I have, for the last 3 years, been keeping a rye starter from a KAF Rye bread class somewhat alive but not sure I am doing the best for it.
I have religiously kept 1/3 by weight of the old starter and added back in 1/3 water 1/3 whole grain Rye {Hodgson Mills} and it rises somewhat in about 10 hours while on the counter. I keep this feeding going for 3 days then back in the fridge for a 1 week and repeat. I have tried 2 feedings per day with no noticeable difference in activity.
I just seems rather lethargic and very very stiff. Almost but not quite Peanut Butter stiff. It will fall off a spoon after about 10 seconds with much remaining on the spoon.
It would appear on various videos I have seen that the starter is much more fluid.
A month ago I ran out of the Whole grain rye flour and used some KAF White Rye and it was like I fed the starter some steroids. I used the same weights but now question if 100% hydration is correct for a rye starter or if I am being thrown off by using weight instead of volume. The starter was not as stiff as before.
The white rye is difficult to get in my area while the Hodgson Whole grain rye is almost always available at our local stores.
Does it raise bread?
When is the starter going back into the fridge? After a feeding? After the first peak?
How does the starter taste before and immediately after feeding? (Try to add enough flour and water so that it tastes like wet flour.)
most important... What temp is the starter?
I would use the most available rye flour to feed. The coarser the flour, the less it will rise so use other indicators to judge the starter. Aroma, sour/yeasty taste, viscosity, bubble size under the surface stuck on the container and shape of those bubbles.
Have you tried feeding mature starter a one to five ratio (starter to flour weight) after a one to one ratio? How long does it take to peak at 26°C? Stir down and let it peak again. Give it another 1to 5 feeding, naturally start out with about 10 to 20 g of starter.
One thing about rye starters, It cannot rise anymore 8 hours after the rye flour has been hydrated, the matrix falls apart. It may look peaked but be hollow under a domed surface. So judging a rye starter rise after 10 hrs can be tricky. After chilling it will not rise, be very stiff but can continue to ferment and produce gas, it just escapes. Letting the starter warm up will help evaluate aroma and if pungent, it needs feeding our using. It does sound like the starter could use some more water. Stir in enough to get a soft paste feel when feeding unless you want a firm starter like you describe. If not using the starter for baking you can store the firm starter for months without feeding, you just need to make sure it's healthy first.
Hope this info is helpful.
Thank you for taking the time on your detailed response.
I'll try to address these in order.
Does it raise bread? Yes but very slowly. I know it is not commercial yeast but very slow. I have yet to achieve any rise similar to any recipe I have seen. Great tasting but less than I "think" it should rise given that rye does not have a lot of gluten
When is the starter going back into the fridge? After a feeding? After the first peak? Usually, when I think it is about to peak.
How does the starter taste before and immediately after feeding? (Try to add enough flour and water so that it tastes like wet flour.) Never tasted it {wet dough phobia???}
most important... What temp is the starter? I try to maintain it at 78F when outside the fridge. I keep it in my proofing box which maintains +/- 1 F.
I would use the most available rye flour to feed. The coarser the flour, the less it will rise so use other indicators to judge the starter. Aroma, sour/yeasty taste, viscosity, bubble size under the surface stuck on the container and shape of those bubbles. The Hodgeson flour is very course, I'll look for something less course like the White Rye flour
Have you tried feeding mature starter a one to five ratio (starter to flour weight) after a one to one ratio? How long does it take to peak at 26°C? Stir down and let it peak again. Give it another 1to 5 feeding, naturally start out with about 10 to 20 g of starter. Never tried that ratio. I keep the starter fairly small so as to not waste flour but a few days before I bake I slowly increase the volume. I can/will certainly try this
One thing about rye starters, It cannot rise anymore 8 hours after the rye flour has been hydrated, the matrix falls apart. Never knew this. Great info. It may look peaked but be hollow under a domed surface. So judging a rye starter rise after 10 hrs can be tricky. After chilling it will not rise, be very stiff but can continue to ferment and produce gas, it just escapes. Letting the starter warm up will help evaluate aroma and if pungent, it needs feeding our using. It does sound like the starter could use some more water. Stir in enough to get a soft paste feel when feeding unless you want a firm starter like you describe. If not using the starter for baking you can store the firm starter for months without feeding, you just need to make sure it's healthy first. Thanks some very good tips here
Typically rye sour/starter is not 100% hydration but thicker: more like a biga - 60%-75% hydration. Should resemble mortar. At that hydration it will ripen at 70 degrees for 12-15 hrs. Fully ripe it should be slightly domed & pretty gassy underneath. Avoid Hodgson’s. Find a good medium rye.
The stuff is extremely absorbent. I usually use 125% hydration for my rye (whole grain) starter, otherwise it's kinda stiff.
Typical feed is 20% starter + 70% water + 100% flour. If it hasn't been too long since the last feed and conditions are right I would see a significant rise at the 6-8 hour mark with a dome. It's at this stage it goes back into the fridge for a week or two (or sometimes three). If it's been quite a while since the last feed and it's not so warm then we are looking at around 12 hours.
From this starter I build all my different types of levain. The starter is very resilient and doesn't seem to need as much TLC as wheat starters.
Hey Abe :)
Just for clarity, do you mean you would add 20g starter to 70g water and 100g flour?
I am a little confused (easy to confuse me!). For what it's worth I have over the last few years maintained a pure wholemeal rye starter at 1:1:1 and just refresh every couple of weeks or so. When I bake I usually do an overnight refresh just to liven it up a little.
Whilst in France last Autumn I had the pleasure of spending a morning in a lovely artisan bakery and was given a 'stiff' starter which is 1:1:2. this keeps much (much) longer in the fridge. When I bake with it I still do a refresh the night before.
Because the stiff starter seems to take a lot of neglect I may well continue it's use (by this I mean I gave some to my daughter and she ignored it for 9 weeks............. 2 feeds later and back in business!
Long time no see.
Same ratio. My starter feed is actually...
Only keep a very small amount of stiff rye starter as seed. Lasts ages in the fridge. Lovely tasting and springs relatively quickly to life. I allow it to feed and activate before refrigerating as I used to refrigerate earlier, thinking it would last longer, but found this dwindled the yeast population. Since my starter is seed only then re-feeding and always putting it back in the fridge soon after never gave it time to have a party. Then I tried refrigerating after longer activation and it still lasted a long time and kept the yeast population up. It really is minimal fuss.
From this little amount of starter i'll do all different sourdough pre-ferments. Flours, hydration etc. when it runs down to about 10g i'll re-feed. Don't keep so much at any one time that it takes too long before another feed. Don't build in excess. Minimum fuss.
After a feed
Typically rye sour/starter is not 100% hydration but thicker: more like a biga - 60%-75% hydration. Should resemble mortar. At that hydration it will ripen at 70 degrees for 12-15 hrs. Fully ripe it should be slightly domed & pretty gassy underneath. Avoid Hodgson’s. Find a good medium rye.
Thick stiff mortar is a good analogy for what I have. I'll try a medium rye for a while as I can see how the coarseness of my current Hodgson's might be an issue.
Thank you very much.
I knew a rye sour was typically around 70% hydration and my standard starter maintenance was done by following my instinct. Good to know it's pretty much exactly as you have just described.
Try this method. It's easy and it works a treat.
I use this UK brand. Very happy with it.
Maintenance is fed about one to five, starter to flour, water added to make a thick paste, like toothpaste, allowed to rise about one third to peak, when about 50% above the just mixed volume (hey, looks like Abe's above) then packed away into the fridge. I last fed it two months ago. To refresh, if ignored for a month or so, early the day before dough mixing, an even feeding of 1:1:1. Or slightly more at 1:2:2 then a one to five to make the levain overnight. Temps around 74°F. Bounces back every time. I can get quite a few levain builds off the chilled starter starting about 4 days after being chilled. I replenish or replace the starter when it gets below 10g.
A few one to five feedings should bring your rye starter back into shape. Let it peak before reducing and feeding again, save and use the weak discards in muffins or pancakes or in a yeasted bread.
For long time storage, I take a spoon of ripe starter, double the weight with water and add enough rye flour to make sticky crumbs, then press them into a ball and tuck into a safe back corner of the fridge with a good dusting of rye flour to keep it dry on the outside. Tighten the lid after a few days. Good until well... got one in there 3 yrs old.
I've got two nasty looking dependable rye starters, one made from raw sourkraut juice. :)
I do like rye starters. They're so minimal fuss and resilient. I have kept wheat starters in the past but they need much more TLC.
Tasty to-boot!
Would not have thought to leave it in the fridge for that long.
I think all the replies have given me enough to try. Seems some minor changes in when it is put back in the fridge and hydration and a less course Rye would make things go better.
Thanks to everyone who replied.
Hi Mini Oven.
I have a similar issue to Mike with a sluggish rye starter. Reading your advice (as always) is helpful, thanks. I wanted to clarify a couple of things you've written.
You say that when you take it out of the fridge you feed it 1:1:1 or even 1:2:2. So that is, for example, 20g starter, 20g flour and 20g water or even 20g of starter, 40g of flour, 40g water. Is my understanding correct? I am not feeding with these proportions when I first remove from the fridge (more like 1:3:2) and I think perhaps I'm not allowing enough activity to come out.
I have lots of sauerkraut juice around, wondering whether to have a play!
In the fridge, the yeast population can be down and very acid, pH is low. Adding water and flour raises the pH readings and the reduction in acid most likely excites the bacteria and yeast into action. They want to take advantage to increase their numbers.
Ive noticed I get the best reaction sooner from an abused starter if I start out with a small feeding and when that shows some action, follow it up with a moderate feeding (1:4. Or. 1:5). Reduce and Repeat the 1:4 feeding if needed. Let the starter tell you when it should be fed.
...with my acidic-smelling starter when it's been 'resting' a while. Thank you.
Bit the bullet, and ordered some more White Rye flour from KAF and "Arthur" {my starter}, seems very happy. Lots of bubbles, about doubles, so far, in 6 hours.
Tonight, Arthur will make a couple of Deli Rye loafs.
Thanks again to all who took the time to reply.