Hi Everyone, I know I have been posting a lot and I just wanted to say thank you all for all your help.
I have been trying for the last two weeks to nail or at least successfully complete this recipe!
The recipe has a levain build,
35g | Mature liquid starter (100% hydration) | 50% |
35g | Giusto’s Stoneground Whole Wheat | 50% |
35g | Giusto’s Artisan Bread Flour | 50% |
70g | H2O @ room temperature | 100% |
and the final dough
804g | Giusto’s Artisan Bread Flour | 91.67% |
73g | Giusto’s Organic Stoneground Whole Wheat | 8.33% |
755g | H2O @ 90ºF | 86.11% |
18g | Fine sea salt | 2.03% |
150g | Mature, liquid levain | 17.09% |
I have attempted this recipe twice failed both time. Here are the things I changed, I cut the recipe in half and I used different flour KA all purpose and Bob Mill Stoneground WholeWheat Flour as well as 100% rye starter. Otherwise everything is by the book!
The step where everything false apart is the pre-shape! The dough spreads on the table not able to hold its shape or build any tension on the surface. I tried spending more time developing the dough the second time when mixing in the salt but it didn't seem to help.
Can anyone identify where the problem areas might be, and why I can't seem to develop a strong enough dough to hold its shape during the pre-shape!
your hydration is extremely high hydration. The author of the recipe notes this fact as well and suggests working at lower hydration and working up towards this (87%). the only bread that I ever back that even approaches that hydration is ciabatta and as Hamelman notes in his book "(ciabatta) requires special handling (like locking all the doors so the bakers cannot run from the exits)." I would lower the hydration as per the author's suggestion and work your way up. It might be that your particular choice of flour brands requires less water.
I read somewhere that all purpose flour can take less water than bread flour. So that could be part of the problem.
Don't give up, you'll get there :)
which tends to matter more as you raise the hydration %. Consider that, for example, the difference between 11% and 13% gluten isn't simply 2%. If we just look at the gluten, there's 18.2% more gluten in the latter.
In addition, if we assume a nice round 1 kg of flour, that's 110 g vs. 130 g. The 110 g may work fine at 75% hydration once we're used to it, but when we raise it to 87%, we're asking the same 110 g of gluten to hold together 1890 g of dough (2% salt) instead of 1770 g. Given that 75% hydration can require a lot of trial and error before we get used to it, it stands to reason that as we push the hydration higher, the loaves will continue to call for more and more skill.
And if we've jumped up to 87% rather than approaching it gradually, we may have made the learning curve even more difficult.
to develop gluten more thoroughly, and reduce the water to 700g (or 350g since you're doing a half recipe). This is only a couple spoonfuls less water, so your dough will still be pretty wet -- wet enough that you can do slap and folds without the risk of overworking the dough.
If you've made lower hydration loaves before, look for that bouncy, round feeling in the dough to tell you when to stop. It will be tacky but it should sit up for you nice and tall.
The first time I tried slap and fold on a Tartine loaf, it took me 15, 10, and 10 min. with about half hour rests. I'm more efficient now, and 10 + 5 min. is enough followed by a few stretch and folds. Don't pay attention to my times though, developing dough strength depends on your flour, levain, your hands, and lots else. It might take you longer, or you might be done sooner. Trust your instincts.
I agree with those above that your flour is probably weaker than what's called for in the recipe, but you should be able to get good bread with a bit less water and a bit more sweat equity. Once you get an outcome you're pleased with, you can try raising the hydration. Try 360g water on the next attempt, and so on, until you're satisfied.
I'm currently reading Daniel Leader's "Local Breads", where he discusses many of the traditional breads of Europe and how they are made. Consistently, he says that high hydration doughs (and many of these are lower than the hydration you're working with here) need to be mixed quite vigorously. Many of them are developed in stand mixers at quite high speeds for 10 to 15 minutes! He says that, when mixed and kneaded by hand, some wet doughs need up to 45 minutes to develop into that strong, stretchy, glossy dough that will provide the best oven spring. Apparently many of these wet doughs will still spread when shaped but the oven spring is supposed to be enormous. I will be trying this long mixing myself; it sounds intriguing.
the types of flour in those recipes? I've over-mixed my dough by hand a few times -- not to the point of goo, but rubbery crumb. Those loaves had explosive spring, big distributed holes, very photogenic but tough. The chew was a bit too reminiscent of twizzlers. I backed off the slapping and don't get the same fat, round loaves, but the crumb is still open and it's creamy and soft.
Do you think blending weaker pastry flour and mixing longer would give that explosive spring with a softer crumb?
really high hydration in breads such as ciabatta (I made a 95% hydration ciabatta the other day) I used my stand mixer and mixed for around 15 minutes to get a nice elastic looking dough!
I have never tried using my (brand new) mixer for a naturally leavened bread! Everyone only seems to never use mixer and do everything by hand.
The one time I tried kneading this recipe, I used the Rubaud method. I definitely over did it tho I think I only kneaded it for 7 to 10 minutes and instead of building strength the dough started to get soupy and became almost like glue, very similar to the couple of time I overproofed my doughs. I have no idea what went wrong besides over working the dough, I guess.
From what I understand it's nearly impossible to overwork dough enough to destroy the structure when working by hand. One thing Leader talks about is the stages that dough goes through, and he seems to indicate that (at least when done in a mixer) it will indeed go through a stage where you think it has turned to soup, but if you persevere it will start to spin off long strands of glutenous dough and then form a satiny, cohesive ball after that. I've had that same problem with hand-worked dough turning very sticky and sloppy. Maybe we should just keep going?
Yes, he talks extensively about the grains and flours in different regions. He often advocates using a lower-protein flour, or blending bread flour with all-purpose to get similar results. I have done this with a couple of my recipes and it ends up with a more tender crumb and crust for sure.
The doughs he's talking about are very wet (he says they look more like batter than dough when these artisan bakers are mixing them) and do result in the very webby, open crumb that you get in a ciabatta, generally.
better results! I modified the recipe by baking it the same day and not letting it ferment overnight in the fridge. I am pretty sure I overproofed it yesterday, any constructive criticism is welcome: