starter. Interestingly these two I did manually by hand and the one that failed by stand mixer.
About a month ago I started my ambitious plan to develop LM and followed Giallo Zafferano's recipe ( https://youtu.be/K1xQ4oDLyWw?si=YC0VVfPEhEk_p_bT). After 31 days my LM looked strong, but did not quite triple in 3 hours at room temperature as in the video.
I decided to dig deeper and red through ton of discussions on this site and Michael W. blog. Great stuff, but admittedly got me dizzy with the amount of info I needed to digest.
Right now I am at the end of my 2nd day of feeding cycle. I did 2x4 hrs refreshments 1:1:0.5 at 27C and overnight 16hr in water @ 17C.
On the next day I did the wash in water with sugar and continued with the same routine.
So far my LM does not quite triple in 4 hours.
After reading SueVT discussions and learning that she does 7-8 hours warm cycle I decided to try the same. Will se how it turns out.
I have a strong desire to make it work and bake my own panettone. I would appreciate any additional guidance that would help in this journey?
These are some of photos of my LM process:
Initial 31 Day starter developing process:
This is how LM looked after 31 days for the first bagnetto
This morning before bagnetto
First refreshment 1:1.5:0.3
After 4 hours @ 27C
I've had a lot of issues with my LM not tripling and I have never been able to correct this using warm refreshments. Of course, there are many variables and possible reasons for the LM not tripling, but for me, it has always been a matter of the starter being too acidic - specifically too lactic. I suspect that is probably your issue as well based on your images. When submerging your LM, it should float to the surface in about 60-90 minutes, thereby exposing the surface of the LM to air and creating a crust that hardens over the remaining ~15 hours. Your LM seems to have no crust at all, which is generally a sign of a LM that is too lactic. The bagnetto might not be enough of a correction.
What has worked for me is correcting this during the maintenance refreshments. Specifically, I refresh 1:2 (starter:flour) to dilute the influence of my imbalanced starter, then submerge at 16C for 20-24 hours. I do that for a day or two depending on how bad the situation is. At 1:2, I often notice less of a rise, so after a few days I'll go back to 1:1 to see how quickly it's floating, how thick of a crust it forms, how much it rises, etc.
Also, I'm not sure what kind of flour you're using, but if you can go lower than 50% hydration, you might want to try that. Lower hydrations are said to promote more acetic acid development and will also help your starter from disintegrating too much over the long submersion.
When my starter isn't rising well, I almost entirely avoid the heat.
Thanks joegranz I appreciate your feedback!
I don't know how long it takes for my LM to float to the surface, I will check that tonight. Another mistake that I have made is covering the container and that is the reason I had no formed crust.
Yesterday I refreshed it 1:1.5:0.45 and kept it at 27C for 8 hours. To my pleasant surprise LM for the first time more than tripled and filled the jar!
I then fed it again 1:1.5:0.4 and kept it submerged at 17C for 18 hours. LM again more then doubled and floated to the top. The cross section appeared to have larger porosity then before. After bagnetto I fed it again 1:1.5:0.35 and is now in proffer at 27C, finger crossed.
If I get a good rise today again I am not sure what to do next? Should I keep going with the same routine?
I am in Canada so I use Boreal Organic Flour made by LA MEUNERIE MILANAISE INC. with 13.33% protein content.
Again thanks for all the feedback!
Gordan
Glad that the higher dose of flour worked out - also goes to show how what works for one LM might not work for another. I've never been able to correct this using warm refreshments - much less with just a single one.
In terms of what to do next - the general recommendation is that the LM should triple in 3-4 hours when refreshed 1:1. I'm not sure how that time scales to a 1:1.5 refreshment. You might be in good shape or it might be taking too long. 8 hours to triple for 1:1.5 does sound a bit long, but not sure. 27C is also on the cooler end of the warm refreshment range, so you'd expect it to take a little longer.
It also depends on how the LM looks, feels, smells, etc. - as far as looks, it's a little hard to tell by the image of it in the jar. It does seem a bit soft / sticky - was that the case?
Personally, I would probably test out 1:1 and see what it does in 3-4 hours because if something goes wrong, I'd question whether or not the LM was up to the task in the first place.
I refreshed yesterday 1:1.5:0.4 and LM tripled in 4 hours during the warm stage. Refreshed again 1:1.5:0.45 submerged for 20 hours at 17C, this time without cover on container. LM floated up to the surface in about 3 hours. This time it had a crust formed and overall had more structure to it. I tasted it and although I am not exactly sure what I am looking for I find the taste pleasant, lightly sweet with little tang to it. The day before was just sweet, as a point of reference.
Today I refreshed it 1:1:0.4 and during 4 hours @ 27C did not quite make it to triple. It is better then before , but not there yet. I will just keep it up until it triples and then likely again will proceed with 1:1.5:0.45 for submerged overnight at 17C. The plan of action for tomorrow is still unclear, will see.
You are correct LM is sticky, but I would expect it to be so after it fills up with gas and more then triples in volume. Am I wrong with this? As I said it smells and tastes pleasant to me, but that is probably unreliable and very subjective assessment tool.
Yesterday 1:1.5:0.4 at 27C triple in 4 hours
Cross section after 20 hour submerge phase at 17C
Today 1:1:0.4 at 27C after 4 hours
Based on my experience, the LM should be soft after it triples but I wouldn't call it sticky - meaning you should be able to handle it without bits sticking to your hands. It should stand up to being sliced and pull out of that jar in one piece, more or less.
I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but it seems like you're having more issues after submerging the LM - either for the bagnetto or the overnight maintenance. I use water maintenance a lot and based on taste alone, the outer mushy parts of the LM that were in contact with the water seem very acidic. Could some of that be getting included in the following refreshment? Also, in the picture after water maintenance, the LM seems a little soft. It's hard to tell because I laminate and roll mine so am more familiar with what that cross-section looks like. Does the whole LM seem very wet to you or is the inside still dry, more or less?
I keep LM in a glass jar without gasket which assures higher relative humidity and prevents crust forming.LM is soft and sticky and I would not be able to cut it when I pull it out of the jar. LM is firm when I keep it in a bowl lined and covered with cotton cloth and then also has a tiny layer of crust.
After reading through some Italian master baker materials posted on Michael Wilson's blog I tried to troubleshoot my LM. Based on my tasting results where LM appears to be sweetish with slight hint of acidity that apparently might indicate a weak LM. The remedy I learned is to refresh 1:0.8:0.5 and keep it at 28C until the result is LM tripling in 3-4 hours.
I did 2 refreshments yesterday and today, it seem to work :). After the maintenance phase of 16 hours submerged at 17C the LM was soft but firmer then before and the bath water was clear.
I try to scrape off any mushy parts and peel off crusty section of LM before cutting it up for bagnetto. It is highly unlikely that any of mushy acidic parts would make it to the next refreshment.
Thank you for your continuous feedback and I hope you have a healthy and happy New Year!
I agree with joegranz, this looks "too lactic" in that there is excessive load of acid consistently present.
I also noticed the damp looking rolled dough in water, there should be a crust of some sort. Did you cover it? Or is it because it was submerged for a long time. Again I agree, that the acidity affects the crust formation.
Easiest way to flush acidity is to increase the flour dosage but in doing so more fermentation time must be added if leavening power is in question.
Yes I did cover it during the cool conservation stage. I also noticed that LM sticks to the bottom since I pour in the water second. This might have not helped with rising up to float so I will try to reverse the order.
I have been doing now 1:1.5:0.4 and during the warm phase ( 27C ) I got the LM to triple in 8hrs. How long should I keep doing this feeding ratio before switching back to 1:1:0.5?
I just ordered Ph meter since acidity seem to be a major factor in managing LM. Hope that will help out more in finding the right path.
Thanks for your feedback Michael!
Gordan
The things seem to turn for the better with my LM management. After initial troubles with LM that would only double in 4 hours and was sticky I tried a remedial action with 1:0.8:0.5 feedings. LM was doing well and after couple of days of consistent tripling by volume in 4 hours I switched to 1:1:0.45 feedings.
Again without trouble LM is tripling in 4 hours, for the last couple of days. The dough seem dryer, not sticky at all and the cross section looks much improved too. Perhaps I could try to bake panettone now, but I decided to wait until my new PH probe arrives just to make sure Ph readings are in line too.
I tasted the dough and to me It has a neutral taste and a pleasant fruity smell. Lot more to learn no doubt, but it is exciting to successfully overcome first challenges with LM that I had to face.
Yes, this is more or less what I would expect to see. Seems to be in much better shape. Nice work.
Have you been doing warm refreshments every 4 hours or have you been letting it rest in the cold at all?
Thank you! Yes I have been doing 2 warm refreshments @ 28 C every four hours followed by 16 hour conservation stage submerged in water at 17 C.
Hi everyone, new member here but have been lurking for a while. Sorry to hijack the thread but I am having the same issue as the OP..can't get LM to triple..only double and a bit.
My question is, what flour are you all using? I am in Australia where it's hard to get panettone flour. I am currently using a Manitoba which isn't ideal, wondering if this is source of my problems.
P.s great to see everyone helping each other
When I started this thread I believe I was using King Arthur Sir Lancelot. At one point, another member was helping me and we switched to King Arthur Bread Flour since it's more common and readily available around here.
Both of those flours are malted. I know that some members here use malted flours for LM and panettone with success, but I didn't have much luck - the LM always seemed to get too acidic too quickly. Maybe now, with a slightly better understanding, I could make it work but I found it much easier to avoid them for a while.
Right now I am using Caputo Manitoba Oro. This flour is quite strong, as I imagine yours is. The one thing to be aware of is that it requires more leavening power from the yeast to "inflate" a stiffer dough than a softer one. If you take the hydration too low and it doesn't triple, it still might be ok.
That being said, warm refreshments @ 46-50% triple fine for me, as do long 16-24hr 1:1 submerged refreshments at 17C with about 40 - 43% hydration. I actually refresh the yeast with 36 - 38% water after the submerged refreshments so I'm not entirely sure what the final hydration is since some water does seem to get absorbed by the yeast.
Thanks for that, good to know you managed to get a triple with your Manitoba Oro. I was using Caputo, now 5stagoni. (Both Manitoba)
I got myself a brod and Taylor sourdough home so I can do temperature controlled refreshes at 16deg. Atm I am following the Morandin method in water. Do you manage to get a crust on yours? I haven't thus far.
I'll post some pictures tonight when I do my refreshment
Yes, I do get a crust, but since I've been putting my LM to rest in a very small wine fridge, the crust hasn't been as thick. The hygrometer in the fridge reads a very high humidity, usually >= 80%. It seems the water the LM is stored in has a big impact on humidity in such a small space, and higher humidity will lead to less of a crust.
The LM rises to the surface usually within an hour when refreshed 1:1, but I do play with the temps a bit. I'd like for fermentation to begin before putting to rest at 17C, so I try to close the dough at 26C, which is difficult. If I close the dough at 26C, I will place in 26C water and immediately put it in the cooler at 17C. Typically, I close the dough at 22 - 23C, so I use water 28 - 29C to compensate, still putting it directly into the cooler at 17C.
If it helps at all, here are some pictures of my LM from the past day or two. I'm not saying this is necessarily something to guide you, as the existence of this thread alone should be evidence enough that I'm not the best person to take advice from, but I did bake with this LM yesterday without any catastrophic failures, so it works, more or less. All of these refreshments were done with Caputo Manitoba Oro.
Here is the starter before and after 22 hours at 17C, refreshed 1:1:0.37 (low hydration because it was refreshed after another submerged refreshment). Actually, the "before" picture is from the refreshment immediately following the after picture - I only included it as a size reference to show how much it grew since the same refreshment quantities were used.
After a long maintenance refreshment like that, this is typically what I see on the inside. It does tend to get very mushy, even on the inside. If you notice in the images above, the LM before fermentation has a tighter coil than it does after - this is because while in the water, my LM will typically unroll and then swell up - which is fine but by unrolling, a lot more of the LM is exposed to the water.
This is before and after a warm refreshment 1:1.25:0.46 for about 4 - 4.5 hours. pH was about 4.13 in the end.
And here is the inside
I wasn't too happy with the way the primo or secondo looked or felt using this LM, but it worked out well enough. I'll know more once I cut the panettone and see what the crumb looks like.
Finally, cut into this a week after baking it. Crumb looks pretty good - more open, but alveoli seem rounder and less vertical than the last batch. Tastes great. Caputo Manitoba Oro seems to work decently well for panettone (unless it is part of the reason for the primo acidification...). I think the primo acidified to pH 4.6 on this one.
Not out of the woods yet though. I got bold and tried Roy's recipe which fell apart when the water was added to the secondo. I then tried Giorilli's formula as well and that fell apart when adding the eggs to the secondo. Both acidified to about pH 4.3.
I didn't feel like my PM was overly acidic in either case - either I'm wrong about that or the primo acidification is causing similar issues when incorporating the fat (or maybe PM issues are amplified when working with an acidic primo).
Anyway, two steps forward, one step back, or something like that...
Thanks for the update. I am continuing the maintenance in water / Morandin method, however I don't seem to be able to triple to volume needed for a panettone.
LM definitely loses its strength being conserved in water (confirmed by Francesca Morandin), to combat that i have been using approx 80-90% flour to LM ratio.
Things have improved slightly, though I still feel my LM is weak. Mostly characterised by:
PH i think i am within the right levels, but im not putting too much weight in the numbers (Morandin says the numbers are useless as they don't tell you acetic vs lactic)
As a test, I attempted to bake some bread, as you can see from the picture below it didnt turn out well.
I have a feeling one of the reasons my LM is not where it needs to be due to the flour. Various research I have read says the tenacity of Manitoba is too high for LM. Also, because Manitoba is expensive, companies tend to cut it with dry yeast to increase the Protein content. A tell tale sign of this (apparently) is dirty coloured water when doing the maintenance in water method.
I forgot to mention, I am also using rain water to do my refreshes. Tap water here in AU tends to be hit and miss
Anyway, until I can get my hands on some recommended flours (such as Petra Molino Quaglia Petra 6384 flour, really hard in Australia) I'll keep playing.
Some photos below of refreshes, and bread attempts. Feel free to provide any feedback / ideas.
Usual disclaimer that I have no idea what I'm doing, so take my opinions as just a different perspective of someone struggling through the same process rather than a solution to your problem. I'm always hesitant to give advice because I don't feel qualified to do so - so If someone more knowledgeable disagrees with what I'm saying, listen to them 😂. Also, while I use water for maintenance, I'm not familiar with how the LM performs using the Morandin method.
Just a few quick notes about your measurements - there is no "before" picture of the LM pre-fermentation with the green rubberband marking the top of the dough. Just make sure that the starter is pressed to the bottom of the jar and touching the sides. If you form a ball, drop the starter into the jar, and mark the top of the ball, then it will grow wider during fermentation making it harder to judge whether or not it tripled (if you want to form a ball, press the dough to the bottom of the jar first, mark it, then take it out to shape it and drop it back in). Sorry if this is obvious, but the picture of the jar with the pink rubberband made me think it was worth mentioning.
The other thing is regarding the float times during the bagnetto - are you squeezing/flattening the pieces before putting them in the water? If you don't do that, in some cases they won't ever sink.
In my experience, if a LM is not tripling then there is an acidity issue. I've read about a lot of reasons why a LM wouldn't triple, but I feel like most of them are easy to rule out - flour is too strong, dough is too dry/stiff, dough wasn't mixed well so gluten can't trap the gas, etc. Acidity has always been the issue for me and when that's the case, I avoid warm refreshments. I think of it like this - if you have a dough that's already too acidic and you perform a 1:1 warm refreshment, for example, you dilute the acidity with the refreshment but then place the dough right back into an environment that promotes acidity. It's going to be hard to break free from that acidity without intervening in some other way. In your case you are using lower doses of flour compared to the yeast, so you are diluting it even less than the standard 1:1.
I know the water helps with acidity but I am not sure how much - my instinct tells me that temperature is more important, but I could be wrong. I have no doubt the Morandin method works, but perhaps you need to start from a stronger base, with an already healthy LM. One thing I've learned about these methods throughout this process is no matter how religiously you follow them, at some point, you will need to make a correction that falls outside of the method you're following.
Just a few days ago my LM stopped tripling. I noticed that when I put it to rest, it took a bit longer to float. The following day, it looked like it had maybe just doubled. I skipped warm refreshments that day and put it right back in the cold at 16C for about 24 hours and the LM was right back to normal.
The yeasts won't love the cold, so I'm not saying that prolonged time in the cold will cause immediate, explosive growth, but my hope is that it will help shift the acidity so that when you put the LM back in the heat, it will triple.
As for flour / water issues - I use bottled spring water for my starter. If you think the Manitoba flour is too strong, you could always mix it with a weaker flour.
Good luck!
I can see from the pictures that your LM has an elevated acid load.
The newly rolled dough in water isn't smooth looking. High acidity increases the time it takes for the dough to smooth out. The acidity tensions the gluten making it too resistant.
The dough in water after fermenting is far too broken down. The dough underneath has completely melted. This is really not good. Here's mine from several years ago:
The high acidity physically impedes the ability of the gluten to stretch and therefore reach triple.
Moradin's warning about overly tenacious flour has been misunderstood. Ultimately he's calling for the use of flour which has a balanced resistance (P) / extensibility (L) ratio. A P/L of 0.55 is perfect. US bread flour would indeed suffer with too much tenacity. When measured they often have P/L values far too high. The flours I listed on my blog are all ideal.
As for a remedy, a 1:2 feed will definitely be needed to flush out the excessive acidity.
Just because it's relevant...
Is this another approach to growing/maintenance of LM? I presume each of number of recipes designed by master bakers is valid, but how to decide which one to use and to stick with?
From what I learned so far the only parameters that are measurable and relevant in assessing LM's health and deciding consequential course of action are : visual appearance, taste, the power of rising (tripling in 4 hours) and Ph readings. Am I getting this right?
It is interesting but no less confusing to see how different methods and practices lead to similar end results. The above chart shows increase in flour to mother dough ratio after each refreshment and the fermenting temperature 20-24C. As from my readings Massari advises 1:1:0.5 refreshment ratio for maintenance and 1:1.1:0.45 refreshment ratio at 28-30C when developing mother dough for panettone. Very different parameters leading to the same result.
What is the most practical approach in assessing what to do in developing healthy LM?
I take this information as more a summary than a specific edict. Although, we can draw from it certain principles. It appears the flour ratio is given as a range and is mostly decreasing with subsequent refreshes.
That's right measuring objectively all possible parameters and subjectively assessing the organoleptic properties all add to the skill set.
From researching, I have noticed that industrial production (from which this graphic stems) tends to use these cooler temps. I guess industrially where everything is designed to be very exact they can successfully use lower temps.
Massari and other maestros processes are "artisanal" in nature.
Sorry to say I don't have a definitive answer because the starters we work with are unique and when we assess them they are snapshots with a wide array of variation. Only the user can inform the next step.
In terms of processing, I can offer one possibly welcome certainty. Generally the maestros that use the Piemonte method typically stick religiously to a 1:1 (starter: flour) ratio for the maintenance.
Hello, long time lurker, first time poster – literally just created an account to post this because I’m so grateful to have been able to read about everyone else’s experiences, successful or not, so I thought I’d throw my story into the mix.
I started making naturally leavened panettone in 2020, and in 2021 had an amazing panettone season where the texture was beautifully feathery and the proof times were pretty much exactly what was expected based on the recipe.
2022 was a total disaster – I had similar problems to some of the people here – PM not increasing enough in volume (barely doubling), horrendous proofing times, acidic first dough and associated difficulties in mixing final dough.
2023 I was determined to not let it get to that point again, but it wasn't looking good. I was pretty sure the problem was that my PM was too lactic, but I hadn’t been able to fix it (maybe it was just too far gone – I’d tried pretty much all the things joegranz tried – I felt your pain when I read this thread!).
In both 2022 and 2023, when I first created the PM (from a liquid starter that I normally use), it was initially weak as expected, and then a few weeks in I’d have one promisingly good run (decent volume in warm refreshment, no problem mixing final dough, good proofing times), then it would start to turn bad again. It seemed like it turned too lactic – the PM would barely double in a warm refresh, and it would be bitter and sticky (though the pH at the end of feeds was always still around 4.1).
In a fit of desperation in October 2023, I decided to start over using the apple water method posted in this thread. I had a crazy active PM to start with, but by about a week later it started to slow down in terms of max volume and speed of expansion. The pH at this point was still fairly high (around 4.3 after 4 hours @ 28°C), so it didn’t seem likely that it was too acidic overall… maybe just tipped too far towards lactic, and also probably not enough yeast.
So I tried all the things that was supposed to push it more acetic and increase yeast all in one go (I know this isn’t the most well-controlled experiment, but I needed to get it together before my annual panettone charity bake sales 🙈):
… and after a week or so, it seemed to turn around, I got it to almost triple every time, and it didn’t feel sticky. I kept 1-3 from above, but started doing a more normal feed schedule (1 or 2 refreshes at 28°C for 4 hours, then overnight rest 16-18°C).
My first dough was still always too acidic (pH around 4.3 – if anyone's got ideas for fixing this I'd love to know for next year) but it rose at a good rate (tripled in 10 hours @ 25°C), and I didn’t have problems with incorporating eggs and butter, or with dough strength, in the final dough, final proof was about 6-8 hours @ 29°C. (My formula is based on the Giorilli one.)
I realise this post is much less scientific and data-driven than most of the ones here (I have no background in chemistry or biology), but I thought I’d post about what worked for me in case it’s helpful to someone (and it’d be a bonus if anyone more qualified wants to comment on my logic and methods 😂).
Here are some pictures of my PM at the end of a 4-hour refresh, panettone from my first batch after doing all those tweaks above (I also have a video of me pulling apart the crumb of this panettone).
Thank you to everyone who's shared their experiences – I'm so grateful that this forum exists!
This is the one issue for which I haven't found any solution anywhere on the web or in the texts I've read. I don't know that anyone on this site has solved it (though I have every confidence in Michael 🤞🏻). I've read through a few other sites/forums and it's an incredibly common issue.
Nice panettone though! That crumb-pull is awesome!
Hi,
I've had success in raising the pH of first impasto by shifting some of the sugar in the second impasto to the first impasto. This should be done with awareness of the %Cu you are hitting with the resulting mixture. (See Chambelland's book for explanation of %Cu if needed).
Michael has posted a calculator on his blog which could help with this calculation... I created my own in Excel. It's important to control the amount of sugar being shifted, because it's possible to really slow down development too much if you're not careful! However, you can get a more balanced result and higher pH this way.
Romero's book "Remember 28C" explores ways of controlling fermentation for a particular result.
Lowering temperature on the first impasto also helps control fermentation to some degree.
Cheers, Sue
Yeah, this has been on my list of things to try. I've seen it mentioned in SPV and I've seen you mention it on some other threads around here. I've been so focused on my PM that I haven't yet dug into the panettone process and so haven't really considered many corrections there - but this does make sense to me.
As for temps, the aggressive acidification is accompanied by similarly aggressive leavening. At this point, I am letting my primo rest at room temp, which is about 21 - 22C and it still triples early. Any lower than that and I'd have to figure out how to fit the primo into my PM's wine cooler lol.
The sugar correction is great - definitely going to try that, but I do tend get hung up on the why of things. I can't help but think that this is an issue with the PM. I would love to be able to identify it and correct it during PM maintenance, or even to recognize when the correction might not be necessary (if and when that ever happens).
One step at a time though. On the next bake I will try a higher Cu value for the primo.
One question though - because our PMs seem to behave atypically in the primo (causing this acidification), do Teffri-Chambelland's recommendations of keeping Cu below 50 (if I remember correctly) still stand? Does that max Cu value get pushed even higher to compensate for the rapid acidification we're seeing?
So yes, Chambelland mentions 50 %Cu as an upper limit. However, I think at 50, not much happens at all. Most of the recipes have 1st impastos in the 30-37 range; check a few and see... I have compared quite a few of them, and some of the common recipes are around 30 on the first. This value ensures that things will ferment and volume will (most likely) triple in the allotted time. However it can go too fast, depending on the state of the LM.
i am taking recipes that are at that value and adjusting upward to no more than around 34-35%, because I had one above 40 that stalled/took a long time. Again, that is also dependent on the state of the LM. However, the next week I took that same LM and had radically different results by adjusting %Cu downwards again. So I know that it is a *one* controlling factor.
Again, if you add sugar in the first impasto, it has to be taken away from the second impasto, so that the overall recipe balance stays the same (unless you are trying to change it).
Other things: I have seen and tried out a recipe in which water was restricted in the first impasto as a way of slowing fermentation. IMO this is counterproductive, as it makes mixing difficult, stresses/heats the dough, and has limited effect. And yes, I have a thermoelectric cooler which can fit a rising box for my primo, so I can select any desired termperature. This is very handy.
Just to report back, this did not work for me.
I used my usual formula (EIDB) and raised Cu of the primo from 34 (If I remember correctly) to 41 by moving some sugar from the second dough into the first.
Fermentation occurred at a much better rate, close to what was prescribed in the formula. Unfortunately, the primo still wound up at the usual alarmingly-low pH value.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Wow, so you truly have a more unbalanced LM at this point. There are so many posts on this thread, sorry I can't go back through all of them but, I know that Michael was advocating a 1:2 feeding to weaken the starter.. I am assuming you have tried variations on this theme. It is difficult I know!!
Have you titrated total acidity to get a more true picture of what's going on? I have the equipment because of cheesemaking, but haven't tested my LM this way.
Haha yeah, the post has gotten a bit out of hand. I don't even remember the history of the conversation myself.
LM does seem out of balance. My issue was always the second dough splitting when incorporating the fats. To fix that, I started keeping my LM in maintenance most of the time, only doing a hot bagnetto and/or warm refreshment 2-3x per week. I have perhaps pushed it too far in the other direction now, though I feel like the issue is a bit more complex. I often read about people making Roy's panettone with a LM that has vinegar notes and have even seen some using free maintenance while feeding the LM 2:1 (starter:flour, not a typo, I promise) and creating beautiful panettone. I don't see how those LMs can perform well but mine would be simply "too acetic".
There were a few consecutive days in the past week or so where I refreshed the LM 1:2 and waited until it hit 4.1 before putting into maintenance. Also, the primo where I used the high Cu value had 2 refreshments leading up to it, 1:2 and then 1:1 (though pH didn't drop below 4.2 on the 1:1 refreshment...). So, yeah I guess I have tried it.
But this experiment has at least reinforced that the issue is likely with the LM. Since I have slightly better control over it now, the plan is to play around with some of the LM management variables and keep mixing primos until I get >= 5.0 after fermentation. At least waste is minimal that way and allows me to experiment.
I don't have the equipment for TTA, so never tested it.
I agree with your analysis. You will know when your LM improves, as it will handle differently (Michael pointed this out earlier), the texture will be smoother. It shouldn't have vinegary notes (!!)....
However IMO this is an important point: it does not have to be pH > 5.0 after 1st impasto fermentation. I personally have only had one over 4.85, and I have been making consistently very good panettone for the last year (texture, flavor, shreddability, keeping characteristics etc). Several very reputable panettone people who also teach, have pointed this out. It is true that getting the pH up over 4.7 will produce a better crumb. But plenty of people who claim to have pH > 5.0 are producing quite unattractive panettone for other reasons related to their process.
Well, my LM doesn't have vinegary notes. In fact, if it weren't for this primo acidification issue, I'd guess my LM was actually in pretty good shape 😅. It seems to hit all of the right benchmarks - triples, pH 3.8 - 3.9 after maintenance, pH 4.1 - 4.2 after refreshments, nice open alveoli after maintenance, no off tastes or smells, good crust after maintenance (even after refreshments for that matter), floats in 45 minutes, cross opens during refreshments, etc.
Regarding the primo, I can make panettone with this acidified primo. While the smell of the primo definitely has some kind of acidic tang to it, I don't notice any acidity in the final product at all, crumb shreds pretty well, loaves keep pretty well, etc.
I don't doubt that, but do you remember if you read this somewhere you can point me to? I'd love to read more. I follow a lot of these people on social media and spend a lot of time reading all their posts and comments trying to find a little wisdom.
Iannarelli in his course materials mentions a range of 4.7 to 5.3, depending on the recipe
Perrando as of 1/23 (this may have changed) mentioned values as low as 4.2-4.3, as there was/is a theory that an acidified (to a point) primo promotes alveolation.
Note: I aim for values above 4.7, which is for me a far safer range.
I have had one failure with a batch that was pH 5.21 but which had damaged gluten from an overly dry (per recipe) primo. So, just hitting a high pH number isn't a guarantee of success!
I have two other class sources that I haven't checked.
I was not familiar with Perrando. I also didn't know who Iannarelli was but after looking him up, I realized that I've been seeing his panettoni in my feed for quite some time now. New people to follow, thanks!
I guess what bugs me is that I don't feel like I have any control over the primo pH. Even if I can't get it above 5, I want to figure out what parameters I can use to influence it. pH 5.0 - 5.3 is just one of those key values you hear, like the PM having to be pH 4.1, and while I don't necessarily see it as a guarantee of success, I can't help but wonder if it is standing in the way of improving my panettone, so it sounded like a good place to start in terms of improvement, HOWEVER...
Your message came at a great time. My primo had just tripled and ended up at pH 4.35. I was in a rush after taking the reading and didn't have time to scrape the dough into the trash and clean up, so I set the primo near the trash to throw away later. Then I saw your message and it convinced me to just bake it off as usual and see what happens.
If this isn't the best panettone I've made so far I will be very surprised. The rise from the top of the case to the top of the dome is probably nearly double what I normally get. I was scrambling after it was baked because I hung it like normal and it bottomed out! It'll probably be a few days before I see what's inside but I am shocked by the oven spring.
This one is dedicated to you Sue! lol I hope it's not a dud.
I just received Hanna pH probe together with sachets containing buffer solutions and cleaning solution. Also there is a small 13 ml dropper with electrode storage solution.
I transferred buffering and cleaning solutions into separate small glass containers, but what is confusing me is what to do with the storage solution. The manual states that before calibration the probe first should be kept in a storage solution for 1 hour. How do I do that? By emptying small 13 ml dropper into a small container that probe is inserted in? What is the liquid in this container that probe is dipped in that came with the original packaging? Do I pour off that liquid and replace it with 13 ml storage solution from the dropper?
I know that many of you use the same Hanna pH probe and I hope somebody can help me out sorting out through these first steps before I can start using it.
Thanks!
I never really thought about it but I assumed that the pH meter comes stored in the same solution and the bottle they give you is to refill it when necessary.
And you are totally correct as I just spoke to supplier's technician confirming that. It makes total sense what you are saying, but I just wanted to make sure. The 13ml dropper is to be used occasionally to add to this storage solution as it evaporates.
Today is the first day I have ever hit the target pH values for both the night's rest and warm refreshment:
It has been a long time and a few different PMs before I've seen these values 😅. At one point (around when I started this thread) I was doubting whether my pH meter could even register below about 4.3 lol. Lately, the night's rest has been fine but the warm refreshment after 4 hours is always at best 4.15, but usually 4.2 - 4.3.
For a while now I've kept the PM in constant maintenance, refreshing only once every 24 hours and leaving it in the water at 16C. I decided to see how it would hold up to more frequent exposure to heat.
For the past two days, I refreshed 1:2 in the morning and just left it at 28C for as long as needed for it to reach pH 4.1 (roughly 6 hours). After that I would refresh 1:1 and submerge it at 18C until the next morning. Today I tested a 1:1 warm refreshment and the PM reached pH 4.1 in 4 hours.
In the past, frequent exposure to heat would cause my PM to lose vitality, but over the past few days, it seems to be remaining in good shape, if not better than when in constant maintenance mode.
I'm going to see if I can keep it within these ranges for the next few days - then I just need to find time to test it out.
Good for you it is nice to hear that the effort paid off!
I did not realize that PM can be that demanding and unforgiving, but I am slowly learning that through my own work. PM is a finicky thing and just as you think you got something right the next day goes in a different direction.
Today I made my first pH reading after 5 hours at 27C and it was 4.09. Based on what you wrote I should be happy, fingers crossed.
Good luck and I am looking forward to hear more on your PM management!
Gordan
Edit: sorry for the spam - just released i posted twice and cant see where i can edit/delete the the post
Thanks for the update. I am continuing the maintenance in water / Morandin method, however I don't seem to be able to triple to volume needed for a panettone.
LM definitely loses its strength being conserved in water (confirmed by Francesca Morandin), to combat that i have been using approx 80-90% flour to LM ratio.
Things have improved slightly, though I still feel my LM is weak. Mostly characterised by:
PH i think i am within the right levels, but im not putting too much weight in the numbers (Morandin says the numbers are useless as they don't tell you acetic vs lactic)
As a test, I attempted to bake some bread, as you can see from the picture below it didnt turn out well.
I have a feeling one of the reasons my LM is not where it needs to be due to the flour. Various research I have read says the tenacity of Manitoba is too high for LM. Also, because Manitoba is expensive, companies tend to cut it with dry yeast to increase the Protein content. A tell tale sign of this (apparently) is dirty coloured water when doing the maintenance in water method.
I forgot to mention, I am also using rain water to do my refreshes. Tap water here in AU tends to be hit and miss
Anyway, until I can get my hands on some recommended flours (such as Petra Molino Quaglia Petra 6384 flour, really hard in Australia) I'll keep playing.
Some photos below of refreshes, and bread attempts. Feel free to provide any feedback / ideas.
Thanks for reply and suggestion, I will definitely try it.
A couple of notes:
I'll try a 1:2 and see how I go. Thanks again
Since early November I am trying to develop LM good enough to be used in baking Panettone. Last few weeks I started using Hanna pH probe. I maintain two LM, one is refreshed once a day and kept dry covered at 16-17 C. The other one is refreshed 2 times, 4 hours apart and kept at 27C after which is wrapped and stored overnight at 16-17 C. This has been standard routine every day. I also do a bath for both of them in the morning before refreshments.
Both of LM seem to have good leavening power, hot LM regularly triples in 4 hours. I am completely unsure what to do next?
Hot LM
Cold LM
Bake with it?
Why do you think that neither is fit for making panettone? Tripling in 4 hours is great, pH isn't bad - are there other qualities you're looking for that you're not seeing?
Testing out panettone is a great way to judge the health of your LM.
Interesting pH data on the "cold" LM - I also noticed with my own starter that free management yields a higher pH in the morning than, say water management. About 3.9 - 4.0 free and 3.8 - 3.9 in water. I've been reading lately about people feeding their PM 2:1 (starter:flour) with free management and having great results (and perhaps that pushes the pH into the desired 3.8-3.9 range). At the same time people feed 1:2 (starter:flour) with similarly great results.
The deeper I go, the more questions I have and the less set-in-stone these processes seem to be...
Thanks for the encouragement! What other qualities don't I see? I can't bring ph under 4 and cross section of LM doesn't look quite the same as some good examples displayed on TFL panettone forums. However, I am going to give it a try with Giorilli recipe.
I've been using water management for a few months now and it's a lot - messy, wasteful, time-consuming, and you never quite know the hydration of the dough. Going "by feel" is fine and works well enough, but I feel you lose a little bit of confidence when changing the hydration - e.g. it's difficult to change hydration by 1% from your last refreshment. So, free maintenance it is, for a while, and I've noticed a few things.
The most interesting is the pH right out of maintenance. I've been keeping my starter at 40% hydration and with a 360W - 380W Manitoba flour, it's rock-solid. The pH after about 24hrs at 18C is always over 4.0. Today, it was 4.12, and that's after a refreshment of 1:0.7! (yes, more starter than flour - I'm just experimenting).
With such a stiff dough that's kept for extended periods in the cold, I like to warm the yeast up in the morning after maintenance, so I do a hot 38C bagnetto for 20 - 30 minutes (no sugar, just to wake up yeasts). Even with the lower feeding ratios, the starter still floats within about 10 minutes. The most interesting part, however, is the pH right after the bagnetto - it drops like a rock. Today, the PH after bagnetto was 3.91!
Did the bagnetto really drop the pH by 0.21 in 30 minutes? No idea, but my instinct tells me that's unlikely. Things slow down at low hydrations and the pH meter seems to have a harder time getting accurate readings as the dough gets stiffer. My guess is that the heat from the bagnetto did of course cause reactions in the yeast and bacteria in the starter, but also softened the LM so that the pH meter was able to get a better reading.
I've used this free-management LM in one bake so far and I'm pretty happy with the results. The primo pH was interesting as well. I used an autolyse of the flour, water, and sugar this time around and closed the primo in 30 minutes. Honestly I could've probably closed it much faster but ran into two issues
1) my butter was just a little too cold, requiring more mixing to heat it up
2) I had a hell of a time incorporating the LM after the autolyse. I probably mixed for an additional 5-10 minutes to get the LM mixed in, and that didn't even work. My primo wound up with this ugly, pimply appearance because the LM crumbled into tiny fragments that never got absorbed. Maybe next time I can reserve some water from the autolyse and use that to soften the LM before adding it. Open to suggestions...
The pH of the primo after it tripled was....I'm not sure 🤣. I have two samples - the bulk of the dough in one container and the spy in a 250ml beaker. pH from the dough in the beaker was about 4.9. Thrilled with that, I checked the bulk dough and it was 4.8. Wondering why there was a discrepancy, I recalibrated and tested 2 or 3 more times. The "spy" dough was always around 4.9 and the bulk dough varied between 4.5 and 4.8. Kind of stumped on this one. The primo did seem like it was missing that soury note I've grown so used to, so I do believe the pH was higher than normal. My intention was to test the effect of the autolyse on primo acidification but the mixing issues I mentioned kind of muddied the data. Still, closing it in 30 minutes is better than my usual 45 or so.
Here are some pictures from the bake.
First refresh 1:2:0.43 after 6 hours at 28C
Second refreshment 1:1:0.45 after 4hrs at 28C. I've gotten a bit more comfortable with the LM management in general. This refreshment landed at a high pH and did not triple - but look at it and tell me it's not ready! This stiff dough has a hard time tripling at lower hydrations and I'm not 100% confident in the pH reading anyway, so proceeded with the primo.
Second dough mixed. I never get tired of seeing the inclusions held on by an almost completely transparent, paper-thin layer of dough. Used EIDB's recipe as usual and this second dough absolutely devoured the butter. I probably could've added more and given the dough was in good shape, I did add the bassinage water this time around.
The final product. As you can see, there's some detachment on the right side. I had some mixing issues this time around, so want to work on that and try again before trying to determine what caused it.
Best tasting panettone with the best texture, so far. This also convinces me that the primo pH was a bit higher than normal.
And to give you a sense of just how stiff the starter is, here it is just mixed. I actually increased the hydration to 42%, but the LM is very thirsty and the extra 2% hydration doesn't seem to have softened it at all
Here's what it usually looks like after. This is from a different refreshment but they all look similar
Perhaps I am shifting it too far in the other direction, but the point of all of this is just to try things and see what happens!
I see you've gone down the super-stiff route. I must admit I feel slightly uncomfortable seeing the LM made quite so stiff. Before it was trendy I tried such moves, but it wasn't for me, I associate excessive stiffness with the "too lactic" problem but here it has worked great for you.
Stiffer = more oxidative, which is good and desired but can cause problems in excess such as those you note, like problems incorporating the LM and longer mixing times. Surely when it's that stiff, it doesn't actually triple?
Nice pictures, and with shots like those, I think you should be blogging about your bakes! With such a great panettone, where do you go from here?
Well done!
Michael
Thanks, Michael!
Yeah, I'm keeping the LM very stiff at the moment. The goal is just to keep it "free" out of convenience and I'm trying to find the right hydration. Very low hydrations seem to slow things down quite a bit and while I try not to live and die by the pH meter, I do feel that the 3.8 - 3.9 range after maintenance is quite important.
I like pairing the free maintenance with the hot bagnetto - there's a noticeable change in the starter in just those 30 minutes. The flattened LM swells considerably, I can hear it bubbling from across the room sometimes, and for my own sanity, the pH after the bath is always in the 3.8 - 3.9 range I'm looking for. I also think the initial 1:2 warm refreshment on production days dilutes the built-up acidity from the night's rest. I have tried free maintenance in the past without the bagnetto and with more typical 1:1 warm refreshments and had pretty bad results.
You're right though, the LM doesn't triple. I think this is where some judgment/experience comes in. I know I'm keeping my LM in conditions that promote acetic acid production and I get a lot of other good signals that the LM is healthy, or at least not too lactic. In light of that, and the fact that I'm using a very strong Manitoba flour at a very low hydration, makes me not worry so much about the LM not tripling. In fact I think the yeasts must be very strong to even double a dough this stiff.
Interesting that you associate the stiff LM with a high lactic load. In fact, I'm managing it this way for the opposite reason - my understanding is that oxygen availability with the free method, along with the cold maintenance temps and low hydration, would balance more towards acetic.
I will definitely start blogging more - I think that's probably a better place for content like this anyway. I feel like this is just the beginning though. I can finally make panettone, but there's so much more to learn. I want more control over the process in general so that there's not so much stress and finger-crossing each bake. And very soon, I'd like to get the LM off of the expensive Italian flour. I agree with the sentiment of Debra's comment at the beginning of this thread that I shouldn't need expensive mail-order flour to maintain my starter. Hopefully with some more experience now I can make this all work with KA Bread Flour or something similar.
Bravo, great looking panettone! I read through many of your posts here on TFL that you wrote about your quest to panettone land and I am happy to see that some of those efforts resulted with a great success!
Thanks! I'm glad you've had some success recently as well!