new to sourdough - over kneading?

I'm pretty new to sourdough - I've noticed that my dough always feels much stickier and a different texture than when I was just using commercial yeast. And, yes, I'm taking into account the hydration of the starter. The dough feels almost like taffy when I'm folding and shaping the loaf, very stretchy like bubblegum. (have I over kneaded the dough?) and seems to get wetter over time. This got me thinking ... I keep feeding my starter and stirring it down .. so that starter already has the gluten developed pretty well and then I add it to flour and water and knead it some more. Perhaps I should knead my flour and water and then add the starter later so the starter isn't getting any more kneading?

Anything else ventured would be guesswork. What is your recipe? At what stage does this happen? What flour are you using?

More info the better.

I've been baking yeast bread for so long, I'm used to just winging it :) - but for this new to me sourdough stuff I have been measuring more carefully while I try to make sense of it all. I probably should stop trying to make it up as I go and follow a tried and true recipe until I know what I'm doing :) Previously I was adding starter at same time as water and flour - but last night I did it the following way and it was better but still had that sticky bubble gum or taffy texture but not quite as bad. I think this was about 70% hydration 280 g freshly ground hard white (Prairie Gold from Wheat Montana - screened #40 so coarsest bran wasn't used - weight is after screening) 160 g water Mixed in Ankarsrum just a few seconds to wet the flour - let it rest for one hour added 170 grams 100% hydration starter (yeah, it's a lot - but I wanted to use it up) And kneaded slow speed Ankarsrum for 4 minutes. Let it rest for an hour Added 7.3g salt and 10g water to wet the salt and kneaded just enough to incorporate the salt. One stretch and fold every 30 minutes for 3 hours - it got progressively more shiny and taffy like and seemed wetter after 2 hours than it was before. I shaped it and put in a loaf tin (yeah, I'm still using tins for now) and an inverted tin on top and let it proof for about 90 minutes (nowhere near doubled) - it was late so into the fridge (it didn't rise one bit in the fridge) - pulled it out early this morning and it was doubled about 2-3 hours later. Egg wash and sesame seeds. Preheated to 500 - baked 450-475F for 25 minutes covered (water sprayed on loaf and inside cover just before going in the oven) and then uncovered at 425F for 15 minutes (could have used another 5 minutes or not lowered the heat).

Follow a recipe for now. But let's have a look at what you've done...

Initial autolyse was around 57% hydrated.

Final dough was around 70% hydrated.

Salt was 2% (normal)

Starter was around 61% (this is very high but ok if handled correctly).

Once your starter went into the dough the bulk ferment started. I calculate 4 hours! TBH I think you made more starter with that percentage and timing. Worse if it's very warm where you live.

How about this for a very nice recipe http://www.wildyeastblog.com/my-new-favorite-sourdough/

A nice build for the Levain would be:

Flour 100%

Water 100%

Starter 20%

Left for 12-14 hours overnight.

If you do a long final proof in the fridge then I advise you to put the shaped dough straight into the fridge to avoid over proofing. Otherwise follow the recipe.

I collect and rate my bread recipes - from firm favourite through must repeat to never again. And just as I reckon I 've reached nirvana, along comes another to tempt the senses, blow the weekend plans and ultimately scuttle the ratings chart!

This past weekend it was David's SJSD, and now this pops up from Lechem/wildyeastblog [audible sigh of exasperation].

Rather like one's children, nominating a favourite is not an option; same for bread?

Not sure I understand the difference between levain and starter. Early that day I took about 20 grams of starter left after previous bake (starter not kept in the fridge - my kitchen is cool and I halve it and feed it when it is doubled and bubbly) that I mixed with 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water ... when that was all bubbly and doubled in size (about 6-8 hours) that is what I used 170 grams of and called it starter. So was that starter or a levain? To me it's just starter but I don't know what I'm talking about :) sourdough is brand new critter to me. My kitchen is about 60-65F this week (I don't heat my house) ... so the timing on the bulk ferment was just based on how long it was taking to feel like it was working.

The dough for a sourdough bread usually does feel looser and wetter as fermentation proceeds, compared to a dough made with commercial yeast. The bacteria in the sourdough culture produce acids, which give us the sour flavors, and protease enzymes, among other things. The acids and the enzymes both lead to breakdown of the gluten network in the dough as time progresses.

The baker strives to find the balance between enough fermentation for adequate aeration and flavor in the dough and too much fermentation that breaks down the dough. What you have observed is normal in sourdough. Now it's a matter of figuring out the new (to you) tactics to employ for the outcome that you want.

Paul