Okay, this is a new one on me. I'm tired, cranky and frustrated, trying to make hot cross buns. I have twelve dozen to make over the next week or two, so this is not a good thing.
As background, I made a whole bunch of these last year. They were a bit tricky to shape but worked out very well. I also make breads of all different types and hydrations (not a newbie), some with fruit and things (including spices, including cinnamon) in them, some with enriched dough. So, I feel like I have at least some experience.
This batch is proving impossible, though. I based it on the recipe on BBC here (I know, I know, I don't usually like Paul Hollywood's recipes either, but it was just a place to start). The basic changes were:
- substitute chopped dried fruit for some of the candied peel
- moisten the fruit with a bit of orange juice and vanilla
- substitute a spice blend (cinnamon, allspice, ginger and cardamom) for the cinnamon
- add a bit of whole wheat flour
- make a sponge with some of the flour, milk and yeast & let it pre-ferment for an hour before mixing the dough
The dough itself was quite nice, soft and elastic and no problem kneading it. However, when I added the fruit and spices I could not get the latter to knead into the dough. The dough toughened up and basically laminated. After leaving it to rise for the second hour it was still laminated and shaping it into balls was almost impossible. It was hard to describe - kind of a little pile of chopped fruit and shreds of dough that just slipped around each other and refused to form anything at all. I tried flour, oil and water on the bench and my hands and none of them helped. I squashed the blobs into sort-of balls and popped them into trays to rise, and thought I would come and whine to you folks while I wait to see if I've wasted three dozen HCBs.
I guess what I'm asking is:
- Do you usually mix the fruit and spices into the finished dough after it has risen for an hour and if so, how well does it work for you? Any tips here?
- Does anyone mix all the fruit and spices right into the dough from the beginning? Again, how well does that work?
- Do you think leaving out the chopped fresh apple would make it easier to handle?
What you describe sounds a lot like my attempts to use Peter Reinhart's "epoxy" method. I have a lot of trouble mixing together (by hand) two pieces of dough, especially one is significantly higher hydration than the other. The only way I've made it work is by working the messy shambles much more intensively than usual and over a fairly long time. i.e. I find I need to squish it all together vigorously, it seems to get worse, leave it for a while, and then repeat. Sometimes it still doesn't seem properly integrated when it goes into the oven, but so far loaves like this have turned out ok. Certainly much better than I expected.
I have also had an experience like this when trying to incorporate "add-ins" to a dough about an hour or so after initial mixing. Generally I've assumed my problem was being overly generous with the amount of goodies I want to incorporate.
I have no idea why you'd be having this trouble when you didn't last year; and I don't have any answers to your questions!! But I share your frustration and commend you on a very articulate and constructive whine!
in with the flour at the autolyse stage. Not sure about the fresh apple though. Maybe mix that innwith the flour too.
fruit and nuts are added after the first rise. The reason being is adding in early will hinder a good first rise due to the weight.
Since coarse add-ins like fruit and nuts will sever the gluten network, they need to be softened. Try soaking your fruit in water or alcohol for about 30 minutes, then drain well. Also try flattening out the dough into a rectangle, sprinkle the add-ins on top,mroll it up, then gently knead together.
If you're using AP flour as the primary flour, vital wheat gluten really helps when using coarse add-ins. Hate to sound like miss bad news baker, but the bran in whole wheat flour will sever you gluten network as you mix and knead. So you're getting a double-whammy of gluten destruction between the add-ins and the whole wheat.
Since bran in whole wheat lowers the gluten, by nature it's going to cause density. If you are using AP flour blended with whole wheat, vital wheat gluten will give you a better balance of elasticity and extensibility.
The whole wheat flour addition caught my attention for another reason as well:hydration. Did you increase hydration to compensate for the whole wheat flour? Where white AP flour only needs 60% hydration, whole wheat needs 100%. Some bakers, like David Miller, will even go above 100. If you look at his whole wheat recipe, you'll see he uses 102% hydration. So that tells you how difficult it is to hydrate whole wheat. Even if you only added a little whole wheat, you altered the hydration requirements.
and if you're primary flour is a brand like King Arthur AP, your hydration requirements will be more than other brands to start with. King Arthur AP requires approximately 60 ml (1/4 cup) more hydration than lower gluten brands like Gold Medal. Bread flours require about 78 ml (1/3 cup) more hydration than low protein AP flours.
I like to add softened butter or egg to the dough after it has been fully hydrated and don't like adding melted butter at all in teh beginning. I don't like using fresh apples. I much prefer dried apples that are re-hydrated with apple cider and the liquid squeezed out. I don't like kneading dough the old fashioned way adn I like tio rehydrate the dried fruits with bourbon rather than using dry.
I have never had a problem adding all the stuff in after 3 sets of slap and folds during the first set of 3 stretch and folds. Nothing against PH but there are better recipes out there and many on this site. I like the changes you made to the spices too.
Happy baking LL
Here are some thoughts on your three questions:
1. I always recommend adding any spices and fruits at the tail end of the initial kneading process. Building on what Norcalbaker has already mentioned, anything in your dough that isn't flour and water will inhibit gluten formation. The addition of big, chunky things like fruit and nuts will inhibit it moreso. Soaking dried fruits in room temperature water beforehand is a very good idea, as dried fruits are hygroscopic and will suck moisture from the surrounding dough if not soaked. Vital wheat gluten, as mentioned, is indispensable for transforming fruity doughs like this from garbage to gold. Furthermore, when mixing the fruit and nuts in at the very end, do so slowly and gently. Mixing too vigorously, especially in a mixer, can shred the fruit, causing fruit acids to leech into the surrounding dough and weaken the gluten network.
As long as you develop the gluten properly in the first knead, soak and drain the fruits nicely, and don't destroy the fruit when you knead, you should be good.
2. Don't add fruit and spices at the beginning.
3. Mixing in fresh fruit that's super high in water content, such as apples, makes for a sloppy experience. All that water from the apples will cause issues with your carefully adhered to water/flour ratios. I'd skip it.
I love hot cross buns, but can't stand the mixed peel. I always put dark and/or white chocolate chips in mine instead. Not traditional, but that's how I roll.
Good luck with your bunning!
His recipes for the masses are on the simpler side. But the general population which makes up his audience doesn't consist of the bread nerds that populate our halls at TFL.
However...I'd like to smack him every time he makes a joke about Mary Berry's age. But then he smiles and his eyes twinkle and I forget about it.
First, despite the difficulties the last batch turned out very nice - the customers were happy. But to save my sanity, I think I'm going to do the following next time:
Thanks all for you advice and input!
but some customers who are used to white ones may not like it as much but us whole grain lovers will:-)