Hi everybody,
I hope you can help me figure out what went wrong with this recipe. It's the first time I've made it and I had NO oven spring at all.
The ingredients are:
1 cup skim milk
1 cup water
1 cup app flour
2½ cup whole wheat flour
4 tbsp sugar
2 tbsp oil
3/4 cup oat bran
1/4 cup flax seeds
1/4 cup rolled oats
4 tbsp gluten
1 tsp salt
2 tsp dry yeast.
All ingredients put into the bread machine and put on dough cycle (in my machine that is 1 hour and 50 minutes). The dough was beautifully risen to the top of the bucket. I shaped the dough into two loaves and put them in sprayed tins. Covered the tins with a tea towel and left to rise for 1 hour. After that they were nicely puffed up just above the rim of the tins. Baked for 10 minutes at 190C (370F) and then 30 minutes at 175C (350F).
This is how they came out. Did I do something wrong or is the problem with the recipe?
Thanks in advance :)
the final proof (rise) in the tin? What does the crumb look like?
While I'm not familiar with timing using a bread machine, these loaves look over-proofed to my eye, so I'm suspecting that your room temperature was too warm for an hour-long final proof. You should have gotten more oven-spring if you had started the bake sooner.
For your next bake, you might want to either proof them in a cooler area, or use a bit less yeast, or just get them in to the oven sooner.
Regardless - these ones still look like they came out pretty darned good, and I bet they taste just fine!
at your recipe.
I ran through your recipe and converted everything to weights using a pretty cool online converter that I just discovered. You can check it out here. I'm not vouching for the accuracy of the conversions, but just getting some ballpark values I think I might have zeroed in on the problem:
Add up your flours:
for a total of 456.25g
Then add up your liquids:
for a total of 484g -- which is 106% of your flour weight.
And add up all of your add-ins:
for a total of 100.34g -- which is 22% of your flour weight.
I have a couple questions for you: was this a "bread machine" recipe or from some other source? And if it was from a bread machine cookbook was it recommended as a "dough" recipe, or to be baked in the machine? Have you ever baked it on the "whole wheat bread" cycle all the way through?
106% is a lot of hydration, but since your recipe is over 70% whole wheat flour quite a bit of that gets sucked up by the whole wheat. Also, a good rule of thumb for seeds/nuts added in is to stay under the 25% point, and this recipe gets really close to that. The 22% would most likely be fine, but remember also that this is an enriched dough (milk, oil and sugar) and they can sometimes have a tougher time holding up that extra material.
I think that IceDemeter is on the right track about the timing and temperatures. But if this recipe was formulated in some test lab to work on the complete bread cycle, it might be really challenging to make it work by using the dough cycle and finishing by hand. When you say that it rose beautifully to the top of the bucket, it would likely have set when the heating element came on during the bake cycle and given you a nice loaf, but pulling it out and reshaping it probably degassed it significantly.
I went through the exact same thing with my bread machine about 25 years ago. The first loaf was the obligatory white bread, the second was a heavy multigrain. The multigrain got so stiff in the machine it bound up the motor and turned it off - baked right on time and smelled wonderful, but it was a brick. Happened again the second time I tried it. That's what led me to getting some bread cookbooks and starting down the path of making bread by hand, and the last 25 years have been the greatest adventure! So don't give up - you'll keep having fun if you stick with it! This just might be a recipe you have to do all by hand, or all in the machine.
Hi Ice and Monkey,
Thank you both for replying.
The recipe is not from a cookbook, it's from a user on some food site. The dough is meant to be made in the bread machine and then baked in the oven.
I will try a shorter final rise next time. How short do you think it should be?
Looking at the nice job that MonkeyDaddy did at converting the recipe to weights, I actually see even less likelihood that the issue is the recipe itself. While the hydration does LOOK high, the add-ins will soak up a lot of that water (flaxseed typically absorbs 4x its weight; rolled oats typically 2x, and oat bran can be 3x or more) and this should actually be a pretty manageable dough.
Without knowing your room temperature and the elevation at your location, I really can't suggest what kind of timing you should be looking at for final proof. It may be an issue of over-proofing (which is what the outside of the loaves look like to me), but might also be under-proofing --- could you maybe include a shot of the inside / crumb to help discern?
Did you do a poke test on these? If so, how slowly did it fill back in, or did it at all? How did the dough respond to you slashing it? Did it seem to deflate at all, did it seem really firm and puffy or was it slack (feeling somewhat like a deflating balloon)?
Hopefully a few more details will help us make some better suggestions for you!
Hi again Ice,
I didn't do a poke teste - I never have. The temperature in the room was around 20-22C when the dough had the final rise.
Admittedly I don't have any really sharp knives, but I used my sharpest for scoring and it sort of behaved like a sad limp balloon when I scored it.
I've tried adding a picture to the post, but I can't upload from my pc only from a URL - can't get it to work.
do some thinkin'... since it seems like your room temperature is well within the "normal" for recipes, it shouldn't be a big factor in the timing. That leaves the possible issue as being the dough temperature coming out of the machine, or the amount of fermentation that occurred during the "dough cycle".
I've never used a machine, but I'm guessing that you put the ingredients in, it mixes / kneads, then heats up or holds a constant temperature for first rise (fermentation). At this point you are pulling the dough out of the machine, dividing it, knocking it back (de-gassing it), and shaping it to put in to the tins. (Yeah, I'm likely stating the obvious, but I'm kinda thinking this through in writing here!)
You stated that the dough cycle you used is 1 hour and 50 minutes, but is that the correct cycle for a whole wheat dough, or for a standard white flour dough? Whole wheat, particularly with added whole grains like the rolled oats and with the oat bran, has more available food for the yeast, and so will ferment / rise faster than a standard white flour dough. Does your machine have a different setting for whole wheat? Is it possible to try a faster timing than this?
Also, it looks to me like there isn't enough dough going in to your tins, so letting them rise to the top of the tin is basically letting them more than double in volume and over-proof. With that much whole wheat, I would be looking for only about a 50% rise (if the dough is 1-1/2" deep in the pan, with the sloped sides you would be looking for it rising no more than 1/2-2/3").
I don't know if your machine would allow it, but I would adjust the recipe for a dough amount better suited for the tin - so, either drop the total quantity and bake only 1 larger loaf or increase the quantity to bake 2 larger loaves. It is easier for me to work with baker's percentages for this kind of thing, so I would be thinking like this:
INGREDIENT
AMOUNT (g)
FLOUR TOTAL (g)
% WATER
WATER (g)
BAKER'S %
SUGGESTED CHANGE for 2 x 2 lb
DOUGH
1.63 x original
Sugar
50
8.64
82
Oil
25
4.32
41
Vital Wheat Gluten
36
36
6.22
59
Skim Milk
227
90.8
206.12
39.21
370
Flaxseed
35
35
6.04
57
Rolled Oats
25
25
4.32
41
Oat Bran
80
80
13.82
130
Water
222
100
222.00
38.34
362
Instant Dry Yeast (2 tsp)
6
1.04
10
Salt
3
0.52
5
Whole Wheat Flour
283
283
48.88
461
All Purpose Flour
120
120
20.73
196
Total Dough Weight
1112
192.06
1813
Total Flour
579
100.00
Total Water (Hydration)
428.12
73.94
My personal very rough "rule of thumb":
If 4" x 8" bread tin (1-1/2 lb), should be about 681g total dough weight per tin
if 5" x 9" bread tin (2 lb), should be about 908g total dough weight per tin
Recipe is shown at 556g total dough weight per tin (suitable for a 1 lb tin; 4 x 7-1/2)
INGREDIENT
AMOUNT (g)
DOUGH
Sugar
82
6 Tablespoons + 2 teaspoons
Oil
41
3 Tablespoons + 1 teaspoon
Vital Wheat Gluten
59
3 Tablespoons + 1 teaspoon
Skim Milk
370
1-2/3 cups
Flaxseed
57
6 Tablespoons + 2 teaspoons
Rolled Oats
41
6 Tablespoons + 2 teaspoons
Oat Bran
130
1-1/4 cups
Water
362
1-2/3 cups
Instant Dry Yeast (2 tsp)
10
Leave this as 2 tsp, for timing
Salt
5
1-2/3 teaspoon
Whole Wheat Flour
461
4 cups
All Purpose Flour
196
1-2/3 cups
Now, for final timing, I'm thinking that I'd start checking the dough with a poke test starting 30 minutes in to the final rise / proof. If the dough feels really tight and springs back right away, then I'd give it another 10 minutes and repeat. If it feels tight and airy, and the dent fills in somewhat slowly, then it is time to get it in to the oven. If it doesn't fill in, then it has over-proofed, and you can either dump it out, reshape it, and then let it re-proof only for 10 minutes or so, or just put it in to the oven right away, knowing that you won't get as much oven-spring. I would have the oven ready and pre-heated so that you have no delays once you've tested the dough as ready.
What do you think?
Thank you for all your work, Ice :)
I will try your suggestions next time I make this bread.
Brava, IceDemeter! Nicely done!