I converted my 100% wheat flour starter into 66% NMNF starter 2 weeks ago. The result was a disaster. In just 2 weeks in the fridge, it lost almost all its yeast power. The second week when I used it to build a levain, it failed to rise 4 hours after the second feed. Even after discarding and replacing the last feed it failed again to rise after 4 hours. I almost lost hope and started to mix a new starter from zero. I even had to use IDY to save my family's weekly pizza night.
Later it finally showed a glimpse of life, but it was too late.. it wasn't until 12 hours from the last feed that it rose to double. That's 20 hours so far, yet I need to keep discarding and feeding until it regains the yeast power it used to give me, when its able to double in 4 hours.
It seems that the gluten in wheat flour gets consumed much faster than rye. Or perhaps my starter is accustomed to my weekly feeding, so much that when it have changed it somehow wasn't able to cope with the unusual delay.. just thinking..
So unless you have rye flour like dabrownman suggests, don't use wheat flour or convert your wheat flour starter to this method. You will go round in circles for 2 days if you do.
I’ve been using dabrownman’s NMNF scheme for over a year now with great success. I’ve used 4 different flours: Organic Beehive (white flour), whole dark rye, type 110, and most recently whole wheat special, all from Central Milling. Yesterday I used my whole wheat starter that has been in the fridge since December 14 to build my levain, it grew like gangbusters. It’s been vigorous and reliable all along. I discarded my Rye starter because it seems to me, with my culture, it does better with wheat. Plus I don’t really care for rye personally.
It may be that your particular culture doesn’t do well with the program, or maybe your water or flour has a characteristic that precludes long life in the fridge. But I don’t think it’s just “wheat” that’s the problem. How cold is your refrigerator? Mine’s 37df. The warmer it is the faster the yeasts and bacteria will run out of food.
No doubt there will be other suggestions, perhaps you can post more specifics as to exact flour & temps. Keep feeding your starter, it will probably regain its former vigor. When I began with NMNF I kept parallel starters the old and new way until I gained confidence in NMNF, but now I’ll never go back.
Good luck with your starter, and Happier baking!
Tom
Many thanks Tom. I'm glad that it works for you. Unfortunately at my end there no much flour choices and brands like you have in the US or Europe.
- "How cold is your refrigerator?"
-- 34-35f
- "When I began with NMNF I kept parallel starters the old and new way until I gained confidence in NMNF"
-- that's how I should have done it, just in case it didn't work, but unfortunately I converted it all. I have to discard/feed several times now. Thanks God it began to show some signs of life back.
Did you put it in a warm spot after the first feeding? I find mine just sits there at 73F but does just fine at 82F.
What is your wheat flour? Whole grain wheat or plain all purpose flour? Whole grain or bran gets it going great.
Finally, what hydration did you use to build your levain? I usually use an 80% hydration levain and when I use bran, it is super thick and the only way I know the Levain is active, is by looking through the translucent sides or bottom of the container and seeing the bubbles there.
I usually give the first feeding 12 hours to get going and then I feed it again whether it rose or not, but I can see that there are bubbles in the mix. The next two feedings depend on the activity of the Levain. I don’t feed too early as that just overwhelms the yeast. I think that this is what happened to yours. You kept feeding and by discarding, you diluted the already sparse beasties.
Because it can be a bit unpredictable as to when the Levain is ready, I start it a couple of days before dough making day and when it almost doubles for the last build, I put it in the fridge till about 3 or 4 hours before I need it. I rewarm it at 82F and it seems to work just fine.
I am no expert at this but this is what I have been doing for my last few bakes since I have been sifting the bran out of my whole grain flour and using that to build my Levain. Overtime, I am sure I will be able to time things better but right now, this works for me. We have to remember that Dab’s kitchen is significantly warmer than most of us and that things move way faster for him than us with kitchens in the low 70s.
Many thanks Danni3ll3
- "What is your wheat flour?"
-- White flour.
- "what hydration did you use to build your levain?"
-- 100%
- "I usually give the first feeding 12 hours to get going"
-- but that contradicts the purpose of NMNF method which is supposed to be easy with less work. I have compared it to my usual method that I'm reverting back to: I keep a starter in fridge which I incorporate fully in my weekly levain, mix, take back in the jar the same weight taken, as a starter for next week. That's 2 steps in one, refreshing the starter and making a levain at the same time. I also don't see a necessity for multiple-stage building. The time factor doesn't change, whether you do a three 4h stages, or a single 12h stage. The levain lets us know when its ready to use in either methods. Whether it will take 4 or 48 hours, depends on the quantity of food given. In my experience, giving that food in stages or in one go, makes no difference. What really counts for me is when to use the levain: before peak, at peak for optimum yeast, or after peak for a more tangy taste.
- "The next two feedings depend on the activity of the Levain. I don’t feed too early as that just overwhelms the yeast. I think that this is what happened to yours."
-- Exactly, but I was just following the instructions. I know as you said that one should in general wait for activity before giving a feed, otherwise we would be diluting the mix. That's why I think the 4 hour rule for that method should be edited. Timing shouldn't be the measure, because there are many factors involved.
- "Because it can be a bit unpredictable as to when the Levain is ready, I start it a couple of days before dough making day and when it almost doubles for the last build, I put it in the fridge till about 3 or 4 hours before I need it. I rewarm it at 82F and it seems to work just fine. "
-- that's an excellent approach. Useful specially in my case, when planning to bake pizza for a specific event. Thanks for the tip.
Should a starter "go to sleep" and fail to rise/mature then you shouldn't be discarding and feeding again to "wake it up". This might make matters worse. Best to skip a feed or two, keep warm and stir. See what happens over the next few days. If the starter is going through some issue and you start discarding and feeding etc before the yeasts have had a chance to feed and multiply then you'll just be ending up with a jar full of fresh flour and water having thrown the baby away with the bathwater.
Many thanks Lechem
You're absolutely right.
I don't discard until it doubles or peaks, full of bubbles if in high hydration. I keep discarding/feeding until it can double or peak in 4 hours.
and a bread flour NMNF. The WW one acted similar to the whole rye one but maybe you could only keep it for 20 weeks instead of half a year in the fridge. for the whole rye The bread flour one was ok out to 12 weeks when I used it up but it was getting slow to build a levain.
The idea of the NMNF starter is to reduce the maintenance and waste to zero but also to increase the LAB to yeast ratio in the starter to make a more sour starter, levain and bread.
I think your experience is way off the norm because I can take a regular 100% white starter kept and maintained on the counter and stick it in the fridge for 6 weeks not worries The only thing that happen is that hooch forms on the top and it is slow to build a levain. You should easily be able to revive your starter out of the fridge after only 2 weeks so no worries there.
It could be the type of flour available at my end. Perhaps its low in gluten.
Yes, my starter is reviving slowly, no worries. Thanks very much for your help.