I've been dabbling in gluten free again for a friend-trying some different recipes. GF baking has been around a long time and I thought I would turn to some recipes that have a long history. That brings me to rice based Shokupan. I searched on TFL but any of the shokupan references/posts I find are for either wheat- or rye-based milk breads. I found the following recipe and wonder if TFL COllective can help me with this project. I haven't tried it,yet. I was hoping to gather some wisdom or practical insight. This recipe came from TikTok. Someone showed it to me and I jotted it down so, sorry, no link.
BLENDER GF RICE BREAD (with random notes)
100G cooked short grain rice (any leftover rice will do-starchier the better)
150ml hot water
Put both in blender and blend until a very starchy,smooth slurry.
In a large bowl, add above and mix in the rest of the ingredients:
150 ml cold water
4 g salt
25g sugar
5 g instant yeast
10g oil
250g fine rice flour.
(In talking to people and researching recipes, a small amount of baking powder is often used)
Mix thoroughly and place in well-greased loaf pan.
Rise til almost double-spray top with water.
Put in a cold oven set at 375F?? ( I didn't write down temp)
Cool in pan 20 min before removing.
Helps if outside crust is baked to crisp to help support bread and prevent from sinking.
Thoughts? Experiences? Similar recipes?
Thanks!
Getting used to the new site. Wow! 20 yrs!!!!!! I've been here for a lot of them and it has always been a pleasure.
Gotta say, I'm really intrigued by this. I was struggling to figure out why rice flour + yeast (or leavening in general) sounded familiar to me, and I think it's because it sounds a lot like how you make fa gao but baked instead of steamed.
It'd probably produce something bread-like but I'd be really interested to hear if the texture is actually shokupan-like.
I just read a post on this - rice-based sandwich loaves - somewhere but didn't bookmark it. As I remember, it said that using rice flour wasn't enough - you need to add something that will gel more, and I think that something ended up being psillium, and possibly some xanthan gum too. The example loaf looked pretty decent, though nothing beats having one in your own hands.
After reading that, I would be thinking about sticky rice rather than white rice, and I'm pretty sure I've seen sticky rice flour in the local international market..
TomP
I am intrigued with this recipe because it does not have psyllium and/or xanthan gum and yet seems to produce a loaf.
This recipe is an updated version from much older recipes from before xanthan and psyllium and gluten free was ever conceived. The cooked,short grain or sticky rice that is blended in the hot water creates a gel for providing structure but I have my doubts it is as easy as the tiktok person made it seem. I usually use both xanthan gum and psyllium but not everyone can eat them.
I would love to hear hands-on experience from anyone that has made this type of loaf before I dive in.
Interesting that it sounds like steamed buns. I will compare.
Here's a GF loaf that isn't all rice but looks pretty good -
https://www.freshisreal.com/gluten-free-sourdough-without-psyllium/
I can't recall ever making it but I got some left over cooked rice in the fridge from yesterday and heck, why not?
I'll have to check for rice flour though. What size loaf pan do you think we should use?
Mini
I know, I know, you want people who have actually tried it. Still, I can't resist linking this thread. It fills in some details, like pan size, temperature, rice type, and the loaves in the videos look like "real bread".
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67887/100-rice-bread-soft-spongy-gluten-free
After reading the above link and comparing recipes and techniques, decided I'd work with the above recipe and my left over cooked jasmine rice. Used up all my rice flour with perhaps a tablespoon left over. I did add a little more water a spoon at a time nearing 150ml and going over about 30ml until I got the ribbon effect mentioned in the video on the older post. Very handy that. (we shall see) The blender treatment started out very fluid but I would stop for a few minutes and then blend again, each time getting thicker and smoother.
I poured into my old tarnished steel skinny bread tin and decided to go with the baking parchment liner. tin measures 25cm x 10cm and 7cm deep. Filled the lower good third and waiting for the rise. At first seeing a few bubbles pop on the surface sort of scared my hopes for a rise but it is rising with rounded shoulders under plastic wrap. Trick is now not to overproof.
I plan to foil tent it without spraying with water as both methods pretty much do the same deed, one or the other. Won"t be long now and then I'll be coming back and figuring out how to post a pic. Good or bad. Cold oven eh? plan: 150C for 40 min and 200C for 20 min. I hope the jasmine rice gives a nice fragrance. It just fits into my mini oven.
Edit: Oh no, that last cm of rise went way too fast and stuck to my plastic wrap...forgot to oil it and it tore. went clear up to the edge of the pan. and doing some kind of bubbling and churning. hmmmm.
Mini-o-my back baking again. Twenty years TFL! Congratulations Whole Family Floyd!
later: Fail! i removed the foil after 40 min and it had fallen during the first part of baking. (never to return?) Guess I should have knocked it down and let it rise again before baking. Will be better the next time. it's still in the oven. still is one cm below the rim which isn't too bad. crumb will tell. Smells like bread.
I think the "ribbon test" should be talked about a lot more in GF baking. It is probably a great predictor of the structural capability of a dough, And marking the rise-to-double line with a toothpick is such simple genius. Another trick I will employ in all my baking.
I was excited to see your response, MiniOven!! TFL has been a wonderful experience. The world needs a good community example more than ever.
Today I will try this loaf. I have 100g cooked sticky rice and I will probably use the baking instructions from the video. I hope you figure out the picture posting-I'm still behind on that but this bake will be a good initiation.
Agree! So easy to do too! My cooked rice was jasmine scented long rice. Sticky rice might be a surprise. Wonder what will happen. i"m not getting any more rise out my loaf (still in the oven) and it's looking a bit sway backed like an old mare. Still smells good. it will get recycled into dumplings or something. Starting to brown.10 min left on the clock. Dog is hanging out in the kitchen so it probably tastes good.
Lets see. the batter was in the bread pan and covered at 2 o'clock and it"s almost an hour in the oven at 4 o'clock. one hour rising was too long, set a timer! for a 45 min rise?
I can honestly say my flop isn't as flat and compressed as I thought it would be. Texture looks more like a deep sea sponge with lots of bubbles and while it is still warm leaves a gummy knife (to be expected cutting a hot loaf of bread.) The taste is.... well... very new to me but I nibbled down a first and a second little warm sticky slice that seemed to set as it cooled in my hand. Taste....the jasmine rice in it tastes orchid or mild flowers, crispy and tasty dark golden brown outside edges (I can see the recipe as a thinner batter and spooned out like cookies baked on a sheet for crackers.) I don"t know what to think of the flavour. It's new, a little sweet (that"s the sugar) very mild (that's the rice) with a subtle aftertaste at the back of the throat. I think it would easily take on any flavour combined with it. Crumb is white and moist.
I'll do the first bake as written but may cut down the sugar. I might add a little nutritional yeast to my 2nd bake. I find the nutritional yeast gives a slight "bread" flavor that is usually well received by GF folks. The sticky rice I have is a pretty neutral flavor compared to the corn-like flavor of basmati I usually make. Hmm...basmati does not have as much starch as sticky rice but I wonder if a mix would impart a different flavor. So many experiments that could be done!
Kind of like an angel cake texture?? More to come.
I fell down a youtube hole last night and saw similar recipes for a rice flour shokupan, but using only rice flour and no cooked paste - thought I'd try it out since they were supposed to only take 30 min! I followed this video.
But I got this lovely crater and some oven cleaning to do hahaha. I think it was over proofed by probably 10-15 minutes - felt like it started really slow but that last bit of rise was very speedy! And I had to add a fair bit of extra water to get the right flow, probably because my rice flour was old.
The innards actually have a bread-ish texture to them. The taste is... rice-y? And a little yeasty which makes it taste more like bread.
I also came across this blender bread last night and have some rice soaking to try it out! Will report back later today after I make it (and the oven is cleaned lol).
Are not very forgiving at all when it comes to over proofing. The window for a perfect proof is short and if you go over it'll collapse as fast as you can say "Shokupan". Better to err on the side of caution. I haven't studied the recipe but there's no need for two rises. That's good for gluten breads. With some knowledge about gluten free breads (even with no knowledge of shokupan) i'd recommend one rise, err on the side of caution, and bake.
EDIT: Another way, if it is a batter bread and drawing from experience with buckwheat batter bread, is to allow the batter to become very bubbly then gently pour it into a prepared loaf pan and bake straight away.
If the gluten free bread has structure from an added binder then a shape, one rise and bake. If it is a batter bread then allow the mixture to become very bubbly, pour carefully into the loaf pan and bake.
"wait then pour then bake"
Thanks Abe, from what I witnessed that would work too. When I removed the plastic wrap from my over risen loaf the plastic wrap formed a tube around a good bit of dough sticking to it. I wanted to save that dough. I held it up with one hand and squeezed the dough out with the other and it landed right down the middle and length of the loaf and sunk deep into it. I thought that my finished loaf would show a dense section down the middle of the loaf but it didn't. However it did deflate the entire loaf dropping it 1cm down below the pan edge. The bubbly batter reminded me of tapioca pudding only the "pearls" were air bubbles. I don"t think one should wait until the batter is that bubbly. That 1 cm band of dough stuck to the parchment liner made for very crispy collar of crunchies to munch on while waiting for the short loaf to cool. Trimmed it off with a big scissors. :)
My pleasure mini.
I've had gluten free breads come out of the oven looking perfect then as they cooled they sank. I'll have to look at the recipe and video to see the consistency of the dough but if blended it sounds like a batter. With the naturally fermented buckwheat bread it is soaked, blended, allowed to ferment then portioned out into the loaf pan and baked straight away in a preheated oven. If a gluten free bread has something like psyllium husks or some other binder then it gets mixed, portioned out into a loaf pan, allowed to rise (a bit like a rye) then baked. From what you describe it sounds very delicate and won't be able to support a big rise. This actually sounds like an experiment i'd enjoy.
https://youtu.be/8IQuDDOLoyI?si=vGlxkyg-5AOd-chy
The video link has many similarities to my bread bake. The parchment over the risen bread and a simple alu-foil wrap around the whole loaf would have made it easier for me. Trying to shape a tent from foil was clumsy on my part. I see there was also a problem with cling wrap sticking to dough. My baked top crust looked identical. My batter was not as thin, mine - just a tad less water. I also ended up cutting the loaf upside down as the top crust needed more pressure to cut through. Was laughing at myself at this point in the video. My loaf was flatter and not so tall due to over-proofing but I think I have the right pan size volume. the crumb in the video looks finer than mine.
I am trying the original recipe using leftover short grain rice. Made the pseudo-tang zhou by blending the cooked short grain (VERY sticky) rice with hot water and then added the other ingredients (except I forgot the oil). I was too caught up in trying to measure out all the extra water needed to get a bater instead of crumbles. My rice flour is also old and apparently very thirsty. I needed almost double the amount of water than the recipe called for. As a result, I have 2 pans of dough-1 regular loaf size and 1 small. They are rising now-I better keep an eye on them according to you. Timer set. And I think I will put a drip catcher under the pans. :)
My recipe was way off for the amount of water. I need to look at a different recipe. I also need to buy some fresh rice flour. I have brown rice flour-I might give that a go. I only did 2/3 of the sugar and I am surprised to say it needed the full amount. Same with the salt level. I always cut the salt amount as I am pretty much low salt so most recipes are too high on salt for my palate. However, it seems rice is really flavorless and needs all the help it can get. I added nutritional yeast to one of the loaves and it tastes better than the plain.
Besides falling, I believe the baking is tricky ,too. This is a really wet loaf and it really needs to lose a lot of moisture. Next time I'm not tenting it. I will spritz the surface with water and put it into a preheated 375F oven and treat it like a cross between a WW and high rye. It will have to sit for a while after it is cooled before I cut it.
Abe- this very much reminds me of the Buckwheat experiments. Glad to get your expertise. I think this bread would benefit from psyllium/gums but I am trying to achieve a reasonable bread without them.
Tomorrow is another day. Let me know what happens with everyone who is experimenting.
How old was the cooked rice? Mine was at least 24 hours and chilled between. I know that fried rice won"t behave if the cooked rice is too fresh or warm, the starches have to cool and set first.
I cut my rice loaf today and no gummy residue on the knife. Tastes more like bread although still very mild. I decided to make toast and one can get by with only a tiny amount of jam. Still a heavy wet loaf so I cut it up into cubes and oven toasted them until they were golden brown, dry and very (teeth breaking) crunchy. Taste reminds me now of unsweetened rice crispies. Put them in a jar and plan on sinking them in soup.
Or (another experiment) recycle them to flavour a rice bread as crumbs or flour. i will soak a few brickles in boiling water and see if they soften. If they do, blenderize 'em with the hot water for the rice paste?
Also need to get fresh rice flour. That might make all the difference although I kind of like a challenge and flopping around. That last bag was from 2014. (Surprise! Long shelf life?) (A half life of TFL!)
Mini
So I did make that blender rice bread that I linked in my earlier post. I also watched the buckwheat video and I think the process is super similar between the two!
So you can see it looks... less like a crater, at the very least, lol. Apologies for the sideways photos, I guess it's because I'm uploading vertical pictures and typing from my phone.
I made some very minor mods to the recipe, which I will type up in a reply to this when I get back to my computer haha.
Overall the texture is actually not bad. I have definitely had worse gluten-free breads, and I'm very thankful that I actually don't need to cut gluten out of my life haha. It's spongy but has bounce that I associate with a shokupan (or I guess regular bread in general, thanks to the gluten). I took a short video of the bounce and will try to upload that later as well.
The taste is very mild, as we've all commented on. It does have the bread-y taste from the yeast but to me, it just tastes like sweet and bland rice, but in... weird bread form. Not sure how to describe it. It's very moist, almost to the point of being gummy, but not quite.
I could definitely see this as a good gluten-free substitute for shokupan though! It's simple, the ingredients are common, and the bread could potentially even fool someone as containing gluten, if they were not experienced in the ways of bread haha.
And since I do still have slices of my sandwich loaf, here's a comparison of the two:
So you can see the differences for yourself.
Recipe from ChefSteps (very minor changes, and I cut the recipe in half for a mini loaf since I remembered that I actually own a mini loaf pan):
Soak this in water overnight. They say any rice or grain could be used. I picked a short grain Japonica that I have on hand for regular eating, and the variety is Nanatsuboshi (which means seven stars), grown in Hokkaido.
At some point, line your pan with parchment paper. I'm not sure if this is necessary if you have a non-stick pan or you grease it, but I didn't want to have to scrape out a failed bread and mostly put it in for ease of cleaning.
After the overnight soak, drain and reserve water (one of my changes). Put the rice into a blender with:
Blend until it is smooth. I checked the temperature of the batter and it was ~81F.
Add in:
Give it a short blend to distribute the yeast.
Pour batter into the prepared pan and let rise, covered with plastic wrap so you can monitor the progress easily. They say 15-30 min, up to 45 min, until it reaches below the top of the pan. My pan is longer and wider and taller than theirs, so I let it rise until it looked bubbly, which... is inexact, but y'know. It looked like a bread dough that was fully proofed, and did take about 30 minutes.
While batter is rising, preheat oven to 365F.
They say to bake for 35-40 min in a conventional oven, and 30-35 min in a convection. What I did was 30 min in the oven on a rack places in a baking sheet full of water, then 5 min in my toaster oven to brown the top (removing the loaf pan was easier than removing a tray full of hot water lol), because it was very pale. And then another 5 min on 325F in the toaster oven after I removed the bread from the pan and parchment, to brown the sides and bottom (covering the top with foil), since I didn't realize how pale and soft they actually were. So there's some refinement that could be done here, haha.
I did not try to slice it while it was warm, because it was pretty late when it came out of the oven, but I imagine it would be super gummy. They also recommend letting it fully cool. I left it out, uncovered, in my dry Canadian condo, and the bread is still very moist.
I,also, tried the Blender Bread from Chef Steps but my outcome was much different. I soaked 350 G Mahatma brand long grain rice (he did say any rice could be used) overnight. I discarded the water (actually it is going into my shower for use as a hair rinse). I stuck to the recipe except I added 2 tbsp nutritional yeast for flavor. The batter came together nicely, I filled the pan to a little over half full, it rose to less than double in about 25 minutes and was placed in a preheated oven with a wet towel in the oven in a casserole dish to provide steam. After 10 minutes it looked great but at the 15 minute mark it collapsed. I continued baking for another 15 minutes and took it out. So disappointing.
So what will I do different next time.
If these 2 attempts fail, I will try to add some psyllium. It is the least problematic of the GF baking structural ingredients for most people.
Heere is a picture of my sorry loaf:
Is it like a pancake batter?
Yes- it is a thick,pourable batter consistency.
I used a long grain rice that the original recipe author claimed was entirely do-able. After dissecting this loaf, I believe that even though the rice was soaked for 18 hrs, it still did not have enough starchy gel to support the loaf. Stellar used the same recipe but a stickier rice and was successful. So, my next strategy is to try a stickier rice and see if I can be successful.
I am trying to develop a rice-based recipe that is easy for a casual baker to make with simple, commonly available ingredients and, hopefully, without gums. I was attracted to this recipe because of its simplicity. Not so simple, I'm finding.
Oh no! That's a huge difference and really unfortunate. I used a half recipe since I didn't want to suffer another cratered failure. I didn't monitor my bread as it was in the oven, because I didn't want to watch it fall in real-time lol, but maybe I should have, for more details for the experiment.
The Chef Steps recipe uses jasmine rice, which doesn't have much "stick" to it, so I'm not sure if the rice type was the problem. I was 50/50 on using jasmine or the short grain I ended up with - ended up picking the one I had for dinner, to save the effort on washing rice haha. I don't think I had too many deviations from the base recipe before baking (save the water, add the yeast later). Actually I'm not sure if there was any comment on washing the rice, since I just wash all rice out of habit.
I wonder if your batter may have been over proofed, if you added the yeast and blended it with everything? I made sure to add the yeast later since I wasn't sure how hot my blender would make the batter.
My pan is 7" x 3" x 3" and the batter only came up maybe 1/3 of the way. I put it into the oven at about 2/3 full after ~30 min, but hard to really say since I had a black pan and lots of parchment regardless. I've set the thermostat in the condo to be ~22C, if that's another data point that would be helpful. Since the recipe says 15-30 min if you get up to the "correct" temperature with blending, maybe 25 min is too long? There's a lot more heat that would stay in a larger mass too.
Fermenting it first, until it is well risen and bubbly, then pour it into a prepared loaf pan and bake in a pre-heated oven straight away.
This recipe has a really big amount of yeast, in my opinion. The yeast population must have just taken off, sitting for 30 minutes making bubbles in a very liquid batter and then it hits the oven heat and the bubbles must have just expanded quickly. The rapid expansion of the bubbles must have outrun the heat-setting of the crumb and the bubbles merge and then collapse. Abe's idea of pouring the fermented batter into a pan might actually break the bigger bubbles and since it is immediately put into the oven, the smaller bubbles are only able to expand a little bit before setting in place, thus producing a finer crumb that is easier for the gel to support. It must be do-able as you were able to achieve a great texture. As simple as this recipe and concept is, it is definitely challenging.
With batter breads if done this way. If the bread has a binder then it is the opposite. You mix the dough, put it into the loaf pan for one rise and then bake (careful to not let it rise too much). For a batter bread allow it to become bubbly (like a levain) then portion it out into a loaf pan and bake straight away. It'll bake like a cake. Also, make sure it is fully baked before removing from the oven.
For baking a batter bread which is very hydrated i'd recommend 350F for 50 minutes to 90 minutes. Depending on the oven sometimes it can be longer.
See the video I linked in reply to MiniOven above. Buckwheat bread is very similar when done this way. If you don't wish to go down the natural ferment route then soak the groats, blend and then add yeast or a little starter. Before portioning it out into the loaf pan you can even add some seeds. Mixing it gently in will be fine. It'll have more than enough bubbles to rise enough. Buckwheat groats create a gel when soaked so it works really well this way.
I've done buckwheat and loved the community bake-learned a lot. I really want to try and master this rice bread. Rice is a cheap and a very accessible ingredient here. Buckwheat is hard to source locally and very expensive by comparison.
works very well with buckwheat but i'm not sure it'll suit everything. However the method seems to be similar albeit with added yeast. It makes sense to me, other than the source of fermentation, that everything else would work very much the same way. After it has been soaked and blended add the yeast and proceed as in the video when it is well risen.
I look forward to the results.
I've been following this thread with interest, if only to glean the way to do it.
Sometime back someone (Abe? Lance, perhaps?) shared a link to similar rice breads made with a blender and with dry rice soaked for only 2 hours or so (short grain and they say avoid glutinous rice). Here's the bookmarks I saved: YouTube and George Lee on Instagram. Strange that it is somewhat different to what we're talking about here which seems to involve cooked rice instead or are they actually the same thing or similar enough?
At the time (a couple of years ago?) I tried making the version above, and ended up with something that could be charitably called a giant rectangular mochi. Without the red bean paste!
-Jon
Rewatching the video and it looks like the method Stellar used is very similar!
Perhaps it is time to try again for me.
https://youtu.be/67QigDZ_M0g?si=BZ7dTS8FU72TWBNl
The cooked rice is the binder. It acts a bit like a tangzhong. It isn't pourable and has more structure so after blending it goes straight into a loaf pan for a single rise then baked from a cold oven.
So I switched recipes. I wanted to try all rice flour but still have a source of gel-similar to a tang zhong. I found this recipe early in the process and decided I would make this one but incorporate Abe's thought on raising it in the bowl, pour it into the pan and bake immediately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgABLIZ3chA
This recipe uses all rice flour. For whatever reason, I needed to use almost double the amount of flour to attain the correct texture as seen in the video. My rice flour is pretty finely ground and it is very thirsty.
Stir in a small bowl:
10 g rice flour
25 g boiling water
***************
In another bowl-stir in:
150 g rice flour
15 g sugar
2.5 g salt
2.5 g yeast
110-145 g warm water.(I needed to use a total of 255 g!!)
Mix for 5 minutes and then add:
10g oil.
This produced a thick batter that barely poured out.
****************************************************
Here is where I deviated from the instructions and followed Abe's idea. I let the dough raise in a warm place in the bowl for about 40 minutes-it was nice and bubbly. I poured the batter in a prepared pan and immediately placed it in a preheated 350F oven. At the 15 minute mark, the dough looked good but had not risen much at all-if anything it looked like the whole loaf had uniformly decreased in height. It looked like there was less dough in the pan. After about 45 minutes it looked/felt done. No browning and I didn't do anything to change that. I cut it after it cooled.
I know the pan was too big but the bubbles are better distributed. The crumb is still like a stiff porridge when you chew it-too moist for my liking. The taste was not bad- sugar/salt levels and yeast level was better balanced. I am a little amazed that there is so little browning on these loaves despite the sugar.
I will try one more bake using this recipe and method but with a few tweaks-maybe let the dough sit before adding the yeast so the flour fully hydrates? Brush with milk to encourage browning? Try a hot oven and then turn down? Any other ideas?
May work better if allowed to rise in the bread pan but you over proofed it in the first place. Afterall the consistency of the 'dough' in the recipe is not quite like the buckwheat bread I make. Now you have done the opposite and have gotten better results why not try again, allow it to rise in the bread pan (as in the recipe), but this time be careful to not over proof.
I've never done rice bread before. The method I described works very well for a buckwheat batter bread and gets far better rise. Perhaps rice is a different beast altogether. Still a step in the right direction.
I should try this myself. However, I do have a buckwheat bread on the go so it'll be a little while before I get around to it.
P.s. I have an idea. If you don't like the texture why not blend it up again, with just enough water, a little yeast and some sugar, to make a thick paste. Don't make it runny or pourable. Add it back into the loaf pan and allow it to rise till just under double then bake.
I made the blender bread from ChefSteps again, because I was interested in how to really nail down the parts to make it... repeatable and bread-like.
One is with the same rice as before (short grain japonica) and the other is a jasmine rice - they're the two types I have on hand for regular meals haha.
I could tell immediately at the blend step that they were not going to work out. It felt like grains didn't hydrate fully and thus were still gritty after blending. It didn't become a smooth batter and definitely had noticeable grain pieces in it. I think this is the main problem. I had left them sitting in water for probably 12h. My previous try, it was maybe closer to 18h, so perhaps that's it? I also skipped the washing step this time, so I think I would definitely recommend washing the rice first. If anything, I think it gets water to be more evenly distributed. I also wonder if regularly stirring the rice while it's soaking would help hydrate things fully.
Anyway, back to the bread. The rest was the same as before - rise in the pan and then into a steamy oven. I did make the second bake to develop the crust more efficient - popped it out and put it into the toaster oven for 5 min on 350F.
This one is the jasmine rice batter, right after I poured it into the pan. You can even see the grittiness - those aren't air bubbles!
This is the short grain rice, after rising. It's not a big difference (the batters pretty much looked the same) but it's slightly bubblier and did grow a little bit.
In terms of crumb, though... You can see how my first attempt (left) was much better than the jasmine (middle) and short grain v2 (right). I did the short grain one after the jasmine and had the idea to blend it further, but still couldn't get it to be as smooth as the first try! You can also see that I over proofed the jasmine loaf as well, from the collapse. I think the heavier grains also made it more difficult to get a "bread" texture. This time, the inside definitely feels more like rice bits that were mashed together to form a bread shape, but none of the qualities I'd associate with bread or rice. They both even seem a little undercooked (grains are slightly crunchier than I would like if I were eating them as rice)!
So I think thorough blending and an extremely smooth batter is pretty key to this recipe.
Actually, while writing this, it reminded me of how water milled glutinous rice flour (shiratamako) is made. You can see this water milling process in the first few minutes of this youtube video from a mochi store in Taiwan. You can see how smooth the "batter" is when they pour it into the drying machine!
I'm not sure how much of a difference wet vs dry milled rice flours would change a bread recipe like this (it does make a difference in making mochi, but that's steamed and we're baking things here) but in this blender bread's case, where we are wet milling by definition, I think we need a fully hydrated grain that can be blended extremely finely and smoothly.
Another thought I had is why not just steam the bread, since we're not picking up any colour in the oven, and then get a "crust" afterwards. I'm already throwing these experiments into the toaster oven! Maybe a steamer would give more consistent results?
I believe your observation re: the fineness of the flour is correct- it is hard to achieve the fineness needed for an even, bread-like crumb by just soaking the rice and blending. But, of note, the crumb of my loaves have been very moist-just like steamed breads- even though they were made in the oven. One of the posters above commented on that this idea (rice and yeast) sounded much like the recipe for steamed mochi buns. Unlike steamed buns, the crumb texture was coarse and the bubble uneven. It didn't seem to matter if they were blended with bits or made with a fine rice flour. I .I believe that characteristic has to do with the yeast being overactive and the lack of a structural component.
I switched to an all commercial rice flour recipe and may continue down that path a bit. I have an old bag of very finely milled rice flour sourced from an Indian market. I think the fineness is why it is SO thirsty. I have to double the amount of water or I have a thick, clay dough that is hardly shapable. I believe the dough needs to have a wet consistency but I will thicken it a bit on the next run.
It still needs some structural component (protein or fiber) and I am wrestling with what to use-egg, flax, psyllium? I am still trying to avoid the gums. I have made an all ground flax bread/bun in the past and it is surprisingly do-able. Same with buckwheat-thanks to Abe. Another GF flour (sorghum, millet or buckwheat) would work to improve the crumb but these flours are much less available and much more costly for daily bread, IMO. They also have very distinctive flavors. Sorghum & millet are very bitter to me.
I also believe the ChefSteps recipe has FAR too much yeast. The dough is much too active. I was even toying with the idea of adding a pinch of yeast to an overnight soak of the rice flour and water-an autolyse. This would hydrate the flour and possibly add a little more fermentation flavor. I would also reduce the yeast by 75% in that recipe to give more control over the fermentation.
As far as bubbles-this loaf needs a lot of fine bubbles to allow the crumb to dehydrate more as it bakes. Many of the sites I looked at added baking powder and I am not opposed to that in order to achieve a better crumb.
Your experiments are enlightening, and I really appreciate them. I wonder if cooking the rice will result in a better crumb. One of the zillion recipes I looked at used "any leftover cooked rice". Interesting journey- non-wheat based bread from commonly available ingredients.
Thank you.
Here's a page that discusses the elements needed to succeed making bread from rice. It uses brown rice but says any rice will do. One key is to use baking powder as well as yeast. This prevents the sunken top -
https://www.powerhungry.com/2023/09/29/flourless-brown-rice-yeast-bread/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
Here is a video of a rice bread made using a tangzhong, an overnight cold retardation, and a combination of rice and tapioca starch -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5c3OgRzuHc
The you tube using a tang zhong method and a retard are similar to what I wanted to try next, as well as the addition of baking powder. I was also contemplating using milk as liquid, both for flavor and browning. That recipe checks a lot of boxes.
The Powerhungry recipe I am a bit skeptical about. Most of the comments sound very similar to what I am experiencing- sinking, too fast rising, wet crumb. Not too many successful comments.
Just replenished my rice flour stock so ready to try again.
Thanks!
Lol, yes, I was also the one who pointed out the similarities between a rice flour shokupan and fa gao, which is not a mochi bread but more accurately described as a rice flour cupcake. Here is a recipe for fa gao which uses whole jasmine rice, both uncooked and cooked, that is blended. They have a video where you can see the fluffy texture using only rice and no other "structural" components. In fact, I might try to adapt this to make a shokupan instead of dealing with the ChefSteps recipe again!
Upon reading more about the differences between mochiko and shiratamako, where the primary difference is dry vs wet milling, I think the "thirstiness" of the rice flour might actually be due to the milling method. Most mochi methods that use mochiko (dry milled) are at a 1:2 flour:water ratio, while shiratamako (wet milled) are at 1:1 ratios. Shiratamako is also finer than mochiko on a granular level, due to the wet milling, so if fineness were the differentiator, you would expect shiratamako to be "thirstier". But I think the wet milling process makes a difference here!
I also think that, since most of the rice flour shokupan recipes are coming out of Japan, they potentially have access to a wet milled non-glutinous rice flour, which is leading to the mismatch in water content. I remember one of the youtube videos saying to use "confectionary-use rice flour" so that could potentially be the difference here.
Definitely agree that there's way too much yeast being used in the ChefSteps recipe though. I use less yeast in my regular full-sized sandwich bread recipe and this one is just a half loaf! It makes for a very unwieldly baking experience. I'm wondering if that's because they're also using it to contribute to the flavour, in which case, your nutritional yeast addition would suffice. Potentially they also wrote the recipe for the average person who doesn't want to ferment something, they just want a quick bread.
I just bought a new bag of rice flour so I'll see if this bag is as thirsty.
Tpassin posted an interesting youtube that I might incorporate into my next try. using milk for flavor and browning, baking powder, tang zhong and a retard to hydrate the flour. I believe using those tools may also help to overcome the difficulty of using whole rice blended rather than rice flour.
Onward and upward.
Aran Goyoaga's gluten free bread making methods emphasize using fine brown rice flour. In the book "Cannelle et Vanille" it says,
"SUPERFINE BROWN RICE FLOUR. This is probably the most vital ingredient in my baking recipes. I rely on it heavily because of its finely milled texture, which allows liquids to be absorbed well, resulting in baked goods less prone to being crunchy and overly crumbly. The downside is that a superfine grind is not as readily available as other rice flours. My go-to brand is Authentic Foods (see this page), which is not as readily available as other brands (check their website for retailers). Regular brown rice flour can be substituted in my recipes, but the end product will be a bit crumblier and its texture slightly coarser."
The recipes in that book are never only just rice flour however, even though it is usually the main flour in the gluten free breads.
Also, with the methods in that book there is normally a very long baking time, for example for gluten-free boules the book says to bake at 500F for 45 covered in Dutch ovens, followed by a further 50 minutes uncovered at 450F! The book says, "You will notice my gluten-free bread recipes bake for a long time, some nearly 90 minutes. That is because the recipes are high in moisture—you must give that moisture time to evaporate and for the crumb to set. So even if your bread looks baked on the outside, it will need all that time to set on the inside."
She has some interesting things to say on GF baking and I really appreciate the link, but I am very skeptical of her baking method. I really question baking any loaf for 45 min at 500F covered and then for 40 additional minutes at 450F uncovered. She is talking about a pullman-sized loaf-not a huge boule. I would think the loaf would be too overbaked. With whole grain and rye loaves, generally the loaf is baked longer but LOWER temperature so that the moisture from the crumb dries out adequately. If I baked WW/rye loaves as she describes I am sure I would have a very dark and impenetrable crust and a gummy/moist interior as the crust would have sealed before the interior moisture could escape.
That being said, I will try for a longer bake but probably at 375F-covered or steamed 40 min and then uncovered 40 min.
Other opinions on this?
ALL suggestions are appreciated and are being incorporated into my next bake-probably today-it is awfully cold here in Florida!
Thank you,JonJ!
I've been following this thread with interest but unable to properly bake and contribute ideas because I'm away from my kitchen. But I do bake, steam and cook a lot of fermented rice products in my daily life so just contributing a few thoughts:
Additional notes:
On rice bread that uses rice flour:
I apologize that I'm unable to try these out myself at the moment! I hope this would be helpful in some way nonetheless.
-Lin
White rice always comes enriched with vitamins and minerals, and there are several different ways the enrichment is applied. Some of these wash off more easily when the rise is rinsed than others. What comes off to make the rinse water milky is not only the rice's starch but also some of the enrichment coating. I wonder if some of the difference in results comes from the different enrichment treatments between brands of rice. I don't think I've ever seen this information on the packaging.
Lin, do you have any insight into this?
TomP
I've actually never had enriched rice. I would think that not many Japanese rice brands (since make of the recipes are coming from Japan) carry fortified rice.
Given that the soaking water of enriched rice will therefore contain both starch and minerals, it seems to me wise to certainly use it to make the loaf batter. What I'm wondering now is if enriched rice itself might somehow be lower in starch due to the treatment and the batter therefore unable to hold together when baked? Is risotto rice in US supermarkets also typically enriched? Maybe using that might be a better option.
Enrichment is not mandatory in the US for any food product (I think there is one exception). Even the enrichment of wheat flour is voluntary, though there is apparently a nation-wide agreed practice among large millers to do so. There are requirements about how much and which nutrients can be added and labeled if a product is enriched.
I read a long article about rice enrichment a year ago, and I didn't realize that rice in the US might not be treated. Now I've looked at the three different bags of Japanese-style white rice in my pantry and I see that none of them have labeling about being enriched.
There was a time when you really wanted to wash rice because it was coated with talc (I'm not sure which kinds were so coated), but apparently those times are long gone. I think that some rice is produced with a coating of cereals not for enrichment but in lieu of the talc to protect the grains of white rice. If so, it wouldn't have to show up on the label, at least in the US. I just found this quote (from https://www.realsimple.com/food-recipes/cooking-tips-techniques/how-to-rinse-rice):
If this is right, I would think that using all the soaking water would be a good thing for these rice breads.
Got home yesterday and tried a 85% hydration rice flour loaf. It works, and there's some browning. There was too little batter for my pan, so it was not as tall as I wanted it to be. Toasts well.
That looks darn good. What kind of rice flour did you use?
Just the standard rice flour I get from the Asian grocery store. I alternate between Thai, Vietnamese and Indonesian brands, whatever is available. This time I had an Indonesian brand, I believe.
I've been looking through many recipes of these rice breads and they all seem to be a variation on a theme.
Rice flour + Tangzhong as the binder.
I've seen eggs as a binder as well in some gluten free recipes. Take for instance this buckwheat flour bread recipe...
Ingredients:
From this YouTube video:
https://youtu.be/lXALprqRWIE?si=mrQY3zvNBqAxE23g
So why not use this and come up with something of your own. First try it with just swapping the buckwheat flour for rice flour. See how that works. Aim for the same consistency so add the water slowly till it looks right. Then you can adapt it further and perhaps add a tangzhong and see how if that is an improvement. You could swap the eggs for a tangzhong using the same weight (or should that be volume?) or add a tangzhong in addition to the eggs.
I have been reading, looking at all kinds of recipes and thinking on the next recipe to try. When all is said and done, it looks like the next recipe will be similar to the buckwheat in many ways but made with white rice flour, a rice flour tangzhong ( to replace the gel effect of the buckwheat), a cold retard and longer bake. The recipe under consideration calls for some tapioca starch that I want to replace with corn starch (again, more readily available) and I might incorporate an egg for protein.
Buckwheat has such great properties for making GF bread but it is not locally available to me except at a Health Store and it is very expensive to consider using for daily bread. I can easily make good GF bread if I used sorghum, millet, teff, tapioca starch, etc but almost none are consistently locally available, and I am looking for the challenge of the simplest, locally available, cheap ingredients. I am using rice flour now but I may develop a whole grain rice recipe, also. Keeps me busy and it is satisfying work.
My goal is a simple recipe and locally available, cheap ingredients to make a GF daily bread for toast or sandwich.
https://youtu.be/2omv7oQBSV0?si=3SmAOINhZDur-Xt9
Does anyone have any idea what he does to the rice before soaking? Is this a necessary step for the bread being made?
And if you don't have an appliance that does the same thing what rice should one use instead? Bought from the store 'ready zapped'.
I can't make it out either. It's got a stirring blade, and no liquid is involved, so it's almost like the rice gets toasted. It's obviously not acitually cooked. The device has two setting controls, presumably speed and something else.
I consulted ChatGPT and it seems that the device is probably a rice polisher. That would explain why the initial rice looked dark like brown rice. They have two controls, for speed and pressure. The chatbot said that many Japanese have a polisher because they think the rice tastes better when freshly polished.
It does look like it starts off as wholegrain rice and ends up as white rice. And it reminded me of pearled grain (which is polished) but how does what looks like a blender do that?
It seems that the starches from soaked rice is enough to act like a binder. So from what I can see in these recipes is when rice flour is used they make a tangzhong but when whole rice is used soaking is enough.
I don't remember whether the soaking water was discarded or used in the bread. My feeble memory is that it was discarded but I'm hazy about it.
But, i'm thinking, because of the soaking the rice becomes sticky enough to hold the bread together.
I found this machine on Amazon and the first review was by a person polishing bran off of wheat. Apparently, in Japan, people feel that polishing rice "freshens" it and is a common appliance in the Japanese kitchen.
Amazon.com: Yamamoto Electric household rice milling machine MICHIBA KITCHEN PRODUCT Takumiajimai White MB-RC52W : Home & Kitchen
Who knew?
And types of polished rice it is telling me it's the same thing as white rice. That machine just removes the bran and germ.
This beautiful loaf from a very simple recipe came out looking perfectly crumbed and beautifully browned with no sugar or baking powder and baked for only 30 min in a 350F oven. Given the experiences I've had and youtubes I've seen, this is almost unbelievable. Other recipes and youtubes have suggested 500F for 40 min and another 40 min at 400F in order to bake out enough moisture. Baking powder/no baking powder, a little yeast/ a lot of yeast, rise to double/DON'T rise to double, thick batter-not pourable/ very thin batter, MUST pass ribbon test/ not necessary to pass ribbon test. Yikes! Almost as confusing as the advice for sourdough starter maintenance!
Onward.
Was quite simple and followed the suggestions I got from recipes online.
300g rice flour, 235g water, 20g oil, 2g yeast, 3g salt. I did not use baking powder. Mixed this to thick batter stage, left to rise at 22 degrees for about two hours till doubled. This batter became stiff and almost cakey, but when stirred became a thick batter again. I then rose it in the loaf pan to X0.5 and baked it at 180 degrees for 35 mins. The centre was not gummy at all and the taste was quite good. I think single fermentation would work too, but maybe the taste might be more bland. We finished them all as toast this morning.
Are you still interested in nailing down the blended rice recipe? I could get started on that too!
Has no binders not even the sticky residue of soaked or cooked rice.
I quite like the idea of using whole rice, whether cooked or soaked, as that is easier to find. And a recipe which works with any rice, not some special rice one has to track down. In other words as easy as possible.
Thank you, II433.
Try other things - but when it come down to it - it pays to stick to what ya know. Enjoy!
Don't seem to need additional binding ingredients. In my experience as long as the mixture is not risen too quickly with enormous amounts of yeast, it can hold its shape in the loaf pan and withstand additional rise when being cooked. Most of my experience before this, however, has been from steaming fermented rice products.
Let me try the soaked rice loaf too. I will continue from what stellar has left us (the points I listed in an earlier post a few days ago) and see what I get.
Glad I could contribute somewhat. I'll write back soon.
I have a bag of wholegrain long rice and some rice bran oil. If you could come up with something to use them both i'd be very grateful.
Made a loaf today with 300g of my pantry rice soaked overnight. After 12 hours of soaking, I drained and blended it with 150g of soaking liquid. To this mixture, I then added 15g of olive oil (ran out of neutral cooking oil), 15g of sugar, 4g salt, and 1g of yeast.
My thinking here was to develop the flavour of the batter for the first rise, and then add more yeast when rising the second time in the pan itself. I understood that rising the batter fast enough in the loaf pan before baking was important because blended rice will after some time simple form a sediment at the bottom.
After 3 hours of rising the batter became bubbly, and true enough, the batter was really dense at the bottom and runnier at the top. The mixture felt runnier than at the start of fermentation. At this point I added 1 tablespoon of rice flour to thicken the mixture (thick batter, ribbon test), and then added another 3g of yeast. I then rose this in a buttered pullman loaf for an hour till almost doubled and baked it at 175 degrees for 30 mins.
The loaf browned extremely well. I had too little batter for my pan so the batter could not hit the top, if not it would have been browned too.
Taste and texture of this loaf is really massively better than the loaf made from rice flour. So good. Really soft inside, with bounce and bite. Does not disintegrate and is not gummy at all. Shreddable and feels like bread. Toasts well.
My next step is to see how this translates to brown rice. That will take a little more time as I first need to get a pack from the supermarket! But I'm confident of making this work. Updates soon.
looks amazing. But, as Tom asked, how's it taste.
Also: am I understanding correctly: soaked rice, oil, salt, sugar, yeast, a spoon of rice flour + time & temp = bread? Wow!
Rob
Just those ingredients. I think it's an excellent gluten free option both toasted and untoasted - pleasantly yeasted, some depth in flavour, and the crispy crust is, well, like rice krispies. A completely different beast from your usual rye loaves though...;)
What a lovely story!
What is the pantry rice, is it a short grained or long grained rice?
I should have stated, it's typical short grain rice from the supermarket. However, I've just bought both short and long grain brown rice this morning - generic brands from the supermarket, I think they might be Italian - and am currently soaking them to bake tomorrow. Let's see how the differences add up.
Wow, Lin, it does look like you've figured this thing out!
How is the flavor? Usually rice is pretty mild. Maybe these breads need to be toasted and slathered?
TomP
I was really enthusiastic about these experiments because I wanted to understand rice better. Elegance and simplicity of recipe was another reason. But I was ready to accept that it wouldn't be very tasty... until this loaf. Biting into it fresh with its tender crumb and super crispy browned crust, I was pleasantly surprised. It felt like bread and tasted pleasantly yeasted, with depth, though an unknowing taster would know it isn't wheat without necessarily tasting that it's rice. I could definitely drop the sugar further. Toasted and slathered with butter, it fits the bill perfectly.
I think slow first fermentation and then fast second fermentation might be key. Will need to try it out with brown rice, which will be trickier.
That is a beautiful crumb. I have to wonder, though, if there had been more batter, or the pan had been smaller, would it have caved? Maybe part of the secret is to keep a low profile. I've never made a gluten-free loaf (wouldn't want to have to eat all the failures), but if anyone asked me to make one, that's the formula I would use.
Yes indeed, I would worry if my loaf is much taller. I'm going to try it out with more brown rice batter and see how it goes.
Lin, that loaf looks wonderful! I feel like the double ferment would really contribute to the flavour.
I did another blender bread experiment myself - the nice thing about this is that as long as you soak the rice, it's so quick to put together. Same ChefSteps recipe but with some changes. This time was with jasmine rice, and I reduced the amount of yeast to 3g for more controlled proofing and removed the parchment from my tin.
I only had time to make this after my rice had soaked for more than 24h, but would like to see if I could do a shorter and more reasonable soak but with a longer blend time. Even for this >24h soak, I blended the rice on its own for probably 5-10 min to make sure it was super smooth, because of my failure last time. Then I added in the sugar, oil, salt, and yeast.
I did a single proof in the pan, since I was short on time and actually overproofed again since I forgot to hit "start" on my oven which meant it didn't preheat! But it still turned out pretty good - still produced a bread that, well, looks and tastes like bread. I think that someone who regularly eats jasmine rice would be able to ID it as rice, but those who don't would probably know that it's not a wheat bread but not be able to tell what kind of not-wheat-bread it is.
The crust was super thin and crispy right out of the oven, so I couldn't resist tearing into it immediately! Baking it without parchment really made a huge difference. I suspected the extra insulation from the parchment paper was impeding the browning, and I was right, haha. The crust did remind me a lot of dosas! After cooling and softening a little, the crust is not as exciting haha.
You can see that it sunk a little bit from overproofing, and I think the holes are probably too big to be a shokupan texture, but it is still quite good. It seems like as long as the rice is blended fine enough, even with some things going wrong, you can get a decent bread.
Great result, the browning is excellent, and since it worked with Jasmine I'm guessing Basmati might also be a good candidate rice to try.
-Jon
I agree with you about the parchment! We need to be brave enough to just pour the batter directly into a buttered pan. And agree with you re identifying the ingredients of the bread.
Glad to know that you've found success with the blender recipe too!
I've finished my experiments with brown rice today too, and have posted them here to prevent this post from getting too lengthy. Thanks clazar123 for starting this interesting post and I hope others will try it out too. But for me, enough rice bread for now! :)