I have been struggling to get decent loaves out of my attempt to put together a recipe for sprouted whole grain spelt with no flour. My wish is to use a poolish and autolyse. I am pleased with my standard loaves that have not used sprouted spelt grains, but I now wish to transition to sprouted grains. There is good medical research grounds for the switch:
According to the Ai referred to below:
"There are cultures that practice sprouting grains before making bread. One such example is the traditional practice of sprouting grains in some Native American cultures. They would soak grains like corn, wheat, or barley in water until they sprout, and then grind them into a paste or flour to make bread."
- Preiously when using unsprouted ground spelt grains, i used for the Poolish spelt 300g, water 300g, small amount of yeast per a table of values according to the temperature and time span.
- Main dough: spelt flour 1200, water 900
- Lowish salt
I wrote to an on line AI calletd chatgpt ai-unlimited. The AI gave me the following reply, which looks reasonable, but I need help to change it into a recipe, especially because the sprouted grains are heavier and more hydrated than the dry grains. This has made it difficult for me to decide on amounts of added water needed in the recipe. I have found that the water to grain ratio of unsprouted grains does not work for freshly sprouted grains.
Can I please have some advice and guidance to fill in the outline below. (assuming I start with 1500g of spelt before sprouting all of it?
I propose to use a food processor to avoid the need to dry out the sprouted grains.
Here is the AI's reply to my request for a recipe:
- Unfortunately, as an AI text-based assistant, I don't have access to real-time information or specific recipes. However, I can provide you with a general outline for making spelt loaves using freshly sprouted spelt grains, a poolish, and an autolyse. Please note that you may need to adjust the measurements and techniques based on your specific preferences and baking experience.
Ingredients:
- Freshly sprouted spelt grains
- Water
- Active baking powder
- Salt (low amount)
- Optional: additional ingredients for flavor or texture (e.g., seeds, nuts)
Instructions:
1. Sprouting Spelt Grains:
- Soak spelt grains in water for about 8-12 hours.
- Drain the water and rinse the grains thoroughly.
- Place the grains in a sprouting jar or a sieve covered with a cloth.
- Rinse the grains twice a day for 2-3 days until sprouts appear.
2. Poolish:
- Mix equal parts (by weight) of sprouted spelt grains and water in a bowl.
- Add a small amount of active baking powder to the mixture.
- Cover the bowl and let it ferment at room temperature for 12 hours or overnight.
3. Autolyse:
- In a separate bowl, combine the sprouted spelt grains (without the poolish) with water.
- Let the mixture rest for about 30 minutes to hydrate the grains.
4. Dough Preparation:
- Combine the poolish and autolyse mixture in a large mixing bowl.
- Gradually add more sprouted spelt grains until the desired consistency is achieved.
- Add a low amount of salt to the dough and mix well.
- Optional: incorporate any additional ingredients for flavor or texture.
5. Proofing and Baking:
- Shape the dough into three loaves and place them on a baking sheet or in loaf pans.
- Cover the loaves with a cloth and let them rise in a warm place until doubled in size.
- Preheat the oven to a moderate temperature (around 180-200 Celsius).
- Bake the loaves for approximately 30-40 minutes or until they turn golden brown.
Please note that this is a general guideline, and it's always recommended to refer to a specific recipe for precise measurements and instructions.
Your help would be appreciated
Robin
Have wheat or barley. I would think out of those three only corn was native to the Americas. So i'm not sure about AI.
But you've come to the right place. Real humans with knowledge. I believe when grains are sprouted to make bread it's just until the white of the shoot starts to grow. This happens within about a day after soaking. If the sprouts are left to grow more this is more for making malts and should you have too much malt in bread the results will be poor. Judging by the AI answer it looks like if left for that long the grains will be too far along.
Hope others will chime in with more in-depth knowledge of this process.
There is a grain native to the Americas called "Little Barley". From Wikipedia:
I would think (but I don't know for sure) that any early culture must have had times when their grain wasn't dry enough and started to sprout. They surely would have tried to make use if it before it spoiled. Either they got some kind of beer or they would have tried grinding it into flour.
From a USDA page (https://plants.usda.gov/DocumentLibrary/plantguide/pdf/ccpg_horde.pdf):
Wheat not being native and corn being native. Never heard of little barley but sounds like there's a difference between barely and little barley. Just looked it up. It's related to barley. In other words a type of barley native to North America. Learned something new.
Did Christopher Columbus ever reach what is now known today as the USA? I don't think so.
"...Columbus carried seed on his ships from Haiti to New England..."
This is incorrect, I think.
I believe you are right about Columbus. I think he never set foot on the continent of North America.
Little barley is not the same as barley, being a native grass. It apparently was known and possibly cultivated by native Americans. I suppose it has some similarities, hence the name. Wheat, of course, came with the Spaniards at some point
Little barley (Hordeum pusillum) is in the same genus as grain barley (H. vulgare). Evidently, there must be enough similarities for the taxonomists to classify it as a barley.
Most of the important cereal grains have wild relatives, and often the domestication of them can be traced back to a wild (native) species. The domestication of maize is still somewhat sketchy to scientists.
Other North American native grasses have been used as grains. The most familiar is wild rice (Zizania palustris), but Canada Wild Rye (Elymus canadensis), rice-grass (Oryzopsis spp.), and dropseed (Sporobolus spp.), among others, were also used as edible grains (mostly as flour). One fascinating characteristic of Sporobolus heterolepis (Prairie Dropseed) is the faint aroma of popcorn when it is in bloom.
This got me interested in trying to tune up a prompt or two that would display the same kind of bread. Here's the transcript. Note that I had to ask ChatGPT to correct the hydration, and then about the fact that yeast for the poolish had been omitted -
This doesn't seem like a bad response, but even the second try has a lot of water and I'm still uneasy about the yeast. OTOH, I haven't worked with any sprouted grains, let alone spelt, so I don't have a feel whether the hydration level is reasonable.
As always, ChatGPT's response quality can be influenced by the prompt, and you have to scrutinize the responses carefully in case it has gone off the rails.
Poolish is a preferment made of 1:1 mixture, by weight, of flour and water, with some amount of yeast.
Autoluse is process of improving gluten development by mixing flour and water prior to kneading.
Neither of this is happening with unmilled grain and baking powder.
Chat gpt says:
The weight gain of spelt grains during the sprouting process can vary depending on several factors, including the specific conditions and environment in which they are sprouted. On average, spelt grains can absorb water and increase their weight by approximately 25% to 50% during sprouting. Therefore, if you started with 100g of spelt grain, it is reasonable to expect that it may weigh around 125g to 150g after three days of sprouting. However, please note that these figures are approximate and can vary based on individual circumstances.
Taking the unfermented recipe in my first posting. Should there be any adjustment to take into account water uptake during fermentation?
My view is that the additional weight of the grains due to water uptake should be treated as a contribution to the water.
EG:
Main dough grains can be assumed to increase by 25% per chatgpt:. 1200+300=1500
Water would therefore be reduced from 900-300=600 if the grains had taken up 300ml during fermentation.
The fermentation ratio for the main dough would be:
fermented undried grains 1500
Water 600
Revised hydration 40% (previously 75%)
My reason is if I dried the fermented grains they should go back to 1200g and need 900g water. The above assumes i do not dry them.
Is this reasonable?
In practice, I could work out the water take up by comparing the weights when dry and after sprouting.
During the past year, I have had lots of attempts at getting a truly eatable loaf and so I am back again.
Caveats
I do not bake with salt or oil. (When I used to use flour I had fairly decent risen loaves without those ingredients)
For flavour I add a number of ground herbs and spices.
I use fast dry yeast via a poolish and bake in silicon bread pans.
The bread is 100% ground sprouted spelt grains not flour.
I do not have a mixer and work by hand.
Reason for posting again:
I am really struggling with the kneading stage. In fact the dough becomes so sticky that I give up and get very poorly risen loaves which is better than nothing. Adding more water has not helped. The main problem is the gluten does not develop and so the dough is not hand able because it breaks up in preference to a smooth dough forming as per Peter Reinhart youtube video. It does not form a nice round ball with a flexible skin. I have tried cut and plop, pull and fold, and slap and fold.
If I bought a stand mixer with a dough hook would that end my problems?
R
When you say “ground sprouted spelt grains”, how far along are the grains in the sprouting process? Is the shoot just emerging? Is the shoot as long as the kernel? Or does the shoot show some green color?
How are you grinding the grains? Are they wet or dry? What is the consistency or texture of the ground grains?
Would you provide a step-by-step description of your process, please?
Once we have a better notion of what you are working with, and what you do, we'll have a better starting point for figuring out the problem.
Paul
I am trying to bake this way because the sprouting of the grains allows the content to be more accessable to the eater. There are about 50 scientific papers about the process used in creating Avimar, a supplement for cancer treatment. It is claimed by the research that fermented wheat germ has a beneficial effect on cancer, an illness I do not want and have not currently got. As I bake all my own bread I decided it would add to the bread's benefits to have the wheat germ fermented by baker's yeast as per the research for Avimar.
Paul's questions. With my answers
When you say “ground sprouted spelt grains”, how far along are the grains in the sprouting process? Is the shoot just emerging? Is the shoot as long as the kernel? Or does the shoot show some green color?
I aim for a shoot of about 3mm. At that stage it is less than the kernel, and is still white. I have found it takes about 5 days to get to that stage. I do it via a saucepan with small holes in it for drainage and a little sprinkler system on a timer aimed at the open top of the saucepan.
How are you grinding the grains? Are they wet or dry? What is the consistency or texture of the ground grains?
The grinding is done once the shoots have reached the required length. They are wet and soft/ squeeze. I use the grinding option in a Samson
Would you provide a step-by-step description of your process, please?
It thought I could copy the text of a spreadsheet for the recipe. It is proving impossible at present. I will try again tomorrow. Can you suggest an approach to show you the screen of a spreadsheet? I notice there is a media browser. Can I import the text without the underlying coding?
I have used the Snipping Tool in Windows to post portions of a spreadsheet. The snip is saved as a jpeg file and then uploaded as an image (Insert/edit image button in the Comment toolbar). I suppose you could also snap a photo of the spreadsheet and post that image.
After snipping, open Paint and paste it into the Paint frame. Then save as a .png. The result will likely be more readable than a jpg, especially at small sizes.
you grind the wet grains into a paste which you then use as the starting point for the dough. Do I have that right?
A couple of things come to mind.
First, sprouting can be tricky, in the sense of knowing how far to let the sprouts grow. Too far, and you're making malt instead of spouted grains. Malt's enzymes can have negative effects on dough formation and handling characteristics, like extreme stickiness and weakened gluten. I'm not able to advise you on where the boundary is but I wonder whether the 3mm length might be straying across the line.
Second, the hydration of the wet grains would certainly lead to a wet, sticky dough. You may want to experiment with adding some dry flour to lower the overall hydration of the finished dough. Or, you could dry the grains and then mill them into flour.
Here's a final idea: try buying some sprouted flour to bake with. It should meet your objectives while giving you a more consistent result. Sprouted flours have their own learning curves, since they behave somewhat differently than their non-sprouted equivalents but they will have less variation from batch to batch than you are likely to experience when sprouting your own grains.
I wish you well as you work to help your wife. You’ve chosen a somewhat unconventional path down which few bakers travel, so getting useful advice from someone who’s been there and done that will require diligence. Here’s one post about it. Another possibility. And one right here on TFL.
Paul