Back in the 70's I worked as a baker for a large school district but we only worked with enriched white bread formulas. Then I got a book from an extension agent that I then learned how to make "farm" style breads including whole grains and a few rye breads. Rye was what my son's grew up on and they are very partial to a old "black" rye called a Heidleberg Rye, but I prefer rye with a smaller amount of yeast and/or a sourdough so I am trying to substitute a 100% hydration sour rye starter instead of using the yeast. Tasted great but the loaves rose to split apart BEFORE entering the oven. (this recipe is a "coolrise" method from a 1969 book)
BTW...the bread tasted very good but I was embarrassed to give these loaves away...LOL! With heat they ripped apart even more.
What I need is some guidance on how much starter to use to substitute for the yeast in this recipe. Also... do I let this rise longer than the 20 min "rest" the original recipe states (since I am using sourgough) BEFORE shaping and then retarding? This recipe is what they love the most and often is Christmas eve treat to drop in guests with slice meats and cheeses.
Recipe as I've made it for 40+ years:
Coolrise Heidelberg Rye (Homemade Bread published by Food Editors of the Farm Journal 1969)
3 cups all purpose flour
1 tsp yeast (original recipe uses 2 pkgs which is way too fast)
1/4 c black cocoa
1 tblsp sugar
2 tsp coarse sea salt
1 tblsp caraway
1/3 cup molasses
2 tblsp oil or shortening/butter
2 C. warm water or coffee
2 1/2 to 3 1/2 cups medium rye
Mix ingredients holding out the rye for 1-2 min in mixer. ( I tend to let it sit for 10 mins or so)
Start adding remaining rye until a soft dough forms, then knead by hand 5-10 mins (or by machine). Rest 20 mins covered. Recipe says to "punch down" and divide and shape but I just flatten to rectangle then roll up fairly tight sealing it well then letting loaves go into frig for overnight for 2-24 hrs covered. I found 1 tsp of yeast worked well for time when I mixed up at night but didn't want to bake till afternoon. Original recipe says take from frig 10 mins while preheating oven, score, then bake at 400.
The loaves that split using the rye sourdough sat till my oven stone was well heated, but loaves were crazy split and looked under sized (compared to the 40 years of baking the bread with straight yeast). Crumb was moist and well form the day after and I made "dry crackers" out of the loaf that was the worse looking. I enjoyed the tang that the sourdough added and my son's didn't complain about a change to their favorite bread.
I am not completely stuck on this recipe...just the taste of the recipe. If there is someones recipe out there that uses cocoa and coffee and molasses but is not a dense pumpernickel I'd be happy to try that instead.
Any suggestions will be helpful.
I have used Mike Avery"s recipe for New Bohemian Rye with great success. He gives the Demolder process for converting your starter to the rye starter. See: http://sourdoughhome.com/newbohemianrye.html.
Ford
I will run over and check that one out. I have a deli rye bulk fermenting right now cause wouldn't ya know, the granddaughter likes sour rye (like her Nana) so her request for rye is first in line cause she takes it to school. But I did promise the sons some black rye...so got to get going on that project.
you already have a rye sourdough that is 100% hydrated, right?
Sourdough recipes usual have from 14% of the total flour in the recipe to 40% of the total flour, in the starter (or 14% to 40% of the flour is pre-fermented). A 14% sourdough (like the 1-2-3 recipes) will take several hours to rise, while a 40% sourdough will rise rather quickly, like in 2 hours or less depending on temperature. Quality improves with longer rising times.
So, If you used a starter made up of 1 3/4 cups of rye (222 g) and 1 cup of water (228 g) that's close to the 100% hydrated rye starter. You would delete the yeast, reduce the rye flour by 1 3/4 cups and reduce the water by 1 cup. The recipe has 30% of the total flour prefermented and should ferment in 2 to 3 hours and proof in 1 to 1.5 hours or until the loaves have risen 1 1/2 times their volume.
By 100% I meant my rye starter is usually about 1 cup of organic DK Rye and 1 cup of water...and I used it this time at a youngish stage. Maybe I am not understanding what a 100 hydration is all these years. I was under impression that I needed a more liquid starter for rye unless I am looking to slow it's progress.
What I did was add 1 cup of of this starter (which I had increased from the storage amount in frig) then topped that off to by using 1 1/4 cups of water because that seemed to be the amount needed when mixing. I found the dough rose much faster than I expected possible because the starter was so active.
I'm going to try and figure this out after reading that web site you suggested...and the latest. I got me some worksheets so I can do a better job of tweaking it.
Now that I think about it...I think I sifted the Dk Rye to get more of the bran out since I couldn't find a light or medium rye anywhere close to me. Then I used the bran in some muffins.
Got some figuring to do...I am sure it will make more sense soon. As soon as I can figure out how to get pics off my Xmas present of a smart phone I will upload any results.
I still haven't figured out how to upload my pics from my iphone...but the crumb was moist and fairly fine (which is what this bread is all about). I used my 1 cup of youngish sourdough...BUT this time I started with it straight from the frig.
The time for bulk rise worked well. The shaping I did a better job off I think...hoping to avoid the splitting seen before. I let it rise after shaping 3 hrs...but I thought it might need a bit more...till I saw a little splitting along the side...so I slashed and baked and the split didn't get any worse. Maybe I need to put in 15 mins earlier.
I over baked it a bit BECAUSE when I put the thermometer in...it said 200 but came out looking muddy which I have never seen before. Still, it was as good as any other loaves I've baked for decades with this recipe. I did have to add 1/3 cup more water than my figuring because of the dark rye and power flour, but that's to be expected. Dough was a joy to work with.
I will do another batch to check my measurements and results...but I am tickled pink that it worked so well with no yeast, just a young sourdough. I would probably like it a little sourer but I'll leave that one to my sour rye recipe from TFL.
Thank you all for the guidance converting.