Sourdough isn’t proofing after 15hrs in the fridge.

New starter, different flour and awful results. I am using organic high extraction white bread flour (14% protein) from Farmer Ground Flour in upstate NY. I would like to keep using it, (have KA artisan select as a backup) but the results have been humdrum and appear to be getting worse as we plunge into winter. I am turning to this community for suggestions, analysis, advice. The loaves* don’t seem to proof at all overnight and are roughly the same size as when they went into the oven.

*does the shape loaf/boule matter?

The bulk ferment doubles within 5 hours;

Bread is:

1000g flour

560 water (85F)

320 lively starter (1:4/4)

24g salt

Procedure: mix 4 minutes slow, autolyze 30 min with salt, mix fast 4 min, bulk ferment (doubles in 5 hours), pre-shape, shape, lay in couche, let proof for 1-2 hrs at room temp (65F, it is chilly out here and the kitchen is in a barn) and refrigerate. Walk-in is at 38F (commercial kitchen). At this point the dough isn’t sticky and has a good bounce. Today for some reason though, the loaves are like starchy caramel.

In the morning (15 hrs later), the loaves are limp, haven’t proofed at all and are essentially soggy dough. I’ve tried baking (450F x 10 minutes, steam injection, 425F x 25 min) directly from cold, tempering a bit and in both cases the result is roughly the same size as when I started and the crust is like cement. Crumb is ok, but could be much better.

The whole wheat version however (500g high ex/500g whole wheat, 600g water, 320g starter, 24g salt, same method) is inexplicable better and has a better proof/rise.

So, is it the flour, too much hydration, too much starter, not enough room temp proof, fridge too cold?

It is infuriating to be wasting a good product and time making crappy bread.

Judging just by color I would say that all starches are already eaten and therefore can't caramelize. Just a guess. The flour you are using is much better that I can get so I have no doubts about that. I would try with shorter bulk fermentation and would not let the dough to double, so would probably end at 3 hour mark, shape it and straight to fridge for final proof. With one of the loaves I would try to bake without retardation to see how the dough behaves then and then make some conclusions.

What are the timings with the whole wheat bread - are the same? Whole wheat flour speeds dramatically the whole process. That bread looks lovely and now we have to find out why that difference in the result.

Happy baking!

Joze

Thank you. I will bulk ferment 1/2 way. Though the kitchen is cold (starter is at 60F) I have a proofing option (85F with 60% humidity) on the fancy oven.

I had a similar problem when I used some Giusto's flour a few years ago and never considered the overproofing in the bulk ferment. What is it about this type of flour that is different? I used the same flour to make egg yolk pasta and it oxidized faster than any other I've used.

I might do a batch with 50% hydration and 20% starter as well.

I would agree with Joze that a good first step would be to cut the bulk ferment down a little bit, and to maybe throw in some stretch and folds rather than fast mixing. I have experience working with Farmer Ground Flour and have never had problems with it ; it could be that the mixing is too aggressive for the batch you picked up and therefore you need to be more gentle with it. The guys from Wide Awake Bakery--a bakery that was co-founded by the guy who makes Farmer Ground Flour--talk about being very very delicate with dough made from FGF. Also, give it a little time to proof at room temp before throwing it into the chill chest (maybe 30 min).

Additionally, your hydration seems WAY low for FGF, even for the half-white bread flour (high-extraction). I would normally hydrate towards 75%, and the dough still seemed kinda stiff. I think you're gravely under-hydrating your dough, and I would bump it up to at least 65%. Without proper hydration, the dough will have trouble fermenting, that's for sure. I would also back down the levain to at most 20%.

It could also be the flour itself ; since there's no garbage additives in FGF, so it's a product that needs to be pretty fresh if it's to be at its most effective, or aged at least a month. From an article in which FGF is mentioned : "They have also found that either freshly ground flour or flour aged over a month is relatively easy to work with and makes excellent bread. Flour stored for a short period of time—say 10 days to a month—will be much more difficult to work with and should be further aged before use." Could be that too.

Thank you Lepain

can you suggest a mixing time? I've done 2min/30autolyse/2min and after reading Eric Kayser went up to 4/30/4, even 4/30/6 finishing with high speed but I agree that it may be too rough.

It is indeed good flour and cheaper than the KA organic artisan. $45/50lb vs $65/50lb

and others won't budge an inch - especially with a new weak starter. Just depends on the mix amd the amount of levain. If it is getting a crust on it then it needs to be bagged better. it should be able to go for several days in the cold with no crusting if properly protected. I say use that proofer to keep the levain and dough at the right temperature - the cold really slows things down. If it isn't proofed after 15 hours in the fridge just stick it in the proofer till it is. Its the dough and not the clock that counts. If it over proofs in the fridge then just reshape it and let it proof again on the counter - no worries - eople that bulk ferment in the fridge and then shape the next morning do ths all the time.

Happy baking

The old adage of "watch the dough and not the clock" would be good to follow for mixing as well as fermentation. A lot depends on what kind of mixer you're using : a spiral mixer is going to mix differently than a dough hook than an axe oblique than a diving arm mixer. It may be that your mixer is too much mixer for your flour, if that makes sense.

How much dough are you making at a time? Would it be realistic to mix a big batch in the mixer until the ingredients are incorporated (maybe 2-3 minutes LOW water/flour--autolyse 30 minutes--2-3 minutes LOW with salt and levain/yeast) and then divide into smaller batches into plastic tubs? That way you could build strength through stretch and folds rather than through the mixer. I only recommend this because I have only worked with FGF by hand and it has been fine.

Check the date on the package, too : usually the expiration date is 1 year from the milling date. That way you can know the milling date and know how old your flour is. If it's between 10 days and a month, it could be that. If it's approaching the end of its life cycle, it could be that, too.

...made under the same conditions is fine. That seems to point at the flour you're using: one works, the other does not. How about trying to match the protein level of the white flour you use with the whole wheat (which has to be a lot lower than 14%)? Chances are that the recipe you're using is perfect for the one, but not the other. Why not buy an all-purpose flour and mix it with your stronger flour to achieve roughly the same protein percentage as the wholewheat? Just try it and see how the loaves come out.

As always I echo the sensible advice from lepainSamic and dabrownman. If you're loaves are over-proved and you have time to re-shape and prove again, just bear in mind that the yeast will take a little longer to do its job. So leave it on the counter and check it carefully and frequently. Even if you over-prove again, you can repeat the process a third time but it might not work very well as the yeast will become exhausted very quickly.

With a 5 hour bulk ferment sounds a tad too much.

Then a further 15 hours for the final proof. Although it is done in the fridge if the bulk ferment is done correctly and with that amount of starter I'd say 8-12 hours would be within a normal range.

Sometimes doubled doesn't mean ready. It's more the feel of the dough. Depending on flour used and how you've done the folds doubling might not be the best indicator.

Try dropping the Levan to 20% then 8-12 hours in the fridge. But watch the dough. Aerated, billowy and extensibility of the dough are good indicators.

I tried higher hydration (65%) and it was an unworkable batter. 50% works well. The main culprit now is that the kitchen is cold (less than 60° overnight) so the starter slows and I often have to use the combi oven for other purposes rather than proofing. Might have to wait until after the holidays when I have more time to dedicate.

For the whole wheat i use 50/50 high-ex/whole wheat. I also made a 7grain with 250hi-ex/150ww/100grain(flax, millet, etc...) 300water, 160 starter and had much better proofing/rise.

I do notice that the WW bulk ferments much faster.

Any recs on baking temp/time? I find the crust to be too thick & hard at 450°- 10min then 425° 20min.

Thank you all the help.

Works well with wholegrains too.

Flour 100% (60% wholegrain wheat, 40% bread flour)

Water 90% (this is flexible but you want it high for no knead to work. don't drop below 75% for an all bread flour dough and aim higher for the more wholegrain you get in there. 90% hydration for this mix 60:40 works well)

Salt 2%

Starter 1%

1. Mix dough and bulk ferment for 24 hours giving a fold at 12+ hour mark.

2. Shape (this is a very sticky dough so shape like a ciabatta, minimal fuss) and final proof for 1 hour.

3. Bake in pre-heated oven.

http://www.northwestsourdough.com/yohan-ferrants-do-nothing-bread/

After shelving the bread for a few weeks I have the time to reassess. After some reading it is possible that the chlorine in the water may be affecting the starter but I am not convinced -i leave the water out overnight as a precaution.

The kitchen however is quite cold. 55-60F more or less and running the oven on proof mode for a few hours is not really efficient. I've looked at this chart of sorts that portends to predict fermentation times based on starter % and temperature. Any comments on whether or not it is accurate?

http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/lactic-acid-and-yeast-fermentation-predictive-model-a-tutorial/

With 20% starter at 60F it would appear that I'd need 24hrs to get to a baking point. Presumably I can let rise by 1/2, shape and proof overnight at 60F without going into the fridge.