Today I baked the sourdough bread I've been looking for ever since starting this odyssey. It has a crispy crust and a stretchy, holey crumb. And it's easy. As I told a couple of friends earlier, "...it's reproducible, if the weather stays exactly how it is today."
I'm not suggesting that this could be anyone else's ultimate sourdough, but it sure is mine, at least for right now. Thanks to all who have helped me over the past year or so, even unwittingly. It continues to be great fun. The recipe is below.
Susan's Ultimate Sourdough
Starter is made the way Peter Reinhart suggested to us in class: 1:3:4 (starter:water:flour)
A single small boule, made by hand:
12g starter
175g water
25g whole wheat flour
225g hi-gluten flour (All Trumps, to be exact)
5g salt (I use Kosher)
Mix starter and water, mix in flour. Rest a few minutes, then re-mix. Dump into a greased bowl, let rise until doubled, about 8 hours. Turn the very soft dough onto your counter and pat it out, then sprinkle salt over the top. Roll it up, then gently knead a few times to distribute the salt. Let relax. Do the following until the dough is hard to fold: round up, let the dough relax, stretch and fold. Round up, let relax, shape, and put it in a banneton for proofing 3-4 hours in a warm spot.
The oven was preheated for 30 minutes at 500F, and reduced to 450F after I put the loaf in. It was baked on a tray, covered, for 18 minutes. The cover was then removed and the loaf baked until dark brown, about another 8 minutes.
- Susan's Blog
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That is a beautiful looking loaf. I can see why you'd be happy with it! I'm new to sourdough, so I hope you don't mind a question- you don't mention steam or spraying, etc. Does covering the loaf replace that? Does it keep it moist longer too? What do you cover it with? Whoops- three questions!
Marni
I have been looking for an uncomplicated sourdough recipe and this looks pretty darn easy! I know what my baking project for the week-end is going to be. My starter (Jim 3 named after a contributor here who has since moved on...) has been out of the fridge and warming and getting fed the past two days - I'll report back with my result. I also am interested in hearing about Reinhart's starter method - I've got the book but I'm looking forward to your interpretation...
Trish
Thanks for enjoying this loaf with me. I've made it a few times, so it really is reproducible.
Annie and Trish, As our little TFL group left Peter Reinhart's class not long ago, he called out to refresh our starter using a 1:3:4 ratio. I went home and adopted that ratio, and it's been working well for me. I refresh using 15g:45g:60 or 30:90:120 depending on how much I want to keep around. btw, I've been refreshing my starter about once a week, and immediately put it in back in the fridge (Thanks, Mike A.). I can use it the next day, and for the next 5 days (so far) to start dough, without any further refreshment.
Marni, covering the loaf for about half the baking time is a standard for me. Either put the loaf in a preheated Dutch Oven or roaster, or on a hot stone or cookie sheet with some type of covering, even just a stainless steel bowl, and it will make a tremendous difference in oven spring. Give it a try. You won't need to put water in the oven or spray. I make small loaves for the two of us and we eat 'em right up, so there's no waste. I've also found that sourdough bread lasts longer than yeast-risen bread.
Annie, it had better work in WA, or I'll be terribly embarrassed!
Jpfridy, you can do it, just make the same loaf over and over again until it's like you want, making small changes. Don't switch from recipe to recipe, hoping to find one that will work for you. It's not the recipe so much as technique.
May your bread rise,
Susan from San Diego
Rubbery sounds about right. And fingers work fine, although I usually use my kitchen shears and snip it into little bits while it's sitting in the water, then beat the aitch out of it with my chopstick. I've been using the recipe above lately, which only uses 12g starter. If you're using a recipe that calls for more starter, then you might have to add more water, which you did. How could you go dreadfully wrong? You know more than you think you do! Forget about time and do what the starter or dough is ready to do. If your starter looks like it needs a little time on the counter, leave it out. If it needs to be refrigerated to keep it from getting depleted, put it in the fridge. Nothing is cast in stone, as we're all working with our local temperature and humidity. Let me know how your bread turns out.
Susan from San Diego
Susan, I've had a question about your Magic Bowl method and now seems to be the time to ask it.
In using either the Pyrex or the stainless steel bowl, do you preheat it in the oven before using it to cover the bread, rinse it out with hot water but have it otherwise cold, or just put it over the bread cold after you put the bread in?
I preheated it the first time I used it, and got wonderful oven spring. The second time I did not preheat it and the boule just sat there, but it was a different dough recipe, so I don't know whether to change the recipe or the bowl temperature.
Thanks for any help forthcoming.
Mary
Brilliant, Susan! It looks fabulous.
About what temperature is your "warm" spot for proofing?
-Elizabeth
Mary, I've done both, and I really can't tell any difference. When I use a Pyrex bowl, I usually heat some water in it in the microwave, but mainly just to heat the bowl before it goes in the oven, for safety's sake. Don't know if it actually is safer, but that's what I do. I pour the hot water in the sink before the bowl goes in the oven. Make sure you put a kitchen towel over the glass in your oven door in case you drip water; don't want any broken oven windows! Using a stainless steel bowl is easier, it won't break and it's so thin that pre-heating couldn't possibly matter, imho. I don't rinse a stainless bowl. And please don't burn yourself!
Elizabeth, I put a cup of boiling water in my microwave along with the dough to proof it. Seems like it's about 83-85F. I usually change the water out once, when it gets cold.
Jane, I see where you're coming from! That's a question I find very hard to answer. I made a loaf of commercial-yeast bread the other day and found it bland compared with my naturally leavened bread. And day-old sourdough bread is much more sour than fresh sourdough bread. This bread is not neutral, nor is it like SF sourdough, it's somewhere in between. Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer. People taste sour differently, too, so it's hard to know what others consider sour.
Weavershouse, you've been a big help to me, whether you know it or not; thanks for the compliment.
Another thing, I've been very free about putting the dough in the fridge when I had to, or overnight.
Thanks again, everybody! I hope I've answered all your questions. If not, just ask. Good luck.
Susan from San Diego
What a good idea to put a cup of boiling water into the microwave to warm it up! I have always used the oven with the light turned on but I don't think it's quite as warm, especially in the winter. But it always feels like a bit of a waste of energy to have the light on for such a long time.
We don't have a microwave oven, but we do have a toaster oven. Maybe this is the way to go.
-Elizabeth
David
Thanks for the answer, Susan. I think I will preheat, and switch to the metal bowl, although I do love the chance to watch it rise under the glass bowl.
And yes, we will be careful. We figure it's a four-handed job, which I think makes it a lot safer, as long as we don't get in each other's way.
Mary
Susan:
I wanted you to know I quadrupled this recipe last week-end. I was going to have a house full since my kids and two grandkids (2 & 3) bought a house three blocks away from us (lucky me!!) and Sunday was moving day with a crew of all their buddies helping them move. My contribution was to watch the babies and feed everyone supper after the big move. I didn't get started on this quick enough on Saturday so after its 8 hour rise I had to retard it in the fridge overnight. I got it out Sunday morning, let it warm up a bit and then formed my four small loaves. They rose for four to five hours and then I scored and popped them, two at a time onto my hot stone and covered with a huge aluminum bowl I have. The fragrance while baking was amazing. Long story short, it's Tuesday morning and I have no loaves left! My daughter in law said the four loaves laying on the cooling rack looked like a picture in a cookbook. The little ones were walking around after supper with small slices of bread with a dab of butter munching away. (No better compliment than that, right?). Sorry, no pictures this time - we were too busy and it disapeared too fast. Thanks for another great recipe!!
Trish
Susan you have once again set a high standard using simplicity. This is a very nice recipe, easy to follow with super results. I love that you make small boules. The breads are always fresh and it's just enough for a dinner meal. Thanks for another great post!
Eric
Thanks, David. You do beautiful breadwork! And I love your interaction with bwraith. Hope he's having fun on his trip.
Paddyscake, I'm always doing something like that. Just the other day I dumped a loaf right on the open oven door--splat! It was a pancake, of course, but the birds loved it.
JMonkey, I thoroughly enjoyed Peter's class. He really, really wanted us to have fun and be successful breadmakers.
Trish, so glad you had a good time with it. You are a lucky girl to have your grandchildren close by. They'll be helping you make bread before long.
Ah, Eric, didn't you know? Simplicity is my middle name. Thanks for your kind words.
And Weavershouse, your feedback is very much appreciated.
Also, if Jane's around, I did notice that my dough was very 'fragrant' coming out of the refrigerator this morning. Very earthy and sour-smelling. This loaf is 40% spelt. Now, if I can just keep from dropping it before it's baked.
Best to all, and thanks again.
Susan from San Diego
I'm happy to report that I didn't drop the 40% spelt loaf on the oven door, although I did slice it a bit warm, as you can probably tell. Spelt makes for a much softer crumb. Personally, I'm a chewy-crumb girl, but it's a very nice loaf. Used the same method as at the top of this page, but with the following formula:
12g starter
162g water
150g hi-gluten flour
100g whole spelt flour
5g salt
Susan from San Diego
Looks perfect Susan! Is spelt known by another name? It seems I recall there is an AKA that I have in stores here in flyover country. We don't have spelt on the major supermarkets.
Eric
The spelt I used is Arrowhead Mills' Organic Whole Spelt flour. I bought it at a local "healthy food" store.
Thanks!
Susan from San Diego
First, congratulations on your fabulous sourdough loaf! It must feel wonderful to have found the bread you've been searching for.
I made the recipe yesterday, and I didn't get great results. Of course, I am pretty far from your conditions in altitude and humitity--high desert, 7000 ft. I did convert my starter to the 1:3:4 ratio, but I'm wondering if I needed to build it a little longer. (I also wonder if ww and rye starters should adhere to that ratio?)
Here's what happened: the dough was very sticky and rose slowly, although within the times you designated. Last night I turned the final rise out of the brotform when it looked like it was in danger of over-rising, and it did seem to almost collapse. It was still an hour short of the 3-hour final rise (and yes, up here things do rise faster). I also had it in a very warm place. It would be helpful to me to know what to look for instead of times, I guess...
The bread came out fairly flat and with little oven spring and no big holes. Do you think that this is all because of over-rising? Is your dough sticky? After the first mix, my dough wasn't really soft, but it softened up after the first hour. Also, the kosher salt didn't disperse well although I did work the dough as you directed.
Any pointers would be very helpful! Thanks, Patricia
So sorry I missed your congrats and questions, Patricia. Better late than never, I hope.
Thanks for your kind words, and for trying the bread. I've made this bread at 5800 feet with no problems, but 7000 is way up there! Over-rising could certainly have made it flatten, and that happens at sea level, too, believe me! I let it rise at room temp after an overnite in the fridge, and take whatever time it needs. I check the primary fermentation by snipping the top of the loaf with scissors to check for the presence of bubbles. At that point, I shape the dough and put it in whatever I'm using for proofing. Poke the dough with a floured finger to see if it's ready to put in the oven. If the dough collapses, you've waited too long. I like a blown-out look, so heat the oven when the poked hole fills very slowly.
As far as the salt goes, I use whatever kind is handy, but always fine ground. I weigh the salt rather than measure it so I don't have to worry about which one I pick up.
The dough is fairly sticky after mixing and resting, especially if I've used a bit of rye flour in it. I spray the countertop with oil to manipulate the dough, and even rub a little oil on my hands.
Again, sorry I took so long to answer!
Susan from San Diego
I haven't tried the recipe again, but I will try it again and let you know how it goes. Since I wrote, I haven't had any disasters, so I expect that I'm getting the hang of things...
Thanks again,
Patricia
And there is plenty of information if googled. Hard to believe that 160 years ago it was the dominant grain in Europe.
Mini
hello,
i will be attempting your sourdough recipe this weekend. i cant wait to try. the bread looks awesome, thanks for sharing!
I hate to seem ignorant but since I have not followed this thread, I will appreciate the componants that make up this ratio for refreshing the starter.
nijap
Hi, nijap:
1:3:4 means 1 part starter to 3 parts water to 4 parts flour. For example, 15 gms of starter mixed with 45 gms of water and 60 gms of flour.
What flour you use is up to you, of course. I use a mix of 70% AP, 20 % whole wheat and 10% whole rye. I'm not sure what flour Susan uses to refresh her starter, but I bet she'll tell us.
David
Thanks David. If I may impose a bit more, my bread, even with nice crum with holes is still not light enough. I used Whole wheat and it is heavier then Pillsbury unbleached all purpose flour. The bread does look like Susan's, like the photo at the top, and is bit more chewy then I prefer.
Qustion is, what contributes light fluffy structure, and how much of it is the flour? Also, how do I make it less chewy?
nijap
Nijap,
If I understand what you are asking, the flour here is a high protein bread type flour. If you want to make a more even crumb I think you would be better with a different recipe. Maybe an Italian bread. Italian has a little malt and sugar usually and some oil and usually milk instead of water. I hope this helps.
Eric
on making the cover. I knew you were coverbread material! Love them boules!
Mini
I hope I haven't tripped over my foolishness, but you write that you covered the loaf for the first part of the bake. Please, can you say how the loaf was covered? Or a photo?
Robert
EHanner provided a good overview:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3571/covered-baking-revealed
Basically, you overturn a stainless steel bowl (or roaster cover, or anything that would give the dough room to rise) on your loaf as it goes into the oven and leave it on for 15-20 minutes. Carefully remove it, and continue baking until the loaf is dark brown (a darker loaf has a tastier crust).
Have fun, Robert. And thanks for asking.
Susan from San Diego
Hi Susan,
(I just saw this post, I guess the fact that you made the front page brought your year-old post back to our attention. Congrats!) Beautiful bread too! Is this still your ideal sourdough bread?
Also, it's time I thanked you for the vital information you provided about covered baking. I had thought I was getting good oven spring, until I used a turkey roaster lid as a cover for the first time, around 4 or 5 months ago. The oven spring with the lid created "bloom" and "grigne" both, as I had never gotten with all other steaming methods. The bread-to-be stays uncolored for much longer, allowing lots of growth under the lid. The resulting bread looks so beautiful, I am still amazed at this technique!
Sample picture:
David
Very kind of you!
Thanks for including your bread photo; it looks lovely. Covering the baking loaf really does make a difference.
With just the two of us here in the house, I keep my breadmaking simple. If you go to my blog you'll see what I've been up to. Basically, I just add seeds or grains to my current basic recipe. For instance, yesterday I added lightly toasted walnuts to the dough. And we love the Faux Rye for sandwiches (with just the tiniest bit of rye flour, it's really just Caraway Bread). Other favs are flaxseeds, poppyseeds, sunflower seeds, and steel-cut oats.
Susan from San Diego
Hi Susan,
Your blog posts contain numerous nuggets of bread-baking wisdom! I like your overall "minimalist" approach, with respect both to your tools and also in your variations on a proven theme. Curiosity makes me ask: what's the chopstick for?
It's true that it doesn't take much to make good bread, but it can be a struggle for the novice figuring out how to get there! (Which is also why seemingly small changes, such as covered baking, can have such profound effects on the edible results, as well as the breadbaker's overall craft.) I also appreciate the seed and grain additions in your breads; again, small changes providing significant taste variations.
Do I detect another simplification? Your earlier SD recipe employed a "final levain", while your newer recipe goes from a small amount of starter directly into the dough, requiring a longer bulk fermentation to inoculate all the flour. Do you notice a flavor enhancement using this technique?
Keep up the great work!
David
David, sorry I confounded you with the chopstick! That's what I use to mix the dough, then use it to turn the dough over on itself in the tub. It's so easy to clean, and does the job well.
Heck, maybe I'm lazy, but I do like simplicity. Here's a loaf I just pulled out of the oven, it's got Nigella sativa (black sesame seeds) in it.
I'm not trying to confuse anyone, but my methods certainly evolve over time. As you can tell, I'm not one to use cast-in-stone recipes, altho I have lots of baking books that I love to peruse.
Glad I've been able to help you in small ways. My breadmaking certainly wouldn't be where it is today without TFL and the Bread Buddies I've made.
Susan from San Diego
Beautiful bread, Susan! One good pic deserves another.
(For some reason I don't always get alerts on the threads I subscribe to, so I missed this one.) I love the way the bread is opening up, you can see the terrific oven spring in the finished loaf. Black sesame seeds sound wonderful!
As to confusion, it isn't always a bad thing. But you must be strong to mix dough with a chopstick! Wet doughs do create special challenges. I have found dipping my hand in water and mixing in a large bowl (from Hamelman) works as well.
My baking has improved manifold since I found TFL. I was just beginning to work with sourdough, so it feels like it's been a long time, though it's just been a year. All sorts of simple methods have popped up to enhance my technique: learning not to fight with wet doughs, but to go with them, has been high on the list.
I'll be watching your blog for more beautiful bread!
David
Yet another excellent use for Susan's magic bowl (well, actually it is more like David's (dmsnyder) magic foil turkey pan too). I've been trying to use up some organic white flour that handles very strangely in that it creates an extremely slack dough that gets wetter during proofing, I've never had so many problems with dough as I've had using up this particular odd flour. More than once now, the shaped boules have stuck badly to the bannetons, where I had to pull and scrape them out, giving me a very messy ripped and deflated pancake loaf.
When this happened to me again Sunday night however, after the usual string of choice words to express my frustration, I pulled out a large foil turkey pan from my pantry, sprayed the inside of the pan with water just before loading the messy loaf into the oven on the stone, covered the loaf with the foil pan, and lo and behold 15 minutes later the messy loaf oven-springed beautifully to normal boule height! It even had a nice open crumb when we sliced into it. My second boule also got stuck, and I repeated the technique after the first loaf was done, with the same success.
The large turkey pan worked well since I usually make large boules, and my stainless bowl is a bit too small to fit over them without getting stuck to the loaf.
Thanks Susan for highlighting this great technique, and David too for pointing out the benefits of the foil turkey roaster as an inexpensive substitute for a stainless bowl. I've never had a ripped apart, deflated loaf rise as well as these ones did using this simple steaming technique. It rescued my boules from disaster! Can't wait to try it on baguettes soon... --MD
Being new to sourdough baking I was shocked at how little starter was called for in your recipe Susan. I immediately began studying posts on the site on "how to" regarding sourdough starter preparation.
After recognising the importance of a healthy starter I decided to try your recipe four days ago. I have just this minute removed my second batch from the oven which I trippled and both batches were superb, as testified by my family who can't resist slicing and eating... slicing and eating.
Thanks Susan, I will be whipping up another batch very soon.
Paul.
I'm so glad you are happy with your bread! Isn't it a wonderful feeling to make something good for your family and have them just love it?
There's a batch of this bread in a big yogurt tub on my counter right now, thinking about rising. :-)
My best to you and your family,
Susan from San Diego
Matthew, yes this is a slack (wet) dough alright. A couple of things I've picked up on here and also from a baker friend:
1) your SD starter needs to be in tip top condition, one good way is to feed 4 hourly during the day for a day or two, and even for up to four days in a row, then leave it over night. The next day it should be in peak condition, reducing your fermentation and rising times.
2) With slack doughs, after the first rise, fold your dough ( see lessons>folding) then flip it over and rise a secong time and repeat the folding/flipping. Rise again and bake. Each successive rise seems to strengthen the dough, allowing it to "sit up" more each time. The flipping or turning over causes more even gas bubble distribution throughout your dough giving a more even "holey" crumb. But I've been so enjoying the results from these slack dough recipies, just percivere with the process and weigh your ingredients carefully. They are worked out well by the writer.
Paul ( newbie and getting good results.)
Susan/David:
I am trying to repeat Susans results. I did get a nice loaf but I am not consistant at all. Too many vartiables. What are the brand of flours Susan used? High gluten would mean higher then 14%? None of the flours I use list the gluten content on the bag.
As Susan said in this thread, it is more important at what stage the starter and dough are, and if they are ready for the next stage. If it is at all possible and if photos of starter and dough at different stages, are available it will be a great help. I am determined to nail this down so I get consistant results. I plan to show off to my two sons, (one of them as an accomplished amature cook) on their visit next month.
nijap
Hi, jijap.
Susan should answer the question about what flour she uses. I've used Guisto's "Ultimate Performer" flour which is high gluten, but my source no longer carries it. So, I've been using KAF Bread Flour. This has worked well, although the result is less chewy.
The starter should be very active to get the best results with any sourdough bread. If the starter is mature and has been fed within the past 3 days (and kept refrigerated), it works for me. Having fed the starter within 12 hours of starting the bread making is a bit better, probably.
Timing depends on how active your starter is and dough temperature. Room temperature makes a surprising difference in how fast the dough rises. What is important is that you develop the gluten well. Gentle mixing but multiple folds during bulk fermentation works best for me. Let the dough double in bulk during bulk fermentation. That's really important. I ferment the dough in an 8 cup glass measuring pitcher, so I can measure the actual expansion precisely. The "finger poke" technique will help you know when the dough is fully fermented. Poke a finger into the dough. When it's ready, the hole should fill very slowly or not at all.
To get the wonderful oven spring typical of Susan's breads, it is important to under-proof the loaves. Letting them expand 50-75% - no more - seems best.
I hope this helps. As has been said, timing of various stages are estimates. The appearance and behavior of the dough is what really matters.
David
Hi David,
I have been looking for a SD recipe that looked easy enough for it to be my first attempt. Even though my starter has been going for months, I have been able to come up with multiple 'reasons' for not trying to bake one --- Not having a stand mixer, Not having the correct flour available, Not having a stone or a fancy oven etc. I needed something 'easy'! Susan's is the recipe I chose. As I read through the thread, I read your response to 'jijap's question", and it was helpful in many ways---then I came to this paragraph:
"Timing depends on how active your starter is and dough temperature. Room temperature makes a surprising difference in how fast the dough rises. What is important is that you develop the gluten well. Gentle mixing but multiple folds during bulk fermentation works best for me. Let the dough double in bulk during bulk fermentation. That's really important. I ferment the dough in an 8 cup glass measuring pitcher, so I can measure the actual expansion precisely. The "finger poke" technique will help you know when the dough is fully fermented. Poke a finger into the dough. When it's ready, the hole should fill very slowly or not at all."
It was a 'Moment' for me ----- I said to myself "If I only knew exactly what he meant in that paragraph, I would begin right now!" If it's not too tedious, I was hoping you could expand a little for my benefit.
1. Gentle mixing,fermentation and multiple S&Fs and doubling---Am I correct in assuming that during fermentation the dough is allowed to double before each S&F? If so, how many rising/S&Fs are done? Total ,estimated, time?
2. The 'finger poke' you mention to evaluate your fermentation sounds like the same 'poke' used for proofing before the bake--Is this how I should determine that my fermentation is complete?
I waited a day before I sent this request, and now that I look back and read my questions---They do seem like 'bone head' questions! But I must still ask (head down and embarrassed)!!
Thank you,
lefty
I'll be doing this tomorrow with a starter refreshed the night before. I'm hoping refreshing the starter around 11 and then waking up at 7 to mix the bread will work, but my starter is...active...so I may have to mix it up when Adam gets up for work. Guess I'll be going to bed early tonight. :)
I wanted to thank Susan for this most excellent formula. I made it for the first time today and turned out the lightest, most open crumb sourdough loaf I have ever baked. I followed her instructions but used KA Sir Lancelot and Golden Buffalo flours instead. These are my results:
I was amazed at how much rise I got using a 4 qt. pyrex bowl as someone had recommended on another thread. The loaf was 7 inches in diameter and 3 1/2 inches high.
I also wanted to mention how easy and effective using the 1:3:4 starter build was for me. I used 10 grams of my own homegrown starter built with KA AP flour. It had last been fed 3 days before and I took it straight from the refrigerator and fed the 10 grams with 30 grams water and 40 grams KA Bread flour. After 14 hours sitting out at room temperature, when I thought it had passed its peak, I used a 12 gram piece for the dough. As you can see, there was plenty of activity in the starter.
So again I want to say thanks to Susan and everyone else who chimed in on this thread.
Jessica
Thanks for letting me know about your success. I'm glad you're having so much fun. Next time add some seeds or steel-cut oats. BTW, I like your choice of flours.
Susan from San Diego
I'm to the stretch and fold stage, so shaping and proofing are not far away. It's going into my oven for that. This dough had to have 11 hours on my stove to double because it got cool in our house last night, so I'm letting it proof in a slightly warmer place for time purposes. I want a sandwich for lunch. :D
Thanks David. I started one today. Let us see how it comes out.
after baking several years with pre-ferments like a biga, pooolish, etc. I've begun experimenting with the world of sourdough--one question i had about this recipe (which i can't wait to try) is do you take your 1 part starter straight from the refrigerater and combine it with the water and flour ratios, or is this recipe assuming the one part starter has already been fed and allowed to ferment at room temperature for several hours?
Thanks for your question. Sorry I was late in answering you. This recipe assumes that the starter has already been fed and allowed to ferment at room temperature.
In my opinion, there's just no bread as good as sourdough. Hope you enjoy all the fruits of your experimentation.
Susan from San Diego
thats ok, susan! i've been keeping busy with a lot of other bread ventures! :) always something fun (and yummy) to work with! however I did feed my little starter first thing this morning--so the experiment begins! :) thanks!
Hi Susan,
I'm making your ultimate sourdough for the first time (quadruple batch, feeling crazy I guess), but for some reason (flour variation? mis-measured?) the dough came out stiff (1st pic) before the bulk ferment, not slack as you described, so I kneaded in an additional 60g water (which would be 15g for a single batch) to make the dough slack (still slightly slightly firmer than a ciabatta dough).
^ Dough too stiff at first so I kneaded more water in.
^ Woke up in the morning to find this monster (more than doubled)
^ After stretching and folding for 25 minutes; holds shape a few seconds (pic above), but sags a lot after 30 seconds (pic below).
V
Is this too slack for this recipe? Or does that look about right?
After the first or bulk ferment overnight (it more than doubled), the dough was very slack like a ciabatta dough. I then folded it using an oiled pastry cutter on an oiled counter, and folded, and folded ... for 25 minutes, expecting it to become 'hard to fold' as in your description, but it never became hard to fold-- a little puffy and firmer perhaps, but in 30 seconds (I timed it) it would still spread back out a lot. Was this TOO slack? Should I have kneaded a little flour in to adjust?
I put it back in the oiled bowl and let it do a 2nd bulk ferment (ongoing now) hoping that adding that step would improve the dough. There's still time to adjust this before it sticks in my brotforms and sags all over my oven stone, so I'd appreciate any advice folks could give! --Kent in Taiwan
In my experience with this dough, I'd say that's way too slack. Doing this by hand last night, I mixed everything except the salt, did a frisage, and then autolysed for about an hour. Brought back to the work surface, I could already pull a very decent windowpane. I stretched the dough over the work surface, sprinkled the salt all over, misted with my bottle of water, then folded it up. Put back in bowl for about 20 minutes. Back out, I then performed Bertinet stretching and folding for about 12 minutes. Another windowpane stretched easily and very thin. I rounded and put in a lightly oiled bowl for bulk. This normally takes about 8-10 hours, but due to the temperature changes we finally got in the last two weeks, this only took exactly 6 hours (kitchen temp was 82.5° F). Dough was portioned, shaped into boules, set into bannetons, and retired to the fridge.
This dough is just barely sticky enough to allow the Bertinet folds, which use the stickiness of the dough to perform the stretch. I always use hand kneading last, because I've had so much experience with it, I can rely on my feel there. It does NOT stick to my hands to any great degree, nor do I need to use much bench flour. At all times before bulk, this dough is the consistency of silly putty, which is fairly firm and slightly slimy. After bulk, the final shapes are pillow soft.
I'm wondering if your bulk might have gone too long and destroyed the structure, as well as being over-hydrated from the extra water? You might want to just make one boule next time.. and what kind of flour are you using? Do you know the protein content?
I find this recipe to be 'dead on' when using King Arthur's Bread Flour and King Arthur's Organic Whole Wheat, but I don't know what you have available in Taiwan. This is one just a handful of recipes in my regular rotation that I just mix up and go to work with it...
- Keith
Thanks, Keith! For the high-gluten I'm using 駱駝 Luòtuó Camel brand 13.7% protein. We don't have KA flour here AFAIK, and this is the best branded flour I can find at a reasonable price that lists the protein level. It's supposed to be Taiwan's best flour. There are far pricier Japanese imports, as well as Gold Medal Bread here too.
The only yeast is from the small sourdough starter, so I was not expecting it to have a destroyed structure from just an overnight rise, about 10 hours; that's about how long the starter took to double.
I think maybe I just overhydrated it. I'll check the windowpane and work in a little flour to firm it up.
EDIT: I worked in a bunch more flour, kneaded it well by hand, and got a nice firm dough that I could shape. Four boules are rising now, in two linen-lined plastic baskets I rigged up, and two spiral willow brotforms.
EDIT: Baked up fine! Woohoo!
Thanks again, Keith! :)
Absolutely great job on seeing it through to the end! Hopefully next time around you can be more patient with the initial mix. I would highly suggest you autolyse for 45 mins to 1 hour before you start handling it for gluten development and/or making any adjustments to the hydration.
Here's what I ended up with:
When I finished shaping the boules and got them into bannetons, there was a whole bunch of distractions in the house (bedtime for the kids). I tossed the bannetons into the fridge WITHOUT COVERS! Arrgh!! heheh About 2 hrs later, I realized this, and brought them out to put in the oven bags I use for this purpose. I noticed that they had both already begun to develop thick skins (unfortunately, this phenomenon is exacerbated in the refigerator!). I was pretty bummed, but what can you do... I just went to bed.
The next day, I awoke and took the first one out, thawed for 90 mins and tossed it into the oven. With such a thick skin, it's hard to judge your proof quality... it was underproofed. Two things happened. The crust was unable to expand much to accomodate the bloom, so I got very little spring and good sized blowout. That's the loaf we're currently eating, and is on the left. I took the second loaf out, and decided to try and soften up the skin. I boiled some water in the micro to get it hot and VERY steamy in there, and placed the banneton in there. I left it for 2 hours, and came back to find it was much softer, and definitely not underproofed. I slashed it and tossed it in the oven with much better results. Now the loaf expanded in all directions, so it ended up looking like a normal boule. I can tell the crust is thicker than I would normally want, but anytime you save a disaster is a win! Since it won't be cut into until tomorrow, I expect a ton of flavor from it, and the crumb will look similar but more uniform. Here's another shot of the saved boule:
Bunka Bunka approved, of course! He just loves the sourdoughs, which I thought was more of an adult taste... but he eats this stuff like it's candy. He's never had a slice of Wonder bread, and hopefully he won't ever need to! ; D
- Keith
Sorry I missed all the fun, you two, but you did a great job!
Remember that the dough will change dramatically between mixing and the end of resting. What seemed dry at mixing will be pliable and soft after resting.
Your flour sounds perfect, Kent. Congrats on finding it.
And Keith, I'm happy to be a regular part of your baking rotation!
Susan from San Diego
Thanks Susan -
This recipe saved me from dispair on many levels. First, all my previous sourdough adventures were not rewarding in the taste department. Secondly, they were all tedious. I don't have much time to fuss with artsy fartsy stuff... would love to, but it just isn't practical, and I just need to get the best bread possible to the table each week.
This recipe finally produced as good of results as you could expect from a bakery, taste-wise, if not even better. Then you have the fact that it is so simple... I'm allowed to mix in the morning, ferment until evening, shape and toss it in the fridge, then bake the next morning. For a busy dad, this recipe was just such a gift... I can't thank you enough for sharing it with us!
I wondered at one point if sourdough might just end up a luxury item for us, but thanks to this recipe, it's a staple item.
- Keith
Susan wrote:
Thanks, that's good advice! I'm one of those novice bakers who needs to be told things like "at this point the dough will seem dry; don't adjust, as it will change after resting". In other words, recipes need to be idiot-proofed, LOL. BTW, how long does your initial mixing go on, about 1-2 minutes? And how long does it usually take for your folding ("Do the following until the dough is hard to fold: round up, let the dough relax, stretch and fold.") to finish?
Now I just need to try it again, without all the adjustments, to see what it was *supposed* to turn out like, ha ha!
Dear Susan, I baked this loaf (shaped like your very first loaf) and baked it exactly as you explained in your first recipe: on enameled baking pan, covered with oven-proof glass bowl. I even used a b l u e enameled pan, lol.
Wow. What a bread! Extraordinary, indeed. Thank you, Susan. I will now try every recipe from your blog. It's good food. Really good for eating, smelling, seeing, touching, everything. And it has a distinct sourdough character, because, in a sense, it is made from sourdough starter, instead of with sourdough starter. This method of introducing salt into ripe refreshed starter and making it into a loaf of bread, combined with no-need-to-knead technique is very, very clever. Congratulations!
THANK YOU, SUSAN
mariana
wow mariana that looks gorgeous, i would like to attempt this bread. will post back with results. i am very new to sourdough :) thanks mini for directing me to this link :)
earlier in the day, i took ten grams of my fridge starter and fed it 30g of water adn 40g of flour, after reading all posts here. also, put it in the microwave. although not with the cup of boiling water. maybe that would've speeded up the process a little.
jus had a peek and its grown!!
not sure though, what to do now. how do i know if its ready to turn into the dough? thanks, hope i have success like everybody elses gorgeous looking boules :)
oh no! i've jus re read some posts and after refreshing my usual starter in the 1:3:4 ratio, i didn't put in the fridge immediately! i guess the purpose is to make it easier to fit in with ur timing? i don't know. still learning :)
i'm thinking though, that maybe i should mix up my dough now. i wonder is it too late to throw it in the fridge?
jus to update, i ended up mixing the first dough last night before i slept. and i did four times the recipe. what the?! i was thinking how is that little blob going to raise all that dough, but wow, i am always amazed when the next morning its a lovely risen dough, all airy inside :)
so now, i guess i add the salt and do the stretch and folds. i sure started this at the wrong time though, lol, or maybe its the one thing that will keep me sane? lmao
jus to assure everyone, im not crazy, lol, i just have a big day today. happy baking :)
back again, lol. sorry for rambling, but jus had to say this is a gorgeous dough :) been doing stretch and folds throughout the day on and off, had to regrigerate. and the dough has firmed up lovely. hope the end product turns out great. susan are u still out there? thanks for sharing :)