Hi all,
I'm still getting to know my Bosch and was wondering if anyone else with a Bosch could weigh in on mixing time:
Today I mixed a 67% hydration sourdough (about 5-6 pounds of dough, KA patent flour, 5% rye). Moving down my hydration from 73%--which my Bosch was not kneading well---I was hoping I could get a moderate level of gluten development and then reduce my S&Fs from 5 to 2. After a 20 minute autolyse, I mixed the dough for 2 minutes on speed 1 to incorporate salt and stiff levain, and then for 4 minutes on speed 3. At this point the dough was already getting sticky and torn, but as an experiment I decided to mix for another 2 minutes to see if I was misinterpreting the dough.
As a side note: I've noticed this behavior before, the dough starts to get torn up and sticky after only a few minutes, and that has driven me to scale back my mixing times. But with only moderate success in scaling back my mixing times (to 1-2 minutes after an autolyse), I thought that I may as well experiment by lengthening my mix this time in order to see if I was simply undermixing in the past.
Anyway, so after two more minutes on speed 3 (6 minutes total) I felt I could safely conclude that I was over mixing my dough. It was even stickier and felt almost as wet and loose as a 75% hydration dough (this one was 67%).
Has anyone else had a problems with over mixing with their Bosch? I've read some say that 6-10 minutes is the amount of time it takes for them to get good development. I was surprised that I could over mix with 6 minutes (granted with an autolyse preceding it). I am going to experiment further by mixing without an autolyse, but I was hoping some other Bosch owners could give me a sense of how much mixing they typically knead for their breads with and without autolyses.
Thanks!
Steven
I've no hands-on experience with a Bosch myself, Steven, but can tell you that speeds 3 and 4 are strictly for the beaters and whisk. You should not go over 2 with the dough hook.
Which Bosch do you have?
Bosch Universal. I chose speed 3 based on Suas' recommendations that "speed 2" should be about 200 revolutions per minute (apparently this is the case for both Hobarts and spiral mixers). On a Bosch, speed 2 is about 156 revolutions per minute (estimated with no dough in it), and speed 3 is 198 revolutions per minute. So I went with speed 3.
Ah I see. The kneading attachment on the Bosch Universal is quite different from either the J or spiral hook of an overhead mixer. Instructions for Bosch specifically call for speeds 1-2 when kneading dough. (Same on the discontinued Braun mixers, and contemporary KAs, I believe.) The new Bosch Universal Plus and its precursors have some kind of electronically controlled "automatic transmission" which regulate torque/rpm at each speed.
Have posted this before but in case you missed it:
I don't think this man in the video knows the first thing about bread. I use a Universal Plus and am happy with it but it isn't perfect (small batches mainly) but I would never tell anyone to let any machine dictate a formula. "Never measure"? I don't think so.
Whatever, he certainly must know about the Bosch. And all the instructional videos basically concur on this point: add just as much flour as necessary for the dough to form a ball and pull away from the sides of the bowl. Good rule of thumb for idiots like myself who have no desire to attempt artisinal loaves, but who would be happy with a nice whole grain pan loaf. Now, even I know that for bagels or pizza I'd have to incorporate more flour than demonstrated there, but still I do follow the basic concept (with my Braun and Presto, don't own a Bosch) and adjust by feel until I get the desired consistency.
What the video does not really cover, is how long to continue mixing after the dough has come together — guy just says that's when to stop adding flour. So perhaps not the greatest help to the OP. Kinda reminds me of the old chestnut about the bus passanger who asks the guy next to him how he'll know when the bus reaches his destination: "Oh, I get off at the stop after that, so just keep your eyes on me and get off one stop before I do!"
I've used a Bosch at least weekly for several months now. I typically make four loaves at a time but vary from two to six loaves. I have seen the videos and I have changed how I use the mixer. Previously I used the KitchenAid and followed the recipe exactly. Now I am back to a variable amount of flour. I now typically add either the dry ingredients up to about 60 percent of the flour and then the water or I just put the water in first. I mix this up and then add the remaining flour. Kneading times also seem to be longer on the Bosch. I mainly knead on speed two but occasionally go to speed three. I've not had a problem. On recipes that I have made with both the KA and the Bosch, the Bosch uses less flour. I have had to bump the liquid from 65% to about 68% or higher to incorporate all of the flour. The dough does seem a bit stickier but easily manageable and much lighter. In kneading over 5 lbs of dough, the Bosch had no problems. BTW, I stripped a gear in the KA 6 qt while making bread.
yeah, i was thinking the same thing.
One subtle thing he did say that I think may be true of proper mixing in the Bosch is that the dough should clump together on one side of the mixer. I've noticed that this happens a) in my drier doughs, b) particularly when i do not do an autolyse. After an autolyse, the dough is particularly prone wrapping itself around the center pole and never clumping into a ball. I find that when this happens, the dough tears more.
ask chris319 for the stainless bowl with no center post that he said he was taking to the dump.He will be rid of it and you will be super happy...works wonderfully with up to 14 lbs of dough..but .not 12 ounces
Thanks fotomat -- I will. Do you have the stainless steal bowl? Do you find it produces a significantly better mix than the normal bowl?
I'm slightly baffled because so many TFLers have great experiences with the Bosch (and I'm assuming the plastic bowl), and many consistently say that others' problems are usually operator error. I can't really see what I'm doing wrong though….
sounds like it may be as simple as that to avoid over mixing. Hopefully, anyway.
loaves with plastic bowl with results similar to yours and thought there has to be a better way. Research here and other places brought me to stainless and 100's of loaves later still very happy.My usual load is about 4-6 lbs and run on speed 2 for the most part with the momentary switch used in the beginning to blend, autolyse then 1 for a minute and 2 the remainder.Good luck
This post is now 10 years old, but I have the same exact issue with my Bosch, which I have had for about three months now and make bread every week. While the dough is still in the mixer, It never comes together to look silky and smooth like it does in the KitchenAid or by hand. It's very shaggy, sticky, and like a thick batter. it does not bounce back into itself. And what the OP said about it only becoming sticker and wetter the longer it mixes is exactly what I run into. Some people say I'm not mixing long enough, but that's what happens when I mix longer, and then other people say I'm mixing too long so then I only do it 2 to 3 minute mix and then I feel like the dough isn't developed enough. What I have to do is tip the dough out onto the counter and introduce several stretch and fold and rest periods but at that point I might as well be making this by hand. That there is the alternate suggestion which is that I am OVER-kneading... which also seems impossible to me because many times I have turned on the mixer and I will literally stop it every two minutes to check the dough and it's never where it needs to be. it's not like I hit the prime spot of gluten development and then turned the mixer back on.
Another thing is that I have never once been able to achieve the window pane. I have come close a few times when I've implemented several resting periods, but I've never been able to do it straight from the machine which you can do from a KitchenAid. so I'm always asking the question, what exactly is this machine doing if it's not developing gluten? I really just don't get it.... I have been making bread for about 10 years, and this is frustrating. Probably because it's not fun to make bread with 5 pounds of flour and wonder the entire time if it's working.
I have read a few posts about this, and one post was saying that while it doesn't look smooth while in the mixer because of the design of the skinny legs of the dough hook, once the dough is turned out it should behave as you'd expect and smooth out with a few hand kneads. That doesn't happen to me... it often stays sticky, shaggy, and batter-like. Just like it was in the mixer.
I can't help but wonder if it's about the shape of the dough hook… It's kind of just tearing through and dragging the dough, Whereas a spiral hook is more like smooshing and folding the dough into itself which is closer to hand kneading. I just read today that there is such a thing has tearing gluten. could that be what's happening? I really don't know.
I have experienced similar issues with my Bosch universal plus when I started using mine several years ago. I have never had the problem of a small amount of dough not mixing like others have talked about. As far as I can tell most mixers have their idiosyncrasies that need to be learned. The problem with a batter like dough that wouldn’t come together was from doing what the directions suggested by adding all the water first. It is better to hold back 5>10% of the water in the recipe so that the dough will gather itself up in the beginning and travel around the bowl. The mixer does a better job of incorporating water that is added in increments than a Kichen Aide spiral mixer that sloshes it around and out of the bowl. The wet dough cannot develop as quickly but eventually it will it just takes more time. It may help to mix and rest in intervals to keep the dough from overheating.
I have no set time for mixing because of all the variables like hydration, flour type, and additions but I get a sense of it as it strengthens and glistens near the end. I don’t use much rye flour except as a small percentage in the flour mix for my starter but it is slimy sticky stuff that I think it can break down quickly if it is over-mixed.
It is possible to get window pane in the mixer but it happens faster with a few slap and folds on the counter after mixing. Hammelman says that over kneading the dough can constrict the rise. Over kneading can also diminish the flavor in lean doughs and whole wheat bread from over oxidation. HTH
Don
I think we're confusing mixing and Kneading. These are two distinct operations.
I do not have a Bosch universal, so I have no direct experience with them, but I do have an Akarsrum and they're kind of simular. What I do is mix my dough 'til it's all combined but looks shaggy. Then I let it rest (I rest it for 20 min.but less time might be OK). The dough seems kind of firm at this point. After the rest, I knead it. With my Ank, 8 min. seems to be about right. After Kneading, the dough will be much more extendable, and sticky. I turn it out, give it a fold, and let it rest again. (maybe 5 min.) At this point it's more manageable than when I turned it out. Now I bulk ferment.
I agree with the suggestion about adding liquid in separate "lifts". In my Ank, lots of liquid reduces the "traction", and impeads mixing. I add both liquid and flour in several "lifts" which seems to help rapid combination.
I hope I've been of help. Jim
Mixing = kneading. Enjoy!
Ha, no! Just no!
Kneading is something that occurs only by hand.