Congrats on and thanks for the new forum!
I've had great success with reduced hydration - typically from the 100% suggested in some recipes to around 72%.
I'm using a higher protein flour like Central Mills Organic Artisan Bakers Craft Plus, which is 11.5%.
May I ask, please: in a recipe like the 'White Bread with Poolish' on pages 98 to 101 of Ken Forkish's 'Flour Water Salt Yeast' do I need to reduce the hydration of BOTH the Poolish (Forkish has 500g flour/500g water) AND for the final dough, where he has 500g flour to 250g water?
IOW should my quantities of water be, say, 360g for the Poolish AND 180g for the final dough?
And then take the remaining water and add it till the dough feels right to you. There is SO much variability in hydration due to individual circumstances . I never ever follow anyone’s formula til I have made it at least once . You can always add/ subtract water but it’s best not to add/ subtract flour as it alters your salt ratio. Water doesn’t matter anywhere near as much. You see high and low hydration breads that have every sort of crumb/ crust etc. When the dough feels right stop. Also remember there’s a LOT that happens in a 1 hr autolyse. A too wet dough can become perfect in that hour. Time is your friend. You can always add more water as your bassinage while doing folds.
Hope this answers your question. 🙏c
… I should keep the ratio I have (72%) for the poolish and experiment with the Final Dough?
Thanks, @trailrunner. But in this particular recipe (I wonder, Do you know it, please?), what would be a good starting point (amount of water in mL/grammes) of water?
I know experience helps a lot once I have enough to tell that I've got the right feel.
Would 180g be a reasonable starting point… I want to avoid adding, say, 10g of this and then 10g of that (because at first touch, the dough didn't seem right); and then adding another 5g of this, and that… :-)
I’ve never made any of those formulas . After reading so so many comments over the years on this forum from people who were trying to produce a bread using his measurements I vowed never to venture down that path.
His situation and measurements in temperatures and hydration don’t appear to be replicable by an at home baker .
There are so many examples of tried and true bakers here. David Snyder has been here a bit longer than I have. You can replicate any formula he’s posted without fail.
My suggestion is stop with Forkish til you have made 5-6 of David’s breads. Success with perfect measurements will then set you up for being able to deal with Forkish.
I’m definitely not being difficult or insulting to Forkish. I want you to be confident and assured and a successful bread baker.
🙏c
… @trailrunner!
Thanks. I don't read it that way at all. You're helping - and I appreciate it.
I'm in Southern California, where it's surely much less humid and much warmer than where KF lives and works.
I have a large collection of bread books - but would benefit, I can see, from something written by David Snyder. Would you kindly recommend one, please?
:-) !
San Joaquin Sourdough. I’m having trouble pasting the link. David is in CA as well but nearer SF.
I’ll post in a second
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/53813/san-joaquin-sourdough-two-ways
Nice historical info and excellent directions. I've made it very very often. Good Luck and trust your judgement. c
Thanks so much (again), @trailrunner!
I've got it. Saved as a PDF.
I've also been maintaining a sourdough starter for many years.
But never really had much success: the (final) dough has never really stayed 'buoyant'… good tastes but not even much oven spring.
Now I believe you - and the other posters here - have shown me why.
Would Central Milling's Organic Type 80 Wheat Flour, which is 12.5% protein, or their High Mountain (13.5%) be even better than the Artisan Baker's Craft Plus (11.5%)?
I suppose what I'm asking, please, is: having been (non-terminally) discouraged by loaves which taste OK but are rather cakey and flat, can I assume that - the higher the protein content - the likelier I am to get real 'lift'?
I note that FWSY [pages 49, 50] recommends flours under 12% protein.
Your encouragement much appreciated!
Arrowhead Mills AP . It’s a beautiful flour and Walmart carries it. It’s been my “ go to” flour for years when I want a regular white flour. I mill everything else I use in my kitchen . I bought French flour imported by L’Epicerie t65 and t80 for a number of years and really loved it. But I’ve moved on and I believe weather etc has affected their recent crop characteristics.
I don’t even know what % protein I’m using. I just go for results. I have made all our bread since the ‘70’s. I think I’ve actually thrown out 2 whole batches in that time.
Perhaps simplifying will benefit you . King Arthur was my basic flour before Arrowhead Mills and produced beautiful breads . I used their AP and BF interchangeably. It’s available everywhere.
Try using something simple and follow David’s instructions to a T. It should provide you with great results. Also you can just order a dried starter online from King Arthur . I’d do that for now rather than mess with trying to get one going as you continue your journey as a bread baker. 👍🙏 c
@trailrunner. All noted. Your encouragement appreciated… :-)
I'm going to try DS, San Joaquin next…
I endorse anything that David Snyder has baked. I've learned so much from his posts -- more than I have from any baking book, that's for sure.
That being said, with big respect for trailrunner but as someone who has baked some things from Forkish's FWSY -- some successes and some failures, learning each time -- I'm going to suggest you make the recipe as written. Though the poolish is 100% hydration (poolishes are supposed to be quite wet), don't be fooled: since the remainder is added at 50% hydration, the final dough will be 75% hydration -- which is not all that much beyond the 72% you cite in your post as a comfortable hydration level.
In my experience, the big issues with Forkish's book are fermentation times (he was baking in the Pacific NW, which has a different temp/humidity environment than most of us have) and sizing (some of his formulas seem to produce so much levain that you'd have to bake 2 dozen loaves to use it all.) This one might work -- and if it doesn't you'll have learned something.
Then, after you've figured out what you learned, by all means search out dmsnyder's recipes here and give them a go.
Rob
one other thing: even if you want to do things your way, your math is off.
if you reduce the water to 360g with 500g flour in the preferment and 180g with 500g flour in the final dough you will end up with 540 g of water moistening 1000 g of flour -- or 54% hydration.
Rob
@squattercity
Thanks. Yes - my maths is way off, isn't it :-(
Even as printed, KF has 750 to 1,000.
So my previous failure really come down to the protein content in my flour - and hence to the amount of water which the flour can absorb?
you got it: different flours handle high hydration differently. And it's not just protein level -- though that's a big factor. It's also how it's been stored and the varieties of wheat in the blend and ... a bunch of stuff they don't report on the label.
So def, a 10.5% protein flour would have less absorbency than an 11.5% protein flour.
Try the new flour -- and if it still puddles back off the total hydration to 72% or even a little more. And if that fails, try an even more absorbent brand (King Arthur Bread Flour comes to mind: it is 12.7% protein and stands up to 100% hydration in pan de cristal.)
Rob
PS: As for David Snyder's bakes, try searching dmsnyder on this site & see what you get. I bake many of his rye recipes, but he has posted many wheat breads too. Like I said, I've probably learned more from trying his recipes than from any other single source in the 3 years or so I've been making bread.
Thanks very much, Rob!
All noted.
I suppose your directions and suggestions make me ask how quickly absorbency actually occurs.
IOW if I am - as you are all encouraging me to do - paying more attention to my hands, the feel, how wet (or otherwise (un)manageable) the dough feels during the final mix, should I wait before adjusting the water amount… if there seems an excessive amount of water at first, will a (higher protein) flour absorb remaining water if I wait for it to do so? Or can I tell straight away that I've over-hydrated? Or under-hydrated when a dough is 'shaggy'?
unfortunately. it varies. slap & folds exist to take a splatter dough & make it come together. I've had it happen in my hands and it's amazing. When everything comes together, I feel like I imagine cavemen must have when they created fire. But ...
That's what I'm aiming for. Shall be happy when I can make my dough do that reliably :-)
Thank you, @squattercity!
I actually tried that ratio (with Poolish and Final Dough together to an effective a ratio, as you kindly point out, of 750/1,000; per FWSY's printer page) some time ago - and it was like porridge. I did everything else as suggested. My (huge, as you say!) two loaves were both… "completely flat"!
But - is this significant - with a flour of a much lower (10.5% AP as opposed to 11.5%) protein content. Could that have made all the difference? Surely not!
I was “ flying blind” lol! I don’t do a pooling bread and never Forkish so probably should have stayed mum. Glad you spoke up. 🙏
Edited: see this is why I follow simple formulas!! Rob thank goodness you can “ do figures” as my Dad used to say 👍
No need to stay mum. If I've learned anything about making bread, it's been from taking on things that were way too complex and figuring out the what and why after I pulled the loaves from the oven and ate them. And from reading the write-ups and trying the fantastic recipes posted by people like you and dmsnyder on the fresh loaf.
Rob
I'm not sure what you mean by "great success". Changing from 100% to 72% is a very large change that will change the character of the bread so much that I wouldn't call it the same bread. And example would be going from a glass bread (100%) to a sandwich loaf.
In this recipe, the overall hydration is 75%. What value are you thinking about, and why do you want to go lower?
@tpassin,
I put in an inquiry to the good and helpful team at Central Milling asking why they thought my very first attempt was such a failure. They made two suggestions:
But I didn't calculate such a ratio (75%) from the total of preferment and final dough. As you say, thanks, the original recipe has indeed already done that… 750 to 1,000!
I was so discouraged by my first fat flop that I may have tried to go/gone too far to the other extreme?