Greetings from Germany. I love baking SD breads and have come a long way since I started the journey beginning of this year.
Now I'd like to foray into baking Panettone, tried twice and failed miserably (my mistakes of overdoing things). For breads, I usually will use my liquid starter which I maintain every day - I keep v small amounts, have a small back up in the fridge and also dried flakes (for long term storage).
About 6 weeks ago, I converted part of my liq starter into an LM. At the beginning, I wrapped and tied it and kept in the fridge as I did not have the time to start a new journey with the panettone. I did bagnetto it after I took it out of the fridge two weeks later. Since then I have been maintaining it with one warm refresh and one colder refresh (overnight at 18deg c).
My madre has been since fed several times (over the course of 4 weeks, twice daily), at one stage the PH was a low 3,8 (after a warm refresh) - I did then an overnight water submersion (see image) and it did improve the PH to 4,08 but on the whole it averages between 3,9 t 4,08.
My questions are : if my LM is blooming well within the 4 hours at 28deg C and it has been doing so 4 weeks in a row now, it is absolutely necessary to do 3 x refreshments in a row before using ? Can one get away with 2 warm refreshments ? It's just a timing thing for me. I'll post images here of my LM. Cross cut of after water storage, another of the normal refreshments, cold and warm.
How do I get the PH up to what is generally considered optimal 4,1 to 4,3 ?
Apologies in advance, my second post here, so my navigation is a bit clumsy.
Yes I have been reading but end up more confused than not. 
The number of sequential refreshes is determined by the product you are going to make.
3-4+ for highly enriched Grandi lievitati e.g., Panettone.
2-3 for Moderately enriched bakes e.g., Croissants
1-2 for lean or unenriched doughs e.g., pan loaves and hearth breads.
A refreshed madre is like a levain (leaven), after the overnight phase it becomes the mother (madre).
LM Rinfresco = levain
LM = Mother
By reaching pH 3.9 in 4 hours your LM is nice and strong and that's good!
hi, thank you for your reply on my questions. I was aiming to bake a panettone or two. I failed twice but it might not be the LM's fault, but my crumb was dense .... even though all prepped dough rose to the occasion within time frames.
The PH level swings back and forth from 3.9sh to 4.08 and a few days ago, I thought I would have a go again, I was already refreshing twice a day, one warm, one cold .... and then lost all confidence because, the first refreshment did not triple even after 5 hours, just slightly over double. Now this after about 4 weeks of daily feeding regiment. I was not as much concerned about the PH until I realised the LM was getting weaker in that it was not tripling. Panic set in, I suppose ... grrrrrrrr
In frustration, I junked the LM :-( now I am feeling very silly and sheepish about it. I am starting a new one soon. I had absolutely no clue to what I was doing and why I was doing it hence the frustration. I am reading up a lot but snippets of information is even more confusing. I know there needs to be a balance of yeast and bacteria.
I am not in a hurry to bake so I am prepared to study (practically) and will pay more attention to how my soon to be new LM will behave. I guess it's hard to pin something down when you do not understand why you are doing it. I tried most of the permutations, lower hydration (down to 38%), higher hydration (max 45% water), 1:1:xx, 1:2:xx, once in water at cool temp etc.
So my question for now is: would be correct to understand that warm refreshments increases PH and cool at 18degc lowers it ? When PH is low, more warm refreshments to cool and when PH shoots over 4.1, like 4,5 (not I had the pleasure to experience this), then more cool refreshments to warm ?
Thank you really for tirelessly helping clueless folks LOL !
My 2ct
It's not necessary to refresh the 3x after the cold overnight cycle. But if you want optimum results the PM should be strong (a lot of activity) and balanced. If you get it with 2 refreshments, then go for 2. Not everybody (e.g. every professional panettone bakery does 3 refreshments. Reference: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8160612/ (just scroll to figure 1)
It's just a matter of temperature, timing, feeding ratios and patience (2-3 days, maybe longer). A long time ago I repeated 2-4 times the following 24h cycle, until the pH at peak was 4.1-4.2:
- 2-4 warm (26º-27ªC) refreshments 1:0.8 (LM:flour) during the day (in a jar / container)
- 1 cold (15º-18ºC) refreshment, just loosely wrapped in (clean!) linen or cotton. Ratio between 1:1 and 1:2, depending on the temperature (summer/winter, etc) and the time left until the end of the 24h cycle.
A few remarks:
- I start the next refreshment when the LM reaches the peak. Otherwise it collects too much (unwanted) acid.
- Smell and taste your LM on every stage.
- Don't rely solely on you pH meter. Most pH meters in the price range affordable for home bakers have a precision of 0.07 in the range 3-5 (even if the display shows hundredths). Measuring the pH with such a precision is a science in itself. And I'm pretty sure not necessary for panettone.
- There is more than 1 way to reach your goals, e.g. reduce acidity. I'm not sure, if all results are suited for panettone. I'm by far neither a LM nor a panettone expert. Just trying to understand the whole LM and panettone "science" without the huge amount of surrounding voodoo.
thank you for chiming in. Good points especially about the peak and the PH meter tolerance , I think I might have missed that !
I was very patient until the last warm refreshment refused to triple :-( then I kinda *lost* it hahahaha.
I did smell even ate raw dough uhhhh tasted ok, a bit alcoholish but not pungent, neither was it *sour*. But I do not have a reference meaning a successful LM reference ... The saying : if you don't know where you're going, any road will (may or may not) take you there.
Starting another LM in the next days, I was winging it till now but this time, I am going to pay real good attention and try to understand the process better. It is the journey that matters to me, I don't even really like eating Panettones, I just want to be able to, so that I can bake and gift them away.
Btw I don't get any kind of notifications although I have checked the notify me when new and/or replies are posted. I guess I'll have to write to the moderators ?
Once again, thank you.
Have you checked these settings - receive comments - and receive content - they should be enabled to receive? If so contact the moderator. Enjoy!
Your reply I just received as a notification in my email. Yes of course, I have checked the appropriate boxes right from the start which was way back on my first post months ago. Hope this keeps up :-D Appropriate boxes meaning Notify me when new comments are posted and replies to my comment. Should I actually change it to instead of replies to my comments, all comments instead ?
That would be best - you'll receive only comments to you. Enjoy!