Hello,
I have tried two sourdough recipes and each time the dough failed to double its size during the bulk fermentation stage. Why? Could it be because I am using a small immersion blender to mix the ingredients of my starter? I use the blender because I have arthritis. Is this a too vigorous mixing method that is the cause of my problem? The stater does mature, however, and I have use it for the fore mentioned recipes. I use bread flour for my starter.
Thanks in advance.
How long/strongly do you blend it? Because blending generates heat, it might kill some yeasts.
No more than a couple of minutes for 120g starter. I did not think it was too heated to kill some yeasts.
I use an immersion blender (stick blender). I can’t imagine using it long enough to overheat the yeast. I haven’t tried it, but I don’t think it is possible. You’d probably burn up the blender first.
While yeasted recipes are supposed to double before shaping most sourdough recipes without yeast do not call for doubling. A thirty to fifty percent rise is the signal to shape and proof. Don't expect it to double during the proofing stage either.
The dough appeared to increase in size slightly but it had no strength; Almost flat as a pancake. So It could not be formed into a ball.
I have used an immersion blender a number of time to mix the levain into the water. I like the results.
Assuming the temperature is not super cool, the first step to troubleshooting your BF problem is to verify that the starter is healthy and active. Tell us everything you can about your starter. Closeup pictures are always good.
I know the starter is fine because It passed the floating test, there were lots of small bubbles throughout and it had doubled in size. I used it to initiate the levain and the latter also have lots of bubbles and doubled in size. I used supermarket bread flour - maybe this might be the problem. Temperature was a constant 75F.
I used a KItchenAid mixer to mix the dough but only for about 3 minutes. Is this the problem?
Song17, I think us Internet-bread-detectives need a lot more info to use as clues to come up with possible reasons for your bulk ferment situation.
If you have time, and still want to pursue this, could you please post your complete recipe/formula along with procedures? Be as specific as you can, especially describing the ingredients.
It sounds like you have baked bread before, but the two times you've tried sourdough have not worked out. So... some piece of information is missing.
It could be timing, wrong ingredients (bleached flour = bad, Australian flour = very different), too young of a starter, (how old is your starter?, did you make it yourself, or buy some?), chlorinated tap water, add ins, how much salt, all that.
Sometimes, even knowing the city and country leads to other information that people take for granted, and when that information comes forth, the answer is found. For example, a few people in Australia came to the web site, who were using basic flour without the necessary malt flour or amylase that needs to be added in for Australia, because the millers don't automatically put it in.
All that info is needed for intelligent guesses, in order to come up with possibile solitions for you to try. Without the complete story, there are only blind guesses.
I followed precisely the recipes from Sarah Owens’ book ‘Sourdough. Recipes for rustic bread...’ called the Friendship Loaf, and another recipe from the perfectloaf website. Sarah’s recipe includes
Levain - 25g 100% hydration starter, 70g water , 70g bread flour
Dough - 165g levain, 640g water, 615g bread flour, 80g medium rye flour (substituted by 40g all purpose, 49 g whole wheat flour), 80g whole wheat flour, 25 buckwheat flour, and 16g fine sea salt.
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/simple-weekday-sourdough-bread/
I used grocery store bought flour for both starter and dough. Tap water left overnight was used. I live in Winnipeg, Canada.
In both cases I made sure the starter and levain were mature, used KitchenAid at low speed to mix the ingredients (arthritis problem), and temperature of 75F.
I starter my own starter and it is only a month old.
I don't have that particular book. But I have seen several recipes for "Friendship starter" and "Friendship bread" and they were not true sourdough, or what people on this web site would consider "standard" sourdough. So, of all these questions, #6 below might be the one that reveals what went wrong. But, the other questions are directly related to the experiences of first-time sourdough bakers too.
please excuse if these questions are too basic, but these situations have popped up before.
And, after all, it still may be your immersion/stick blender that killed the yeast cells by chopping them up, not by heat. Maybe one of our micro-biologists can chime in on that. You don't have to kill all of them, but if most are killed, that would affect the levain.
1. From the package of the bread flour, what are its ingredients? (Looking to see if it had malted flour, or at least amalyse added.) What is the brand name, and any other specific identifiers? Bleached or unbleached? Bromated or unbromated?
2. in what sort of container was the water left out? Both shape and composition of material. Was it lidded/unlidded, covered/uncovered? Looking to see it was wide and open, not sealed, not a narrow-necked bottle. An open, but narrow necked bottle might not out-gas enough chlorine.
3. Does your house, or apartment, or apartment building, have what is called a "water conditioner" or a "water softener"? Those wreck havoc with bread. You'll likely need to use bottled spring water for bread if you have one of those.
4. Are you on well water, or municipal supplied water? If municipal, is the water known for high/strong/obvious chlorine content?
5. What is the composition material of the bowl or container in which you did the bulk ferment? (IE, stainless steel, glass, aluminum, plastic, glazed ceramic, unglazed ceramic, etc. ) Was it designed/intended for food, or was it designed/intended as a "storage" item?
6. Please describe how you started your starter. What went into it besides water and bread flour? From the day it first starts to double within 4 to 6 hours, a starter may still need at least another 2 weeks, and up to 4 weeks to _balance_ itself between lactic acid bacteria and wild yeast.
Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it as I am learning how to make sourdough bread successfully. I am intrigued by what you said about Friendship loaf as not true sourdough. I want to learn more on what is a genuine sourdough. Here are answers to your questions
1. Packages of flour (bread, whole wheat or all-purpose) said nothing except that they were milled from hard red spring wheat.
2. Water was in glass narrow neck milk bottle with lid placed on opening. It was left overnight
3. I only have tap water. I will be using store bought filtered water from now on.
4. Tap water comes from lake in eastern part of the province.
5. Use glass bowl for food purposes only.
6. I used the liquid starter recipe from the King Arthur website, which prescribed it to be ready after 7 days. If I don’t use it immediately, I leave it after the latest feeding for several hours at room temperature, then I put it in the fridge. Feeding it once a week.
4.
Song, I thought Dave would get back to you, but he must be out of pocket. I didn’t want to leave you hanging...
If your starter came from King Arthur, you have 100% sourdough bread. Not sure what Dave was thinking of.
"1. Packages of flour (bread, whole wheat or all-purpose) said nothing except that they were milled from hard red spring wheat."
Either that's a problem, or maybe you're not looking at the right place on the package. We're looking to see that the ingredients include "amylase" or "malted barley flour" or "malted wheat flour."
I'm also hopeful to hear from you what the package says about "bleached" versus "unbleached" and "bromated" versus "unbromated".
I realize labeling regulations are different in Canada than in the US. So if the package says none of those things (bleached/unbleached/bromated/unbromated) then all the more reason to carefully read the official "Ingredient list" as that will give us clues.
Maybe someone from Canada can chime in (SheGar? Floyd?) as to how to find it. In the U.S. the official ingredients list is located underneath the official "Nutrition Info" box. Please list all the ingredients when you find it, if indeed there is more than just "wheat flour."
"Whole wheat flour" does not need malted flour or amlyase, but bread flour, and AP flour does. But, it can be added in separately if it is not there.
"2. Water was in glass narrow neck milk bottle with lid placed on opening. It was left overnight "
if your water is chlorinated, it likely should be in a pitcher, not a narrow necked bottle, left open, or covered with something that is permeable, like a paper towel, or a thin cloth.
"3. I only have tap water. I will be using store bought filtered water from now on."
Actually bottled "filtered" water is not as good as bottled "spring" water, in my opinion. Bottled "filtered" water is often missing some good minerals. But lake water that comes through your municipal water supply should be fine as long as you let the chlorine "out-gas" for an hour or so.
Also, I think you may not undertand what a "water conditioner" or a "water softener" is. That device can be hidden from a tenant. It is hooked into the water pipes in the house or building, usually in the basement or in the garage. If you are a home-owner, you would/should know. If you are a renter, then perhaps you can ask the landlord. With lake-water, you likely do not have one. (They are used mainly for well water, or if the municipal water company gets their water from wells.) And, since your starter and levain are getting bubbly, then it's likely not a problem, but it is a good thing to know for a serious baker.
"4. Tap water comes from lake in eastern part of the province."
So far, so good. But what about the chlorine? Can you taste or smell it? What do folks generally say about your local water supply, and your local water company? Is it known for having a little chlorine or a lot of chlorine?
"5. Use glass bowl for food purposes only."
Good.
"6. I used the liquid starter recipe from the King Arthur website, which prescribed it to be ready after 7 days. If I don’t use it immediately, I leave it after the latest feeding for several hours at room temperature, then I put it in the fridge. Feeding it once a week."
Okay. I understand that you used KA's recipe. But what _exactly_ did you feed it? Bread flour, AP flour, or whole wheat flour? And anything else?
I also think KA's estimate of 7 days from creating/starting your starter is too optimistic. (Note to Dan: she did not purchase starter from KA, just used their recipe for creating one from scratch.)
When starting a starter from scratch, it can take something like 2 to 4 weeks of feeding daily at room temperature before it is ready to bake with, and maybe two months if you were putting it in the fridge after the first seven days.
--
So now I've narrowed my guesses down to four things (but still, if I haven't totally frustrated you, please try to find some of the additional details or answers above):
Guess 1. Your starter bubbled and floated, but it was still merely "juvenile" or "adolescent" and not "mature/balanced". If this is so, then keeping it at room temp, and feeding daily at 1:1:1, equal parts by weight: starter : water : flour, for another week would solve it if that is the problem. And be sure to discard. maybe using 30 grams each (starter, water, flour) each time.
if you tried to bake with your starter/levain exactly 7 days after you first mixed plain water and plain flour together, then this is the most likely situation... just not mature enough. If it was 7 days from the first time you mixed plain water and plain flour, and then you started putting it in the fridge, then this still is likely the problem.
there are people here much more expert than I in starting starters. But from what I gather, when you start by mixing plain water and plan flour from scratch, (meaning you did not buy a dehydrated culture, and did not buy/borrow a wet starter) you need to wait, and feed it daily for about two weeks counting from the day where it first starts bubbling. So if it takes 4 days to start bubbling, then you need to keep it at room temp and feed daily for 14 more days before baking with it.
That 14 days is not a fixed number. The starter experts can explain it better.
If you put it in the fridge, the "clock" stops, and the days in the fridge don't count.
Guess 2: You fed the starter whole wheat, but the white flour you used for the dough did not have amylase or malt. Or, perhaps it was bleached (we will be able to tell from the official ingredients list). If it is missing amylase/malt that can be remedied. If it is bleached or bromated, I'm not sure how to work around that -- you'd have to ask others.
Guess 3: The blender chopped up the yeast cells and killed them when you mixed the seed starter into the levain.
Guess 4: There could still be some unknown factors or missing information. Maybe the dough did rise 30%, which can be good for some sourdough recipes, and perhaps there was excess water that threw you off.
Dave, I will take all your recommendations and start anew. Hopefully, I will be more successful in making a basic sourdough bread.
I would like to thank everyone who commented on my post. Specifically, I like to thank Dave who have been a good teacher in educating me on the intricacies of making sourdough bread. I am very grateful.
I will report back in a few weeks to let you know if I am successful or not in my quest to make sourdough bread.