Community Bake - Rye Bread

So, post got nuked,  Probably just as well. :)

Bottom line, 1 of 3 breads intended for my in-law parents was a bust.  I spaced the dried yeast intended for the final dough, so I depended on a longer maturation than expected.  That, and I spaced in using rye malt flour (active) instead of an inactive malt or beet syrup.  So, the two together, I'm pretty sure (I baked it out), means starch attack and degradation of the pentosans and it will be a screwed up mess.  Not satisfied, I started another Schwarzer Hamster from "Marlene." aka "Marla," with her version 2.0.  I loved her 1.0 and got good results (posted elsewhere) so I'm hoping for improvement.

So, so far. 2 out of 3 loaves baked, for my wife to take up to her parents.  Brotdoc's Alpenroggenbrot II, and Stanley Ginsberg's Franconian "Crusty Boule."  Because my in-laws are deep in their 80's, I wetted the crusts well and wrapped them in linen.  Soft teeth.  Here they are:

Now, can I ask a favor guys?  Can you diagnose what's going on with these massive chasms, when what I'm looking for is that beautiful, finer weaving over the loaf as shown here by many, and as I myself have done in the past - for the life of me, I can't figure out what's going on.  These valleys are ugly to me.  For comparison's sake, an earlier bake.  Not that it's stellar, but it's closer: 

Diagnoses?  Underproofing?

Hey Rob, thanks.  This time came out closer to what I'm looking for.  I think I was maybe simply underproofed last time:

The two ways I've learned, I find pretty cool.  After bulk folding up and forming a boule - very lightly, then directly just rolling into a long sausage, for going into the banneton seam-down.  No further shaping from boule into batard, no attempt to tighten a "skin," no real care for the seams being tightly closed.  This time, I worked quickly, and was content to let the seam just be a fault line down the length of the dough.

I let it proof farther into crack lengths and depths than I did previously.  And a good deal more obvious swelling.  I'm wondering if my starter was kind of weak last time - I had to draw my "chef"/Anstellgut off earlier, when it was younger, and I'm wondering if my fermentation run was just weak all along,  When the time came, not experienced enough, seeing (smaller) cracks on the surface, I tossed it in, when my better instincts knew it wasn't ready.

The other way I've learned they proof is as you describe, yep, often smoothing on an additional light dusting of flour during proof to encourage cracks.  But instead of flippiing it over, which would obviously defeat the purpose, they "throw" the loaf onto the peel with a decisive but balanced flick of the wrist.  I'm getting it, and it's fun.

Comparative Schwarzhamster.  Not sure if the crumb shot shows it but it's grossly gummy, inedible.  You can also see the sunken "valley" on top of the loaf.  There were others.  I think the use of active rye malt, and the forgetting dry yeast forcing the sourdough to do all the leaving - taking a long time - really jacked the pentosans and the network basically imploded.

The Schwarzhamsterbrot at top looks promising.  Different recipe, and I should have realized my tin optimally uses more dough, so the form factor is wrong.  Still, I think it should be tasty.

Scorched Crust Sour Rye - Gersterbrot (Germany)

The Rye Baker by Stanley Ginsberg

Original blog post

My blog about this entry for the Community bake can be found here.

Paul

Okay, so some of you may not have seen my post in the Introductions Thread, but hi, I am David, from Paradise, California! LOL!

I am thrilled to see all of these Recipes for so many different kinds of Breads, Holy Cow! I love Rye and have been just recently getting back into Rye Breads, after doing so many experimental types of French Breads and Sandwich Roll Recipes!

Inspired by Econprof's earlier post, I also tried the Sweet Limpa recipe from The Rye Baker. This is a relatively low hydration bread (58% hydration of which 47% is whole milk), but with a generous dose of molasses (18% on flour; I used sugar beet syrup), and a mix of caraway, fennel, anise and coriander to add spice. It makes a very stiff dough, risen with yeast in less than 90 minutes total fermentation time. During shaping the dough was so stiff that I had a hard time getting a smoothly formed surface, manifesting in some cracks in the final loaf (fortunately the inside melded together OK). The bake is relatively low temperature (200C), I had to increase the time vs the books recipe to fully bake (didn't "sound right" and too-low internal temp).

Perhaps it is not a surprise that with all the milk, butter, sugar and spices the end result has a very nice flavor! However the crumb is not only dense, it is also a bit on the dry side texturally - fine when toasted a bit, but would prefer more moistness when eaten plain.

While I had the Rye Baker open, the recipe on the next page for Rye Raisin Scones caught me eye, so I tried that one as well. This one is also a short-fermenting straight dough, 52% rye meal (I used coarse schrot) and 48% bread flour, so it just fits into the CB criteria. With 45% water and 30% milk this made a very wet dough, almost a batter; aside from raisins there is no other sweetener. The final scone has a lot of "crunchy" texture from the rye, but to my taste it lacks sweetness. Thinking about trying it again with a first scald step for the rye meal, or perhaps using boiled whole rye brewers malt as the "filler," to give it some more malty rye character. But as-is a bit of blackberry jam works wonders!

I don’t think anybody has posted a Finnish ring bread, so here’s one I made yesterday. It’s from The Rye Baker book. There is a similar looking bread on The Rye Baker website ( http://theryebaker.com/halme-bakerys-ring-rye-ruisreikaleipa-finland/ ), but it is slightly different because it uses instant yeast as well as sourdough. 

Mine looks kind of funny because I didn’t flour the dough (used water to keep the dough from sticking). I don’t know about the flavor or crumb yet because it is still in its resting period. 

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this time printed recipe x 1.8 (instead of 1.5) and I found the sweet spot for my pan (holds 2 kilo water) and what a easy recipe after getting the maths done.  It is very satisfying to match the 1500g dough to the pan.  I went outside to fetch wood near the end of the bake and drooled and danced my way back to the kitchen, no kidding.  The aromas were so lovely.

Overnight Prefermint: 270g rye #960, 180g rye sourdough starter, 360g water, 19g salt.

Dough: 360g rye #960 1.5 Tbs crushed coriander or bread spice, 13g orange zest, boiling 270g hot water.

 Bake covered 40 min, uncovered for another 20 min.  Oven temp  230°C first 20 minutes then reduce to 210° and 200°C.   Note: subbed out 100g rye in preferment for wheat all purpose flour. (To get a little more tang.)

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I do not have lot of experience with artisan bread and have never used 50% rye, so I decided to use Eric’s recipe that’s posted here for the community bake. I am also brand spanking new to sourdough, so I used the yeast version of this recipe (I did make my first ever sourdough starter last night using the “pineapple juice solution.” If it doesn’t work, I’ll toss it and order some online.)

I just joined TFL a week ago, and I am amazed and impressed at such knowledge and talent here! I check this community bake topic daily just to see what’s been added and I am blown away. I have read every comment. I was a little timid to post this given I didn’t come up with something new to offer, but I’m a beginner artisan baker, so I decided what the heck. I am pretty pleased with my simple beginner loaf, but I know it's not perfect (but oh my, the taste is fantastic with the seeds, orange peel, and molasses!), and I do have so many questions that I could not find answers to.

First, Eric said he used “very strong bread flour.” I only had regular KA bread flour, so I added 1.5 tsp of vital wheat gluten (thinking that would create “very strong” bread flour. I couldn't find anything on how to "make" very strong bread flour. My house can be pretty cool in the winter, like 68 and less, but I had one spot that’s 70-72, so that’s where I did the proofing. Overnight it rose quite a bit more than I expected, but not too crazy. This morning, I shaped my loaf and put it seam-side up in a linen-lined bowl.

I know I should watch the dough, not the clock. But Eric’s time in the proofing basket was 1-1.5 hours. So I set my timer for 30 minutes to check on the dough and also preheat the oven. Look what I found after 30 minutes! That looked way more proofed than the video. It looked nothing like Eric’s basket-proofed dough. I stuck my floured finger in it and the dent did not rebound — and my oven had only just started to preheat. I knew it would take at least 30 minutes, so I stuck the dough in the fridge. Did my dough rise so quickly because I added the vital wheat gluten?  Is the finger poke test even appropriate for this 50% rye dough? Does it look over-proofed? And if so, was putting in the fridge to retard further rising the right call? 

(After only 30 minutes)

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I made a parchment sling because I don’t have fancy oven gloves and I tend to burn myself under far less dangerous circumstances. I think I didn’t slash deep enough (the dough was in the hot DO when I slashed, but without the fancy gloves, the heat from the oven was burning my hands. (I immediately ordered the gloves from Amazon, so I’ll be prepared next time!) That brings me to the question:  how deep to slash? I used a curved lame. Is that the best choice for this kind of bread? 

Other than adding the vital wheat gluten, I followed the recipe, measuring everything carefully by weight (except yeast and gluten flour were by volume). I think I watched the videos 6 times! I also used a thermometer with an air probe to monitor oven temp, so at least I know that was right. I took the loaf out at exactly 200 degrees F. And I cut into it after 1 hour, which is what Eric did in the video. I shouldn’t have cut into it that soon (I know better); it says "cool completely in the recipe," but I was following the video. 

I placed it cut side down on the cutting board to hopefully salvage things. Overall, I am happy. The loaf has a fabulous flavor. It doesn’t feel gummy or dense, but it looks denser/tighter (fewer holes) than Eric’s and others posted here. Which makes me wonder if it was not on the verge of over-proof after all (or even under) and I should have not refrigerated while the oven pre-heated?

Thank you in advance for any feedback, critique, and tips! 

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Made Stan's recipe for the first time last week.  Amazing flavor, slightly sweet, malty and a nice subtle tang of sour.  I used whole rye since I grind my own berries.  I also made my own rye malt a few months ago.  I spend a week making my own rye starter, then assembled the bread as outlined (first day am, then pm add, then day 2 morning assembling, rising and baking that afternoon after a 3 1/2 hour rise.  Fabulous, will make again.  The only other change is to shorted the bake time by 5 minutes and to double the recipe next time to get two loaves!  Very worth bread, thanks Stan and your Rye Baker book!!

Nick

4th rye bake overall.  3rd one submitted to the CB. 2nd one made with all home-milled rye.  1st with a scald.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69889/84th-bake-020422-denisas-100-rye-take-4

This one hit the spot!

The previous one with "Vitamixed" flour seemed like the larger particles (the Vitamix does not make uniform particle sizes, some are powdery, some are gritty) did not get fully hydrated/softened. So I tried a scald, and let it soak/cool for 3 hours.

This came out moist and sweet.

There are so many inspiring rye breads here, and I'm accumulating lots of bookmarks for future bakes.   It is hard to keep up.

I attempted the Westaphalia Pumpernickel from the breadandginger.com site.  This is documented in more detail in my blog [HERE].  My oven isn't working right now, so this long slow pumpernickel bake seemed like it would be a good candidate for the the multi-cooker, which I'm comfortable running overnight.  It reminded me somewhat of the Icelandic Lava Bread posted above by Abe.  It seems promising so far, but I will wait a couple of days before slicing into it.

Westfalen-Kruste – Westphalia-Crust, by Brotdoc (Björn Hollsteiner).  I really like these rounds with the seams proofed down and opened in the oven.  Still working on technique to get many, narrower cracks, which I find beautiful. 

Followed his formula exactly, with the exception that for the Aromastück he calls for "mashing" the rye porridge at 65 C for 2 hours, I mashed slightly higher (for a higher a-amylase activity) for 4 hours  as it's not easy for me to stir once the step starts its hot rest (a water bath, for me).  At the end of the step I also brought the Aromastück to 71 C and maintained it for 30 minutes, just to ensure the amylases were disactivated and the a-amylase and b-amylases were "set" as they "mashed."  He doesn't do such a step.  Probably unnecessary, just a holdover from brewing days.

4th submisson. Pretty much same as previous.  Levain was left to ferment 9 hours instead of 8, and got a better rise during final proof.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69937/85th-bake-02082022-denisas-100-rye-take-5

Lithuanian rye :https://solnce-pek.livejournal.com/11724.html  

Here are my notes on this bread:

The first is that 3 days after baking , the flavor comes out and it tastes like cherries. 

all flour is wholegrain rye except where noted as red and white rye and wheat. Red rye is fermented rye malt and if you don't have it, you can use crystal malt--but it is definitely not the same. White malt is diastatically active malted rye and as I note, you can use wholegrain rye instead. 

Notes on Lithuanian

Levain

20g rye starter

100g water

100g rye

Mix and ferment for 10-12 hours at 84 degrees F

Scald

220g rye flour

10g caraway

23g rye malt(red)

330 g water, boiling

10g white rye or wholegrain rye.

Pour boiling water over 220g rye, 22g red malt and 10g ground caraway.

Stir like a crazy person. When it reaches 150degrees F, stir in 10g white malt.

If it is lower than 140, make sure you heat it up to 150 before adding white malt.

Over 140 degrees F is to denature sticky enzyme.

(Heat up method)Or put everything in a pan and heat up to 150 F and add white malt.

Then in either case hold at 150 degrees F for at least 2 hours. It will turn sweet and slacker, but it is very thick.

Cool scald to 90 degrees F before proceeding.

Preferment:

Measure out 550g of cooled scald and add to it 200g of Levain or use all of 220 g .

Hold at 80+ degrees F for 12 hours or 8 hours at 85 degrees F. It will get soft and swell.

Final Mix

All preferment

120g wheat flour(I used whole grain wheat)

150g of rye flour

1 tablespoon sugar

1 tablespoon honey or sorghum syrup

8g salt

Knead final dough by hand and it should be like soft , warm clay, not very sticky. Squeeze the dough through your hands.

Form and reform until it feels right hydration that you can form it later.

If not, add flour or water so it is just right texture. I probably spend 5-10 minutes until it feels good.Keep warm at 84 degrees F for 2 hours and it doubles but not falling apart.

Holes on the surface.  Then wet moulding of dough and smooth, no seams anywhere. Not even on the bottom. Keep warm for 30 minutes and when pinholes appear on the surface—8 or 10 holes-coat with paste made of 25g leftover dough and 25g water and throw in hot oven.  I use 500 degrees F with convection on a pizza stone--uncovered. Bake for 10 minutes at 500 degrees F, then open oven and cool it down to 450 or so for another 40 minutes.  Check for doneness and spray with water and leave in 3 minutes . Take out and coat with cooked mix of 5g starch and 150g water that you made before and cooled down. I use potato starch.