Hi:
I had great bakes with my starter through the summer and fall, when my ambient temps ranged 75-85F. The most consistent success came from "lower" hydration of 62-65%, and using 20% starter (that was at 100% hydration). Typical routine was an autolyse with starter for 30 minutes, add 1-2% salt, mix on low for 4-5 minutes, then first ferment for 2.5-3 hours with a stretch and fold every 30-45 minutes. Shape, final proof for 1 hour and into fridge for 8-16 hours, or, proof for 2-3 hours and bake. Flour choice didn't really matter, I used either KABF, organic simple truth APF from Ralph's (aka kroger), sometimes I'd mill 5-10% spelt or rye, etc. Loaf size would range 375-450g. The bread would taste great, though very mild with almost no sourness. I could create some sourness by proofing in my microwave with a glass of boiling water.
At the time, I struggled getting consistency and proper timing with higher hydration, lower starter amount, or larger loaf sizes (e.g. 500g+).. almost always resulted in dense bread, so I just stuck with what was working.
Now my ambient temps range 61-71F, with majority of the time spent in the mid to low 60s. Although I get pretty looking bread on the surface with dramatic ears, the crumb tends to be dense and the loaf heavy. I get horrible acid reflux if I eat this bread. Can someone offer me a couple starting points for time and starter %? I am hoping for advice like this: "try 10% for 12 hours in first ferment, then shape, proof for 4 hours and bake". Or "try 20% for 8 hours.." etc. I have tried a few variations without luck. Sadly, I do not speak dough, so unfortunately comments like "listen to the dough" or "it should seem alive" won't help :(
Here is how my starter behaves: in the warmer time, I would feed every 12 hours at a 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 ratio, and it would double in about 6-8 hours, and get bubbly on top by 10-12 hours, passing the float test; I could also feed 1:5:5 to 1:7:7 for a 24 hour levain that would give me mild sourness. With the cooler weather, I'm feeding 1:1:1, and the starter passes float test, does not collapse. Starter is fed with organic simple truth APF from Ralph's (aka Kroger). I think this flour may be from Central Milling.
Many thanks for reading and considering. If you would like pictures, please let me know what sort of "base recipe" I should try and I'll be happy to oblige.
Why not try a recipe that available. LIke Hamelman's Vermont SD or this iteration which varies only slightly from his...
http://www.wildyeastblog.com/my-new-favorite-sourdough/
Or just try using slightly lower levain %age, like 17% or something. Just inch it down, increase your rise times and go from there.
I say this b/c I also have 70+ degree temps in warm months and lowish 60s now. I just routinely count on longer rise times, both bulk and final.
hester
Thanks, I forgot about her recipe - the first time I tried sourdough several years ago, I had a lot of success with hers. It's roughly 35% levain and 65% hydration. I will try it with her timing and see how under fermented the dough ends up.
Her hydration works well with my flours, but I find that her bulk time is a bit short and that baking times and temps could be increased.
She also has a breadcrumb variant on Norwich, replacing the whole wheat with crumbs. It's quite tasty and a great way to recycle unsatisfactory loaves!
Keep on baking.
Carole
and the bread turned out well, either find or create a space for your dough with those same temperatures now that ambient temperatures have fallen.
That might be in your oven with the light on and the door ajar to prevent overheating. Or it might be on top if your refrigerator. Or in a picnic cooler with a quart jar of hot tap water to maintain the warmth. Or a Brod & Taylor proofing box. Or sitting on top of a terrarium heater and swaddled in a towel. Or just about anyplace that stays at the temperature you want.
Or recognize that the dough will take much longer to ferment at the current cooler temperatures than it did at the previous warmer temperatures. And wait until it looks/feels/smells like it did when it was ready previously.
Paul
Hi, thanks for your time in replying. Yes, I need longer ferment, I guess that wasn't clear - I'm hoping to get some starting point as far as how long at the lower ambient temps. I've tried oven light, but results were very inconsistent, I could try the warm water in microwave. Right now I do not want to buy a proofing box, I'd rather just try to figure this out with my environment.
Of course, another way is just to make a big batch, and pull out dough at intervals until I find what works, but I was hoping to save waste and speed up the process a little if someone's already making bread under similar conditions. Make sense? :)
Are you measuring the temperature of your ingredients and the dough and the oven? I started doing that when I was struggling with consistency. Once I did, I got predictable results. There are formulas for predicting dough temp, or you can just guess how much you need to warm the water. I microwave the water in the glass bowl I mix in (so it warms too) so that it's above the desired dough temp by about as much as the flour and starter are below it, then they average out roughly right. If you overshoot, start the autolyse/bulk on the bench so it cools. If you undershoot, keep the oven door shut or even power it on for a few seconds to put it a few degrees above the desired dough temp. Check the dough temp each time you handle the dough and once it's right you just need to regulate the oven temp via how open the door is. More fuss than necessary but the reward is predictable timing.
Hi there, I tried following dough temp by keeping it in the mid 70s using oven warming setting and door. It worked nicely, but was a PITA. I am going to attempt it a few more times to confirm consistency. The bread was 65% hydration, and 35% starter. Used organic APF from ralph's/kroger.
That said, I would like to try to aim for a bulk/first fermentation that I can use with my low ambient temps, and leave it out 8-10 hours, then shape, start the second proof, fridge, and bake 8-12 hours later - I guess a ~24 hour dough. Possible?
One of our members posted this link to me a few years back.... I continue to find it invaluable.
http://www.wraithnj.com/breadpics/rise_time_table/bread_model_bwraith.htm
Hi there: I tried that spreadsheet last winter, however, it wasn't working for me - turns out that my starter had not been good (incorrect feedings led to a starter that would degrade dough quickly). I might give it a shot again after confirming consistency with using dough temps (see above). Thanks for the reminder this exists!
but I remember reading somewhere that if temperature decreases by 5°C, it will double the time of fermentation.
I'm only a beginner so I couldn't say but you could try using this table (already posted by someone else below) to get an idea by what factor your fermentation time will increase as dough temperature (and/or starter %) decreases. The actual figures might not be right because your starter might be more or less vigorous than the table assumes but the variations with temp/starter% should be, apparently. Also if the initial dough temp is very different to the room temp then results will vary!
Table: http://www.wraithnj.com/breadpics/rise_time_table/bread_model_bwraith.htm
Explainer: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5381/sourdough-rise-time-table
Or, going back to your original post, if you do the bulk in a clear container with graduated volume markings on it, you could do your experiments again and end the bulk when it has reached the desired volume increase. I have had more success stopping around 30%, as Tartine Bread suggests, than the 100% increase - doubling - that is more commonly suggested. Or you could do a bake using your proven-reliable method and temperature, but in a graduated container, see what % increase that is actually producing, then do again at cooler temps and keep going until it's reached the same %? Let's say it took twice as long, then double the proofing time also?