Hi all,
Ive been baking for some time mainly pastry, entrements ect... i decided to try panettone in oct 22 and its been like a drug ever since...ive never spent so long studying, obsessing or having nightmares about my whole life in this aspect anyway...road cycling is another matter...
My days are consumed with maintenance, preperation refreshments and troubleshooting or learning. My head buzzes with ideas how to make the next better than the last.
Ive spent alot of time reading chamberllands book on panettone. Ive also spent alot of time on all forum threads along with countless google recipes (of which half are called pannettone...but are just not). I appreciate everyones contribution here..i got this far with this forums knowledge.
So...
Primos failed so much it breaks down any anger I first had. I got lucky enough to make a 'bread" my first attempt and thought...this isnt so hard...then I failed 6. Ive baked a few at a time with LM maintained different ways one feeling damn that dough looks good...the other not so much
... the good one not rising the other perfect.
Now that this is all out the way...we reach the new chapter. My LM needs help to the next level.
My LM is just not acidifying
Ive tried long 7hr 1:1:35-45 @30 into 12-16hr 18oc refresh same ratios, tried @ 0.95,85,80 flour ratios, tried 1.1,2,3 flour ratios. Tried adding egg yolk to the mix @ 6%, tried wholewheat flour ratios, organic and type 1 italian flours for nutrient rich feeds. Ive tried varying PH of waters and flours...all specific italian flours.
My PM only goes to 4.1 even after days at room temp bound (loosely) for days, the c02 production is huge its exploded like a bomb before. When i go to do prep refreshments ...3.15-4hrs ph comes to about 3.4 and no less. It smells sweet like malted honey at this point.
When I do water baths overnight it smells like honey and imagine a beer factory, its amazing...yet the acidity wont go down.
Which comes to primo impasto...it always acidifies to about 4.6-8ish. So before i try more recipes ...i want to get this to 3.8 or so after bound maintenance storage. Any suggestions?
Some pics of my latest...and older...
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- Alexio's Blog
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See hear for a similar discussion: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/71710/rebalancing-lievito-madre
Perhaps a very warm bagnetto (a la Morandin) will help? Done at 37-38C for at least 30 minutes...
Thanks Mwilson ive tried the hot bagnetto this morning, very fizzy for 35 mins. I also read the thread...lot to take in but will do.
Prior to this it was in 17 degrees cool overnight maintenance in water. It ended up floating 50/50 out of water domed smooth and a thin crust. When cracked it was slightly tacky but open air after 10 seconds it was not anymore. It smelled alcoholic and sweet malty/honey is how I describe it. Very nice. It was very fizzy upon opening the crust.
Post bagnetto I refreshed 0.8:1:30 - mix 7 mins then laminate 3-4x im going to do an open air first production refresh @30 degrees for 3.5hrs
2nd: 1:1:47 @ 30 - 3.5hrs
3rs 1:1:47 @ 30 - 3.5hrs
If it doesnt acidify to ph4.2 min on the last... I will cool store overnight and try again tomorrow.
First few pics are after 2 hours in cool overnight storage
Next few are about half way pre bed
Next are at the post 16hrs - final PH was 4.35 this was 1:1:45
Refresh 1 3.5hrs - core temp 28 - PH 3.45 - dry refreshments this run
2nd and 3rd production refresh - not in water
Refresh 2 30.6oC internal at 3.5hrs - 4.33 ph overshot this oC ...wasnt paying attention.
Refresh 3 30 degrees internal @ 3.5hrs - 4.3ph ...think im going to have to try adjusting the time down and flour ratio maybe...all triple and then some, light acifidity on the pallet but similar to usual very sweet and light alcohol brewery notes. This one being out of water method should reach the 4.1ph but isnt.
pics from primo first dough, good gluten network and well developed, still on rope - final PH after 10hrs (tripled) 4.95 @ 25oC - initial mix is flour, egg, sugar, water, LM then butter added once formed - 13 mins + 6 minutes total time
Times: first dough + flour - 7 mins speed 1
Egg 1/3rd + all sugar + maple syrup (thought id try like for like over honey) - 4:30 minutes speed 1
Egg 1/3rd + salt - slowly drip it in over 1 minute then bring back to fully developed ...speed 2 until incorporated then speed 1
Butter + vanilla I add it all in one go takes 3 mins 30
Final 1/3rd of egg yolk - 2 mins speed 1
Water - 3 minutes speed 1
picture below is final gluten development before resting for 20 mins, portion, first shape, rest another 20 bench, pre shape then into moulds for 5hrs @ 26oC brought out to rest for 15 to form skin then cover and cook on a peel 170oC with steam for ~50 mins (92c int)
Before adding crust
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Chocolate hazelnut, almond icing
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Cold overnight rest dry 17oc - 16hrs
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One thing to bear in mind; the overnight maintenance done in water becomes less acidic, while not doing anything to limit bacteria and you can expect to find an end pH of about 4.3 when using this method. Just as Giorilli describes the optimum pH of the refreshed madre is 4.5 (4.3-4.8) and he uses the in water (piemontese) method.
In Cresci however, Massari a proponent of the bound (Milanese) method, comments on the Piemontese method, saying that if the operator is careless or unskilled the primo impasto tends to acidify.
A weaker (less acidic) LM should be dosed higher, as evidenced by examining the formulae written by users of the Piemonte method.
pH 4.1 is the typical end point when using the Milanese method.
Also, in the thread I linked, we discussed the difficulty in getting accurate readings of pH, dissolving a sample in distilled water is the most accurate approach!
Thanks, I always noticed my water cool, always stayed higher ph, doing an overnight in water and dry refresh im going to continue with...its gotten me closer to the mark eith regards to higher ph after primo stage.
I tried actually doing the refreshments out of water this time as I found my primo was always low ph ...and its always the LM as they say(if the meter can be trusted) it did end up below the 5.1 ish ph but its an improvment on the previous times. I find roys primo rises so much faster than any others I have tried. I left it once without looking and it went 4x after 12hrs but it was about 4.5ph...
Im going to go back to other recipes to check what happens to the primo then (roys recipe is the most telling if you make any mistakes, its extremely complex and unforgiving in the primo) the taste is great. Ive had many a time making this with the salt causing issues but gluten copes well now and butter use to be an issue but it takes about 1 minute to absorb then 2 to be fully in rope again. Will visit it again soon, with more experience under my belt, its not for an amatur imo.
I seen the distilled water ph test...going to try this next one, great tip!
Sorry Mwilson...i notice you quoted a less acidic PM would be increased but also quoting the part about unskilled/not careful ..would acidify the primo. Trying to wrap my head around those 2. Yet more rabbit holes to go down...
Yes, formulae devised by maestros that use the Piemonte (in acqua) method for the overnight often dose the LM higher with respect to the flour.
LAB growth is fundamentally limited by pH and lactic being the principal fermentation acid and being stronger than acetic primarily determines pH. A lack of acidity opens the door for acidification, that is the will of LAB. For the same reason we can see that with maintenance in water, a longer ripening time for the overnight is usually prescribed.
Uniquely Morandin keeps his LM in water at all stages and he doses the LM at 50%, twice that of the typical 25% prescribed by Massari who uses the Milanese method.
I wanted to start a fresh as I feel the starter I made in the beginning is compromised. Ive attempted most to see what I could do but it always ends with an acidifed dough, sure the LM might not be the cause and it could be one of many other issues, however building a house on a poor foundation has me going back to the start.
I began again with water, flour and fermented organic apples (48hrs - water sugar and apples) with.
Day 7 now and my PM is so much better, will make a panettone sunday with it and see what happens.
I began again
16hrs @ 18 degrees - LM:F:filtered water - 1:0.8:38% - final PH 4.3 (im not focusing on the acidity for now just the size gain and checking how ripe it is)
Before this long cold storage it was in bagnetto for 15 mins at 28oc 15-20 mins ~2g/L sugar
I made 2 and have been maintaining both - 1 in water 1 dry same except the way its stored.
The smell is different this time around its more fruity yogurty with light wiffs of alcohol. Very nice.
todays maintained @flour:pm:water 0.8/1:38% 14hrs 18 degrees. Problem is before I was looking for an answer...a set routine but it took me a while to realise everyones different. Took 8 or so days to this from an apple. Ive wrote a full schedule out ..what worked for me but it probably wont work for someone else as each is different. 1:1:40 didnt work for me as it does for others, for mine the acidity was staying above 4.3 fast forward 3 days at this and it goes below 4 if I leave it to.
In water after 14hrs ... same 0.8:1:38% @ 18oC
Total - 20hrs @ 18oc