As someone who was motivated to make the sourdough journey because I wanted to bake ryes, I've wondered about this for a while: in my experience, lots of artisan bakeries make excellent wheat breads, but few make good ryes.
Do you think this is true? If so, why? And which bakeries would you urge me to go to to get good ryes?
Thanks!
Rob
This is going to very dependent on the country, isn't it? I would expect to find many more good ryes in Germany than the US, for example, and the ideas of what a rye bread should be will vary too.
TomP
for sure, Tom, I've had great ryes in Switzerland and would expect them to be great in Germany and in the Baltics and Russia and Scandinavia. But I'm based in NYC and was really referring to the 'rye bread situation' in the U.S. -- which I believe could be classified as a national disaster🤣
There are two small bakeries near me that sometimes make rye breads. I'm sure they are nothing like hardcore European ryes, nor like Jewish deli style either, but I like both of them. They look dark, are dense but not too dense, have a relatively soft crumb, and taste rich and a little sweet. They make for good toast.
By contrast, the only "real" pumpernickel I've had has been the kind imported from Germany in little packages. I haven't like them much at all. But then I haven't put smoked fish or similar on them, so maybe it's not a fair assessment.
It doesn't pay for most folks. Enjoy!
I'm like you, I created a rye sourdough starter so I could make rye breads. There are so many styles of rye breads, and virtually none of them are readily available. I believe most Americans do not like the taste of rye breads, or even whole wheat breads, so most bakeries won't bake those breads.
One bakery that was mentioned by Stanley Ginsberg on his website is Black Rooster Food. They advertise authentic Latvian rye breads and several stores in NYC sell their breads.
It's not just Americans. Most people prefer white and wheat. Always had. Historically, rye and whole grain are breads of need and necessity.
Need & necessity are my thing!
Your post sent me down a rye trail on the web and I found this fantastic 1998 article, from the fabled NYTimes reporter Johnny Apple: https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/15/dining/the-miracle-of-rye-in-germany-and-among-some-here-rye-bread-is-a-spiritual-thing.html?unlocked_article_code=1.B1A.zzRe.FBe98dFETXvQ&smid=url-share
As the head of the Berlin baker's guild told him, "Misery time is bread time.''
Rob
I enjoyed reading it.
Paul
thanks, a! I'm gonna track down some Black Rooster.
My brother thought the same thing you do: people just don't want ryes. I guess that's where my commitment to "power to the people" falls apart.🤣🙃
Rob
In my little orbit of baking friends and recipients, I am the only one who regularly bakes 100% ryes and whole grains, and prefers eating them.
The rest falls pretty much along gender lines. The females like breads white, sweet, and soft. The guys like texture aka "chew", crunchy crusts, and more of a variety of flavor.
I doubt that generalisation would hold up among this forum's participants, but it's true here.
The thing is, if I make a wheat loaf with 30% wholegrain flour I can do most things with it - accompaniment, sandwiches, open sandwiches, toast.
Whenever I make a rye bread with 60% wholegrain rye or more, I never really know what to do with it. OK, we don't eat meat, which doesn't help, but the options are much more limited.
I would also point out that if you look at sites like homebaking.at, the rye flour often used is T960/T997 light rye, so even in Austria and Germany my thoughts are that full on wholegrain rye loaves are pretty niche.
Lance
I understand that issue with rye breads and another member of the household is definitely not a rye fan. My problem breads are ones that have a lot of strong-flavored add-ins, like garlic or onion. I might not want that for breakfast, and probably not with jam. I will add the traditional rye bread spices (caraway, fennel, coriander, etc.), but those usually don't overpower the bread.
I generally follow a vegetarian diet, too, and I'll have hummus on rye bread for lunch. I also eat some (about once a week) tinned fish like herring, mackerel, or the occasional tuna or sardines. The other day, I made a grilled smoked cheddar cheese sandwich with the Finnish Malt Bread from Ginsberg's website. I even like rye breads toasted for breakfast.
In the USA, I have very little rye flour available to me and from the conversations, years ago, with Stan Ginsberg, TFL poster and author of "The Rye Baker", the American rye flour behaves totally differently than ryes available elsewhere in the world. That is a big factor that is reflected in the quality of the bread made as a result of this quality issue. Hodgsen Mill used to be my only source and when that mill was sold, they discontinued selling their rye. Now the only rye I have available is boutique-either in price,brand or quantity. It is usually well over $3-$8/lb, and possibly more if there is a big shipping cost. It puts my rye baking into the "rarely" category. As I age and experience health issues and income effects that reduces all my baking to "rarely", rye baking has become "almost never".
My favorite ryes are Stan's Softige, MiniOven's 100% RYE formula and a good, thick homemade pumperknickle style bread with dates and walnuts.
https://theryebaker.com/das-saftige/
Good point. Maybe everything is economic: a 2-lb bag of the upstate NY rye I usually use is around $6 in the supermarket. In Switzerland, a kilo (~2.2 lbs) of organic rye costs 2.95 chf -- about half the price.
Though many stores charge more, organic rye berries and flour can be had locally for $2.40 per 2 lb bag (Natural Grocers). I think it comes from Colorado; I have no complaints on the quality of either.
I can get stone-ground rye flour from a small local restored water mill for $20/4 lb. It's made from locally-grown organic rye. The mill is only 1/2 hour drive so I don't need to pay shipping. Yes, it still seems expensive. Also, I have no idea how this rye behaves compared with European ryes.
It's not that different and there are ways to account for the differences. If you are willing to commit to baking 30-40 breads in a year or so, Great River flour sold on Amazon is $2.40/lb and is about 100 times better than Hodgson Mills.
Bakeries (and every business) stay alive by making and selling things that their customers want to buy. Outside of US cities with significant immigration (or 1-2 generations from immigrants) from rye-eating areas (Northern and Eastern Europe, mainly) there isn't much demand for rye breads in the USA.
Con Pane, a local artisan bakery here in San Diego, CA, bakes one rye bread twice a week. Kozak, a Ukrainian restaurant and bakery in Vancouver, BC makes a couple of ryes and other whole grain breads every day Bakery Counter at Kozak
I started bread baking so that I could get more good whole grain bread, and eventually rye.
Sad but true. Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. -- Rob