In the end salt draws water and slows down fermentation (inhibits in larger quantities). Usually it's recommended to add salt a little time into mixing was added, so that the flour and yeasts have a moment to hydrate properly.
The only circumstance I have ever seen in which salt is added to the levain is Jeff Hammelman's suggestion as a way to slow down runaway fermentation in overly warm conditions (e.g., baking in Darwin, Australia as a recent post here described). Otherwise, salt is, in my experience and booklearning, never added to a levain. The currently fashionable artisan baking processes leave it out of the autolytic flour+water mixture (a la Prof Clavel) and call for adding it at final dough mixing time,with a little water withheld from the autolyse (a la Chad Robertson).
I don't put it in the levain. But as long as I do the amount of salt in the recipe, mixing it with the flour for bulk fermentation has always been fine in my (admittedly limited) experience, I haven't waited and the fermentation seems to get going fine.
If you’re just beginning, I honestly wouldn’t take the trouble. You can get great bread without the autolyse step. I’ve never noticed it making any difference.
Maybe I was doing it wrong at the start, as I had multiple problems: incorrect hydration, no autolyse, no banneton, poor shaping technique. But for me when I added the autolyse step -- just 30 minutes the first time was enough to make a massive difference -- it seemed to help me so much with being able to develop the dough. I was finally able to do slap and fold, fold, knead, whatever I wanted without the dough being super sticky and working it's way up my knuckles, and me never being able to even pull a hand away from the dough without contorting the entire loaf into a string of taffy.
I'm not skipping autolyse. Just wondering whether to include the salt when mixing in the levain with the dough (which happens after autolyse per my understanding).
Yeah you've got the process right: have the levain fermenting, toward the end of that start your autolyse. When both of those are done, mix the levain with the autolyse. At that point you can optionally add the salt, or wait a bit (like the 30 minutes in the fullproofbaking recipe I linked). I wasn't sure how autolyse came up, but decided to respond to it since that step helped me so much.
The directions for a bread machine say to put the salt over in the corner so it is incorporated last. So why not just mix in the leaven fully then add the salt and mix some more. Even if you only fold in the leaven and then add the salt they wouldn't be in direct contact. The salt will tighten the gluten after it is worked in so use that as a tool.
To help dissolves the salt even just a little bit will help. Some water should be held back most of the time and added in stages until the dough feels right.
I'm with @jcope on this. Don't sweat the small stuff. I've added salt to the flour before autolyse, with levain after autolyse and after main mix with water held back and damned if I can tell the difference even though each batch of dough exhibits different dynamics. The bread invariably comes out great. I'd go with a recipe's suggested procedure and make your own call somewhere downstream on the effectiveness of the various salt addition strategies.
I always mix the salt, levain, and autolyse together in one step. I spread out the autolyse on the counter, spread the levain out on top, dimple it in with my fingertips, fold the dough over, sprinkle the dry salt on top, fold that over, and start kneading.
At first the dough will want to sort of peel apart and thin little sheets will stick to the bench. I use a dough scraper to bring it back together and keep going. You will also feel the grittiness of the salt (especially if you use the diamond kosher that I use, with the giant flakes.) It takes 3 minutes of kneading to fully incorporate the salt and levain. I knead it for another 2 or 3 minutes to finish gluten development. (I want the gluten developed all the way because I'm using 100% whole wheat flour and the gluten needs strength.) If the dough is higher hydration I switch to stretch and fold for the final few minutes of the knead.
I really really really dislike adding water to dough, so I much prefer adding the salt dry and letting it dissolve during the knead. I learned this method from the Ellie's Everyday channel on youtube, which is very useful for folks like me who are baking sourdough with 100% fresh-milled flour. That channel is where I first understood the importance of the autolyse and just got a feel for the dough and how it should be.
One thing about salt and the autolyse: I think if you're using whole wheat flour it's important to keep the salt out of the autolyse so that the water is available to hydrate the bran. I can't speak to white flour because I've never used it in bread baking: (I basically got a mill and started making bread just so I could make whole wheat breads.)
In the end salt draws water and slows down fermentation (inhibits in larger quantities). Usually it's recommended to add salt a little time into mixing was added, so that the flour and yeasts have a moment to hydrate properly.
So do you reserve some of the water in the recipe to add the salt separately?
The only circumstance I have ever seen in which salt is added to the levain is Jeff Hammelman's suggestion as a way to slow down runaway fermentation in overly warm conditions (e.g., baking in Darwin, Australia as a recent post here described). Otherwise, salt is, in my experience and booklearning, never added to a levain. The currently fashionable artisan baking processes leave it out of the autolytic flour+water mixture (a la Prof Clavel) and call for adding it at final dough mixing time,with a little water withheld from the autolyse (a la Chad Robertson).
Tom
So mix the levain into the dough, wait a little, and then mix in the salt?
This fullproofbaking recipe from a past community bake suggests doing just that:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61572/community-bake-featuring-kristen-fullproofbaking
I'll give the delay a try at some point
I don't put it in the levain. But as long as I do the amount of salt in the recipe, mixing it with the flour for bulk fermentation has always been fine in my (admittedly limited) experience, I haven't waited and the fermentation seems to get going fine.
If you’re just beginning, I honestly wouldn’t take the trouble. You can get great bread without the autolyse step. I’ve never noticed it making any difference.
Maybe I was doing it wrong at the start, as I had multiple problems: incorrect hydration, no autolyse, no banneton, poor shaping technique. But for me when I added the autolyse step -- just 30 minutes the first time was enough to make a massive difference -- it seemed to help me so much with being able to develop the dough. I was finally able to do slap and fold, fold, knead, whatever I wanted without the dough being super sticky and working it's way up my knuckles, and me never being able to even pull a hand away from the dough without contorting the entire loaf into a string of taffy.
I'm a bit confused about the responses here.
I'm not skipping autolyse. Just wondering whether to include the salt when mixing in the levain with the dough (which happens after autolyse per my understanding).
Yeah you've got the process right: have the levain fermenting, toward the end of that start your autolyse. When both of those are done, mix the levain with the autolyse. At that point you can optionally add the salt, or wait a bit (like the 30 minutes in the fullproofbaking recipe I linked). I wasn't sure how autolyse came up, but decided to respond to it since that step helped me so much.
The directions for a bread machine say to put the salt over in the corner so it is incorporated last. So why not just mix in the leaven fully then add the salt and mix some more. Even if you only fold in the leaven and then add the salt they wouldn't be in direct contact. The salt will tighten the gluten after it is worked in so use that as a tool.
But you need water to mix in the salt right? And water to mix in the levain. So you reserve some water for both of those stages then?
To help dissolves the salt even just a little bit will help. Some water should be held back most of the time and added in stages until the dough feels right.
Thank you!
Can you describe what that feeling is? :)
A best guess ;)
I'm with @jcope on this. Don't sweat the small stuff. I've added salt to the flour before autolyse, with levain after autolyse and after main mix with water held back and damned if I can tell the difference even though each batch of dough exhibits different dynamics. The bread invariably comes out great. I'd go with a recipe's suggested procedure and make your own call somewhere downstream on the effectiveness of the various salt addition strategies.
Good luck,
Phil
I always mix the salt, levain, and autolyse together in one step. I spread out the autolyse on the counter, spread the levain out on top, dimple it in with my fingertips, fold the dough over, sprinkle the dry salt on top, fold that over, and start kneading.
At first the dough will want to sort of peel apart and thin little sheets will stick to the bench. I use a dough scraper to bring it back together and keep going. You will also feel the grittiness of the salt (especially if you use the diamond kosher that I use, with the giant flakes.) It takes 3 minutes of kneading to fully incorporate the salt and levain. I knead it for another 2 or 3 minutes to finish gluten development. (I want the gluten developed all the way because I'm using 100% whole wheat flour and the gluten needs strength.) If the dough is higher hydration I switch to stretch and fold for the final few minutes of the knead.
I really really really dislike adding water to dough, so I much prefer adding the salt dry and letting it dissolve during the knead. I learned this method from the Ellie's Everyday channel on youtube, which is very useful for folks like me who are baking sourdough with 100% fresh-milled flour. That channel is where I first understood the importance of the autolyse and just got a feel for the dough and how it should be.
One thing about salt and the autolyse: I think if you're using whole wheat flour it's important to keep the salt out of the autolyse so that the water is available to hydrate the bran. I can't speak to white flour because I've never used it in bread baking: (I basically got a mill and started making bread just so I could make whole wheat breads.)