I am hoping to determine the "neutral" hydration of a soaker. Meaning the amount of water that it takes to completely absorb the dry ingredients in a Soaker, but not so much water as to change the hydration of the Final Dough. So when the Soaker is added to the Final Dough Ingredients it neither adds moisture to the dough nor does it absorb additional moisture from that dough.
If I can somehow figure that out, I will be able to tell the correct hydration of any given dough with a Soaker.
For example, Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain shows 98% water in the Total Formula. In this case, it seems only experience can tell me how wet the dough will be.
--Dan
different rates and amounts.
Take 20g of any one grain and cover with 100g of water. Soak. Strain and weigh the water and the soaker separately.
Repeat with all the grains and seeds individually. Take good notes and this is a lot of fun and experience!
Play with the figures later. You can also Soak for half an hour, strain, weigh and recombine to soak longer giving you a better idea of how long different grains take to soak up a maximum amount of water.
Knowing how much each grain will increase may help you. My general observation is that those seeds that soak and swell quickly, usually give up the water quickly during the bake. Those that are slower to absorb water are greedy. If the natural soaking time is longer than the recipe soaking time, these grains may absorb moisture during the bake.
I generally soak overnight. Would I gather correct information if I soaked 20g of a particular grain or seed with 100g water. Weigh the water and maybe the grain/seed after the soak. If, for instance, there was 60g of water left over would I assume the absorption rate to be 200%?
Also, if I took the 60g (20g dry grain + 40g of absorbed water) of soaker and added it to the final dough should I expect the hydration of the dough to not be affected?
As always, I appreciate the help
--Dan
If I remember, even the bbgapdf mentions this is more a matter of experience and/or trial and error to get. As mentioned, different grains or seeds or whatever, can absorb differing amounts of moisture. Add to that environmental factors, differing humidity all along the chain from mill to your kitchen, manufacturing variations, just to name a couple variables, finding an exact number may turn out to be a lesson in frustration. And then imagine having to test this almost every time you want to bake a loaf of bread. Yes, baking can be an exact science, but not so much for baking bread. I don't even weigh when I make bread, so I'm sure hydration, and everything else varies a bit (probably a big bit) with each bake. I still consistently make bread I love to eat, so much so I haven't bought bread in something like 6 or 7 years, or longer. Throw it all together, what does it feel like? It feels good, you're good to go. It doesn't, throw in some more whatever till it feels good. I've never been one to make things more complicated than they already are - KISS is the way the go for us home bakers!
because how much water a particular seed, nut, grain or whatever absorbs seems likely to be affected by its moisture content at the time of soaking; e.g. I'd expect a very dry raisin to absorb more than a less dry one.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't abandon this concept. There may be too many variables.
In the case of Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain, the dough hydration is calculated at 98%. So when the recipe calls for 865g water in the Total Formula, it stipulates 368g in the Soaker. And the Soaker absorbs all of the water during the overnight soak. So 890 (ttl water) - 369 (soaker water) = 521 (left over water). 680 (ttl flour) Making the Dough Hydration = 76.6% By feel it looks like Hamelman figured this out precisely. Did he do it by trial and error or did he find some other way to calculate this?
Maybe I should adjust the dough to the proper hydration by feel and then figure in the water percentage. Or in the case of a written recipe; trust the formula, adjust if necessary, note any changes to baker's %.
In both cases I could note the "hydration feel" in my Baker's Journal.
--Dan
"Bread Baking is perfect for those that obsess"
Fwiw - if I divide total dry (grain and seed and salt) by total liquids (including starter - as it appears he considers liquid by the annotation in his recipe) I got 94% I think it was. Still not 98%, but a lot closer than the 70% you got. If I don't include salt, I think I got 96%. If talking about a final dough hydration, I believe this would be the way it should be calculated. Regardless of how much something absorbs water, hydration is still a ratio of dry and wet. And a final number would consider all dry and all liquid. No?
Well, I added up all the dry flours, grains and seeds and divided them into the total water used in JH's recipe and got 73.2%. Forget the salt - it's not relevant.
I think this is where the classic definition of hydration can be confusing; to call this a 98% hydration recipe doesn't seem quite right. Much better to add in the weight of grits, grains, seeds, etc and assume that they will have a similar absorption capacity to the flours.
Lance
saying it is 98% is not silly. 98% would be pancake batter.
I say, add up all the flours, seeds, cracked grains and use that amount to calculate the hydration level. I got 73% percent as well.
the seeds and nuts and whole berries can't be included as "flour" even tho we know they will absorb water. The way I calculate when making up a formula is to generally know what those seeds will absorb and add it to the water in the formula. That gives very high hydration rates... like 95% or 104% etc. when calculating with the flour. That is why a whole recipe is looked at and not just the hydration when trouble shooting a dough consistency.
If I take a basic recipe say at 70% hydration and add 20g of chia seed that I know absorbs 4 times its weight in water within the time I will be mixing and fermenting the dough. I will add 80g of water to the recipe. The seeds will compete with the flour in the dough for moisture but they will give it up as well if the flour demands it. So when skipping the soaker, it may look like a batter but within 30 min. autolysis time, it thickens and stiffens up to a 70% hydration dough. These gel making seeds can be tricky to incorporate into dough when soaked so I find it easier not to soak flax and chia and just add more water to the dough.
Grain berries are a different story. I let them soak, and soak. I might pre-cook the tougher ones after soaking like dried beans, kamut berries, and big large hard seeds. Drain and use like nuts. The give back little during the bake. Oats with surface broken and/or rolled grains quickly swell and also give back moisture to steam away.
Do you have, or know where I can get information on soaker ingredients absorption percentages? Such as, "20g of chia seed that I know absorbs 4 times its weight in water".
Here is a wheat experiment, showing water absorption. The most I get out of this is that wheat soaked for 10 hours contains less that those soaked for 40 hours almost twice as much. But we start getting into sprouted seeds at that point. Short PDF file link
Because the seeds are lying on a waterlogged material, their position seems to make a difference. Notice all the variables in this experiment and what affects absorption. One could go crazy with detail and gadgets. Also different areas of the grain take up water at different rates.
Look at your recipe and how long is the soaker and wet time of the dough. Use that as a guide and check the absorption of your soaker grains and seeds separately and record their behaviour at various times. Then see what applies to your recipe. Then you can make a guess at where to tweak the hydration. The time it takes to do a kitchen experiment will most likely take less time than the time it takes to find an absorption table listing those specific ingredients. Keep your notes.
I have no idea about absorption levels and where a table can be found. I agree with Mini Oven, that good notes are your best bet. Next time you make something with a soaker, instead of putting all your various cracked grains and seeds together, soak them separately. Weigh them before you put them in the water, and weigh them after you take them out. Use a strainer and get as much dripping water off them as you can before you weigh them. Keep good notes.
Perhaps recipes should be published with two hydration values:
Also, of course, any liquid and flour coming from a levain should be included in hydration values.
Lance
Things get trickier with ingredients that do contain some water. These could include butter, syrups, honey, vegetable/fruit items, etc. Sometimes the amount of water from the ingredient is trivial, sometimes it is significant. For things like milk and eggs, I usually treat them as if they were 100% water, which they obviously aren't. In a one or two loaf batch, it really doesn't matter. In a fifty loaf batch, I would have to account for them more carefully.
Oils certainly affect the dough characteristics but they aren't part of the hydration.
Paul
Technically you are of course correct, but I believe that including the oil in the hydration calculation will give you a better measure of dough consistency and handling characteristics than would be achieved by ignoring it.
Lance
hmmm, in trying to find a formula to fit the result - take out the seed, rye and oats and you get 98% hydration. Coincidence maybe?
I am going use Mini-Oven’s procedure to validate dry grains for water absorption. With this information, I will add dry grains to my recipe and additional water just to hydrate the grains. This makes so much sense to me!!! The recipe is KA- https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/six-grain-bread-recipe which is a yeasted quick bread. Since there is not a formal autolyse, do you think the regular mixing will provide enough time for the grains to absorb the extra water?
I appreciate TFL and all those who post. I’ve learned so much. Thank you, Thank you! suz