Hi all,
I started a sourdough seed/starter about 10 days ago following the instructions from Peter Reinhart's artisan bread every day. I though it was ready to make bread after a week, but it wasn't. I did quite a bit of search and reading and started feeding it almost twice daily with a combination of rye and bread flour with 100% hydration (66% in the book though). I switched to all purpose flour for the last two feedings. I noticed that it was more active with all purpose flour and I could see lots of bubbles on the top in 12 hours, but it didn't rise as much, only about 1.5 times instead of 2 times. With rye flour, it took about 24 hours to see bubbles on top with rise and fall.
Is it normal for the starter to take longer to absorb the feeding with rye flour than all purpose flour? Shouldn't all purpose flour gets more rise than the rye flour?
Thanks!
if the gas bubbles are rising and bursting on the dough surface. Thicken it up with more flour (or less water) and the starter will rise more.
Usually rye ferments faster than AP but it takes more AP to make a thick enough starter to trap gas bubbles.
Rye also had a tendency to form a thick skin on top of the starter which may prevent you from seeing gas bubbles, poke it, it may be hollow underneath. Look at the sides of the containers and compare the gas bubbles that stick to the sides of the jar and they collect gas and move up in the starter.
So many thanks for the info! Ah, that explains why the whole AP feeding didn't get as much rise as others. I also noticed that using all AP made the starter watery. With whole rye or 40% dark rye (which I've been using to feed the starter these two days), there are lots of small bubbles I can see from the side but not much on the top.
Should I vary the hydration ratio if I'm using rye in it? Or it doesn't matter as long as I know how much water is presented in the starter?
that you know how much water is in the starter if you want to do any math or comparisons with others. Talking about the thickness (or thinness) of a starter is difficult without knowing the hydration. I pretty much go my feel when feeding starters. I measure on occasion when specifically asked or want to know or following a recipe (my eye balling is pretty darn close) but my maintenance starter seems healthier when I respond more to it changing slightly with the weather and temps, than when it is regimented. I want it wet enough to ferment. Crumbs ferment very slowly.
The standard has been white wheat AP to compare with, most folks are familiar with AP wheat (but that can also vary from country to country) but it gives a basis for discussion. An AP wheat flour can absorb and still make a dough at 50% hydration (or 100g flour to 50g water.) At 100% hydration or equal weights of flour and water, it is like a pancake batter, perhaps thinner.
With flours that contain more bran or more protein, a higher hydration is needed for the same low hydration dough feel, logo, the fibre and protein absorb more water. When reading a recipe, a quick check on the hydration (water weight divided by flour weight times 100) will say a lot about a recipe when taking in the type of flour specified.
A bread flour starts with 60% hydration (and goes up.) Whole wheat 65% and up. A rye at 65% is very stiff and feels much like a 50% AP wheat (except it is sticky.) Flours will absorb moisture and dry out with exposure to air so some flours will absorb more or less water depending on the room, storage conditions and age of the flour. So a little tweaking is often done.
If you have to tweak a recipe or instructions, do take time to add little helpful notes to yourself. Time of year (winter heating) the flour brand type used and how much water added or left out. Any one recipe will have variations throughout the year so don't let that surprise you. As you've seen, a jump from one type of flour to another will make a bigger difference.
I feed both my starters 50% hydration wheat starter and 90% hydration wheat starter with bread flour which has 13.4 % protein *.
My 50% hydration starter rises faster and has a dome , my 90% hydration starter rises more slowly and with that one I always do the float test so that I know when it is ready for baking.
The only reason for keeping 2 starters of different hydration is that the stiff starter is more sour than the 90% hydration starter which has a more subltle sour flav and my Mother in law prefers it.
I never liked quite thin starters, so the most would be 90% hydration.
Hi PetraR,
I'll try the float test next time I take the starter out of the fridge. I just put it in last night. Do you need to knead the 50% hydration starter every time? I find it easier to feed one with 100% since I don't need to knead it.
I would wait for 1 hour before you do the float test, not straight from the fridge, give the yeasties some time to warm up:)
Yes I do knead the 50% hydration dough every time I feed it.
Kneading does not take to long, does not have to be smooth and elastic as a * real * dough:)
I do prefer the * stiff * starter as it gives me the sour flavour that I love, I do not get it with a 100% hydration starter.
I have a 90% hydration starter that I use when a recipe calls for 100% hydration, but feeding is messy and it sticks to everything and itself...
Rises the most and has the bigger bubbles. Very rarely do the bubbles break the surface. If left long enough and the texture changes to more liquid then I might see something on top.
Keeping it in a see-through container allows you to see what's going on.
My other 100% hydration starter which is 6% rye, 24% whole wheat and 70% bread flour has much smaller bubbles and always breaks the surface.
It's consistent with what I've seen with my starter. I did left it out for 24 hours once, and finally saw the bubbles on top...