How about this as an affordable fermenter? Then use an inverted glass bowl as a cover. Temperature controlled, far cheaper than a purposeful starter/dough fermenter and much easier than making one from scratch.
Based on using the B&T proofer, if you did that I'd a) put a thin layer of aluminum over it (optional), b) buy a rack to set things on and c) build a box that's just barely as wide as the mat, with a lid, ideally with some clear area so you can see in there.
The box would give you much more usable volume than an inverted bowl. The sheet of thin metal (like 1/16th of an inch, 1.5mm) would give you a stable surface and protect the mat but is probably overkill.
I was thinking of an overturned see through tupperware like container which can be put over the starter jar or bowl but a box to place the mat in is a good idea for the next step up. I could buy the mat and use it while I come up on how to formulate the box.
Just uses thin plastic for the sides. They hinged them because a feature of it is that it fold but that's not needed at all. If you to the think metal floor, you could superglue some clips along the edges facing up, then clip in some plastic for the sides. Set some clear plastic over the box for a lid and you're done.
I'll shop around and see if I can come up with those items which fit the specs of the heating mat. I think for under $70 one could make a very good substitute for the B&T, plus the satisfaction of being creative making your own.
But no, not that I've noticed. I usually cover the bowl that I put in it, so the dough doesn't humidify the B&T chamber, though. The B&T does come with a small tray that you place on the metal floor which provides ambient humidity.
I'm actually making some dough tomorrow and will watch more carefully.
In my experience, the issue with the B&T is the lack of humidity. It is, after all, just a drafty plastic box with a temperature higher (hopefully) than the ambient air around it. Making sure what is inside the box is not drying out has always been my biggest concern.
I've recently purchased an Anova Combi Oven that can be set for temperature (down to 75F) and humidity (up to 100% at any temperature). I bought it as a steam oven for baking bread, but I have found many other uses for the proofing/fermenting capabilities, which seem to be peerless.
Do you own a toaster oven? I have an Inkbird controller (≈30USD) that I use to control a 40 W incandescent bulb that I place in the oven. I find that I can control up to 30 °C. There is enough room in the oven for a 2-L dough bucket or a 23 × 10 × 10 cm Pullman pan.
I wish I could get warmer temperatures, but I would need to use an insulated cooler to achieve temperatures up to ≈40 °C.
I used a heat pad, a cheap controller, and a used wine fridge I found on craigs list - works great, though takes up more room than a Brod & Taylor. The plus side is i can set it to chill if needed.
Do you own a toaster oven?... There is enough room in the oven for a 2-L dough bucket or a 23 × 10 × 10 cm Pullman pan.
That's some big toast!!
The B&T isn't airtight, but the idea that it's drafty or has issues keeping temp is... comical. I've used it when the ambient temp drops to about 60F and it's fine. I've no idea how it would do if the ambient was 40F but I don't care since my house never sees those temps.
The Anova is great - probably the best home kitchen alternative - but it's $700. That's a completely different price class. At that price I'd actually look for a new range with a built in proofer.
Don’t get your PIAW. First, I never said the B&T didn’t work. I simply pointed out (from experience) that hydration can be an issue - after all that little pan they give you isn’t a support bracket. I used to use the B&T to incubate my yogurt. The nature of an uninsulated box, heated from the bottom led to the bottom of my jars getting hotter than the tops. This resulted in uneven Lab activity. Not a complaint, an observation.
As for the Anova, I paid $500, no need to pay sticker price. As for your thoughts on just buying an oven with a proofing feature, my Samsung has both proofing and dehydration. I prefer the Anova since I can also control humidity/steam. Unless someone came out with a new range that I’m not aware of, that is a unique feature.
As for mentioning an expensive option? if one is jerry rigging an alternative to a proofing box isn’t it worth knowing what you are giving up, or what other features you might want to jerry rig in?
I have issues with the Anova too. So I will write a quick review on TFL with the pluses and minuses.
First, if you have to abbreviate something, you don't have the courage to say it.
Second, if this site let me block people, you'd be on the list.
Third, since it doesn't, I'm done here. You're incredibly annoying and not worth the effort. In the unlikely event I ever post here again, don't bother ever replying.
I was thinking this mat just plugs in, I can place the starter or dough on the mat and cover it with some container. Anything beyond that and we're getting quite technical. Changing a lightbulb or plugging something is my limit. Getting a toaster oven and wiring/attaching something to it is way over my head.
I understand your sentiment. I'm mostly an electrical scaredy-cat. Plumbing, too. Anything that can kill me, burn down the house, or flood it is where I draw the line.
But I want to clear up for future visitors to this thread what I meant by the light bulb in the oven. I didn't rewire the toaster oven (it still is used like normal). I plug a cheap extension cord into the Inkbird, then attached a light bulb base (2USD) to the cord outlet. The bulb screws into that like any other bulb. I lay the bulb at on the bottom of one end of the toaster oven and set the Inkbird with the sensor next to the container. I do try not to place anything directly over the light bulb, but once the temp. stabilizes, the bulb only comes on infrequently.
The one future issue I see is that incandescents are being phased out (for good reasons), so I may not be able to replace the bulb. And LEDs don't generate enough heat.
I suppose when they stop making incandescent bulbs, you can always look for one of those coffee warmers ;0)
As a side note, I wonder if you plugged the toaster oven into a thermal controller like the one mentioned in this thread if you could use your actual toaster oven coils?
I got that Inkbird model because it had a high enough amperage to handle the TO. I tried setting it for 41 °C or 65 °C to see if I could do CLAS or one of those rye scalds. It didn't work.
I don't understand the physics of it, but the liquid I had immersed the sensor in would continue heating far above the setpoint, even after the coils were de-energized. I think it might have something to do with the response of the TO. The settings in the Inkbird are probably not optimal for a large resistive load like in the TO. Or it could be something about the radiant heat that continues to emit from the coils—they don't cool down to room temp. immediately, after all.
But this idea does work controlling a small $15 CrockPot containing water for one of those long scalds. I'm honing my rye skills before attempting one of those…
And a good job too as the plug on my fridge was sparking and burning. If I hadn't woken up I dread to think what might have happened. I carefully turned off the switch before unplugging it. Opened it up with a knife (a technophobes screwdriver) and the live wire had burned through. So I googled how to wire a plug, cut off the burned bit of wiring and proceeded to re-wire. A couple of hours, and a far shorter cable, later I managed to get it done. Kept doing it wrong and had to cut off more cable (is that the right word) each time. It was my last attempt as anymore and the plug wouldn't reach the socket. So from here on in i'm leaving it to the experts! Even if I need to call an electrician, with a £100 call out charge, to change a plug.
For more versatility, I would suggest getting and inkbird controller with some heating mat that is not so restricted in temperature. The one I have, when well insulated, can be used at 40C for CLAS, for example.
It's really not technical, just a controller with a probe to measure temp, and you plug in any heating (and cooling) device in its plug, for it to control. Just get any heating mat together with it.
More like the mat's plug goes into the socket the controller provides. The controller then switches the mat on and off to maintain the set temperature.
Also would recommend a polystyrene box with the mat laid at the bottom. I just poked holes through with a screwdriver for the wires for the temperature mat and the temperature sensor that the controller has.
Also used an old cooling rack of just the right size above the mat so that your container is not in direct contact with the heating mat.
I'm thinking you've helped me find exactly what i'm after. This mat seems better then the one i found and with that temperature controller it should do the job.
You might want to consider a cheap styrofoam cooler that would give you insulation and a cheap container. One just large enough to put the mat into. You could cut a hole in the bottom for the cord to exit. The cooler would have a top that would hold in the humidity and the heat, combined with ilya's controller it might make an awesome proofing box.
What i'll do is get the mat and controller first then I can get an idea of what size Styrofoam cooler i'll need. Knowing me if I buy it at the same time i'll get wrong. I fully agree. Ilya's idea with your idea of a styrofoam cooler will be just perfect.
I agree, I just use a cardboard box I saved from the move, but something with better insulation would help.
Also would reduce the temperature differential between bottom and top, since if you place the mat below the dough the bottom of the dough heats up more, sometimes it's very obvious... So actually for the future, it's better to at least not place the container with the dough directly on the mat, but on something to elevate it a bit (unless you are e.g. making CLAS at 40C, then you need direct contact with the mat and as much insulation as you can manage).
So this ideal wasn't novel. I should know by now, especially on this site, that everyone here is a pretty invention bunch and if I have thought of it it's probably been done before. You've all been very helpful. As always!
No regrets thought... You've been very helpful and i've made up my mind. This should open up new avenues when it comes to baking. I've never been able to control the temps and looking forward to seeing how this helps me take my baking the next level up.
Sorry if this made you feel foolish, but you came up with this idea yourself, so it's your own, and precedent of the same approach only shows it's a good one!
And indeed, it can really help, especially in cold winder days...
This is the kind of thinking that helps in research, when 90% of the ideas one has have been tested and published, often MANY years ago. Sometimes one might think they have a great cool new project idea, only to find out it has been in the 70s.
My B&T was about $125 when I bought it a few years back, but this idea would be cheaper, and with the styrofoam, it will most likely work even better!!! YEA! Win, win! The only thing missing would be some kind of rack to keep your ferment from coming into direct contact with your heating element.
The only thing that I have used the inkbird for that this potentially can't do, is to monitor the temperature for scalds (i.e. 63-65 range) - I have used it for setting the oven to a low setting where its thermostat is not reliable, but by manually adjusting heat and continuously monitoring the reading I could set it where I wanted it to be. Not clear whether this one could do it, only says you can't set it above 42C, but maybe it can still measure higher than that.
I've just shared with Jon. He also just came up with the polystyrene idea without seeing it mentioned before. A very successful topic I think.
I just found this on amazon. Same heating pad but with a connected heat control. Two in one. Doesn't have as a wide range but well within the temps we need. What do you think?
I have not used a heat mat for dough, but I have used one for seed-starting. It's a very large mat that can warm four flats of seeds, but it has no thermostat. It has a rack that the flats rest on so they aren't subjected to the more intense heat of the mat. They work great for the seeds.
My only concern with a mat is the temperature gradient mentioned by others. The contents at the top of the container will be cooler than the area in contact with the mat. A rack over the mat and a box surrounding the mat and fermenting item will minimize this concern.
That I want to turn into diastatic malt. This heat mat would be ideal.
I do have the same concern with heat distribution but a well insulated cover should help. That might be the most challenging part. Buying the heat mat is easy. Fashioning a container that fits just so and is efficient as fermenting 'chamber' will be more difficult.
BTW for the bulk ferment, doing folds really helps even out the dough temperature I think. Sometimes when folding you can feel how the bottom side of the dough that is facing the mat is warm, but it's still cold inside and on top.
Just a thought, if you have one already a sous vide it could be set up in a container of water and either the water heats the inside of a container or the ferment could be in a bowl in the warmed water.
Inspired by your mat I bought a long narrow one from Amazon for only $8. It fits perfectly inside my cheap Igloo cooler. It easily holds 90F within 1 degree with Inkbird C206T controller.
I suspect your results will be comparable to the $200 alternative. Good deal. Only real,advantage of the B&T is the ability to fold it up and stow it away when not in use.
Based on using the B&T proofer, if you did that I'd a) put a thin layer of aluminum over it (optional), b) buy a rack to set things on and c) build a box that's just barely as wide as the mat, with a lid, ideally with some clear area so you can see in there.
The box would give you much more usable volume than an inverted bowl. The sheet of thin metal (like 1/16th of an inch, 1.5mm) would give you a stable surface and protect the mat but is probably overkill.
I was thinking of an overturned see through tupperware like container which can be put over the starter jar or bowl but a box to place the mat in is a good idea for the next step up. I could buy the mat and use it while I come up on how to formulate the box.
Just uses thin plastic for the sides. They hinged them because a feature of it is that it fold but that's not needed at all. If you to the think metal floor, you could superglue some clips along the edges facing up, then clip in some plastic for the sides. Set some clear plastic over the box for a lid and you're done.
Produce condensation when used as a fermenter?
I'll shop around and see if I can come up with those items which fit the specs of the heating mat. I think for under $70 one could make a very good substitute for the B&T, plus the satisfaction of being creative making your own.
But no, not that I've noticed. I usually cover the bowl that I put in it, so the dough doesn't humidify the B&T chamber, though. The B&T does come with a small tray that you place on the metal floor which provides ambient humidity.
I'm actually making some dough tomorrow and will watch more carefully.
That'll be good to know.
In my experience, the issue with the B&T is the lack of humidity. It is, after all, just a drafty plastic box with a temperature higher (hopefully) than the ambient air around it. Making sure what is inside the box is not drying out has always been my biggest concern.
I've recently purchased an Anova Combi Oven that can be set for temperature (down to 75F) and humidity (up to 100% at any temperature). I bought it as a steam oven for baking bread, but I have found many other uses for the proofing/fermenting capabilities, which seem to be peerless.
Do you own a toaster oven? I have an Inkbird controller (≈30USD) that I use to control a 40 W incandescent bulb that I place in the oven. I find that I can control up to 30 °C. There is enough room in the oven for a 2-L dough bucket or a 23 × 10 × 10 cm Pullman pan.
I wish I could get warmer temperatures, but I would need to use an insulated cooler to achieve temperatures up to ≈40 °C.
I used a heat pad, a cheap controller, and a used wine fridge I found on craigs list - works great, though takes up more room than a Brod & Taylor. The plus side is i can set it to chill if needed.
That's some big toast!!
The B&T isn't airtight, but the idea that it's drafty or has issues keeping temp is... comical. I've used it when the ambient temp drops to about 60F and it's fine. I've no idea how it would do if the ambient was 40F but I don't care since my house never sees those temps.
The Anova is great - probably the best home kitchen alternative - but it's $700. That's a completely different price class. At that price I'd actually look for a new range with a built in proofer.
Don’t get your PIAW. First, I never said the B&T didn’t work. I simply pointed out (from experience) that hydration can be an issue - after all that little pan they give you isn’t a support bracket. I used to use the B&T to incubate my yogurt. The nature of an uninsulated box, heated from the bottom led to the bottom of my jars getting hotter than the tops. This resulted in uneven Lab activity. Not a complaint, an observation.
As for the Anova, I paid $500, no need to pay sticker price. As for your thoughts on just buying an oven with a proofing feature, my Samsung has both proofing and dehydration. I prefer the Anova since I can also control humidity/steam. Unless someone came out with a new range that I’m not aware of, that is a unique feature.
As for mentioning an expensive option? if one is jerry rigging an alternative to a proofing box isn’t it worth knowing what you are giving up, or what other features you might want to jerry rig in?
I have issues with the Anova too. So I will write a quick review on TFL with the pluses and minuses.
First, if you have to abbreviate something, you don't have the courage to say it.
Second, if this site let me block people, you'd be on the list.
Third, since it doesn't, I'm done here. You're incredibly annoying and not worth the effort. In the unlikely event I ever post here again, don't bother ever replying.
PIAW - panties in a wad
I won't pretend to understand what you are upset about, but I am sorry you feel that way.
That you start off with "PIAW" without the balls to actually spell it out is both 1) a personal attack and 2) gutless.
You're a jerk. You're not worth my time and since I come to places like this for positive things and can't block you, I'm out.
I was thinking this mat just plugs in, I can place the starter or dough on the mat and cover it with some container. Anything beyond that and we're getting quite technical. Changing a lightbulb or plugging something is my limit. Getting a toaster oven and wiring/attaching something to it is way over my head.
Thank you alcophile.
I understand your sentiment. I'm mostly an electrical scaredy-cat. Plumbing, too. Anything that can kill me, burn down the house, or flood it is where I draw the line.
But I want to clear up for future visitors to this thread what I meant by the light bulb in the oven. I didn't rewire the toaster oven (it still is used like normal). I plug a cheap extension cord into the Inkbird, then attached a light bulb base (2USD) to the cord outlet. The bulb screws into that like any other bulb. I lay the bulb at on the bottom of one end of the toaster oven and set the Inkbird with the sensor next to the container. I do try not to place anything directly over the light bulb, but once the temp. stabilizes, the bulb only comes on infrequently.
The one future issue I see is that incandescents are being phased out (for good reasons), so I may not be able to replace the bulb. And LEDs don't generate enough heat.
I suppose when they stop making incandescent bulbs, you can always look for one of those coffee warmers ;0)
As a side note, I wonder if you plugged the toaster oven into a thermal controller like the one mentioned in this thread if you could use your actual toaster oven coils?
Actually, that's what I tried first.
I got that Inkbird model because it had a high enough amperage to handle the TO. I tried setting it for 41 °C or 65 °C to see if I could do CLAS or one of those rye scalds. It didn't work.
I don't understand the physics of it, but the liquid I had immersed the sensor in would continue heating far above the setpoint, even after the coils were de-energized. I think it might have something to do with the response of the TO. The settings in the Inkbird are probably not optimal for a large resistive load like in the TO. Or it could be something about the radiant heat that continues to emit from the coils—they don't cool down to room temp. immediately, after all.
But this idea does work controlling a small $15 CrockPot containing water for one of those long scalds. I'm honing my rye skills before attempting one of those…
And a good job too as the plug on my fridge was sparking and burning. If I hadn't woken up I dread to think what might have happened. I carefully turned off the switch before unplugging it. Opened it up with a knife (a technophobes screwdriver) and the live wire had burned through. So I googled how to wire a plug, cut off the burned bit of wiring and proceeded to re-wire. A couple of hours, and a far shorter cable, later I managed to get it done. Kept doing it wrong and had to cut off more cable (is that the right word) each time. It was my last attempt as anymore and the plug wouldn't reach the socket. So from here on in i'm leaving it to the experts! Even if I need to call an electrician, with a £100 call out charge, to change a plug.
I'm curious where does this mat sense the temperature? That would be an essential bit of info.
For more versatility, I would suggest getting and inkbird controller with some heating mat that is not so restricted in temperature. The one I have, when well insulated, can be used at 40C for CLAS, for example.
But I think 70F - 85F is a perfect range for starter and dough. However I will take a look at this inkbird controller.
EDIT: Just had a look. That's a bit too technical I think.
It's really not technical, just a controller with a probe to measure temp, and you plug in any heating (and cooling) device in its plug, for it to control. Just get any heating mat together with it.
So this will plug into a heating mat and then I can place my starter/dough on top of the mat and cover it?
What type of heating mat do you suggest? Can you advise on any one in particular?
More like the mat's plug goes into the socket the controller provides. The controller then switches the mat on and off to maintain the set temperature.
But yes!
That makes sense. Perhaps I am technical minded after all ;-)
This is like a converter that controls the temperature.
Thanks Ilya.
Also would recommend a polystyrene box with the mat laid at the bottom. I just poked holes through with a screwdriver for the wires for the temperature mat and the temperature sensor that the controller has.
Also used an old cooling rack of just the right size above the mat so that your container is not in direct contact with the heating mat.
Hope that helps!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FKP51LN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This is the one I have, but I believe there are more powerful ones available too.
I'm thinking you've helped me find exactly what i'm after. This mat seems better then the one i found and with that temperature controller it should do the job.
Thank you, Ilya.
Glad I could help, and hope it works well for you!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01E74TEPG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
this is the controller I have
It's good enough for me. I think this could work very well. I'll sleep on it and tomorrow i'll make a final decision.
You might want to consider a cheap styrofoam cooler that would give you insulation and a cheap container. One just large enough to put the mat into. You could cut a hole in the bottom for the cord to exit. The cooler would have a top that would hold in the humidity and the heat, combined with ilya's controller it might make an awesome proofing box.
What i'll do is get the mat and controller first then I can get an idea of what size Styrofoam cooler i'll need. Knowing me if I buy it at the same time i'll get wrong. I fully agree. Ilya's idea with your idea of a styrofoam cooler will be just perfect.
Thank you!
I agree, I just use a cardboard box I saved from the move, but something with better insulation would help.
Also would reduce the temperature differential between bottom and top, since if you place the mat below the dough the bottom of the dough heats up more, sometimes it's very obvious... So actually for the future, it's better to at least not place the container with the dough directly on the mat, but on something to elevate it a bit (unless you are e.g. making CLAS at 40C, then you need direct contact with the mat and as much insulation as you can manage).
Sorry, just replied with the same thing above, didn't scroll far enough down before I replied.
So this ideal wasn't novel. I should know by now, especially on this site, that everyone here is a pretty invention bunch and if I have thought of it it's probably been done before. You've all been very helpful. As always!
Indeed, there have been discussions about this in the past :) Nothing new under the sun.
Starting a post about an idea I had.
No regrets thought... You've been very helpful and i've made up my mind. This should open up new avenues when it comes to baking. I've never been able to control the temps and looking forward to seeing how this helps me take my baking the next level up.
Sorry if this made you feel foolish, but you came up with this idea yourself, so it's your own, and precedent of the same approach only shows it's a good one!
And indeed, it can really help, especially in cold winder days...
This is the kind of thinking that helps in research, when 90% of the ideas one has have been tested and published, often MANY years ago. Sometimes one might think they have a great cool new project idea, only to find out it has been in the 70s.
Totally independently but after someone else it's still brainstorming.
I'm going to buy the items tomorrow. When they come i'll get an idea of the styrofoam cooler needed.
My B&T was about $125 when I bought it a few years back, but this idea would be cheaper, and with the styrofoam, it will most likely work even better!!! YEA! Win, win! The only thing missing would be some kind of rack to keep your ferment from coming into direct contact with your heating element.
The longer I wait the B&T would go down in price. It's been going up steadily!
I could buy an oven rack.
Yep, I usually just use the same cooling rack I later use for the baked bread.
Already done :)
I'm behind the times. Who knows... perhaps CLAS will be on my baking list.
How about this Ilya? Two in one.
Oh that looks perfect! I don't remember seeing this when I ordered mine, must be a new version.
Perfect range 0-42C and that enables sourdough and CLAS. Same dimensions just has an added temp control. This is the one i'm going to go for.
Thanks Ilya.
The only thing that I have used the inkbird for that this potentially can't do, is to monitor the temperature for scalds (i.e. 63-65 range) - I have used it for setting the oven to a low setting where its thermostat is not reliable, but by manually adjusting heat and continuously monitoring the reading I could set it where I wanted it to be. Not clear whether this one could do it, only says you can't set it above 42C, but maybe it can still measure higher than that.
I'll think about it. Might be worth having something that enabled a more accurate reading for scalds.
A better way to feel about your idea: Great minds think alike!
I've just shared with Jon. He also just came up with the polystyrene idea without seeing it mentioned before. A very successful topic I think.
I just found this on amazon. Same heating pad but with a connected heat control. Two in one. Doesn't have as a wide range but well within the temps we need. What do you think?
Here's a previous discussion where we shared our home made proofer ideas as well
I have not used a heat mat for dough, but I have used one for seed-starting. It's a very large mat that can warm four flats of seeds, but it has no thermostat. It has a rack that the flats rest on so they aren't subjected to the more intense heat of the mat. They work great for the seeds.
My only concern with a mat is the temperature gradient mentioned by others. The contents at the top of the container will be cooler than the area in contact with the mat. A rack over the mat and a box surrounding the mat and fermenting item will minimize this concern.
That I want to turn into diastatic malt. This heat mat would be ideal.
I do have the same concern with heat distribution but a well insulated cover should help. That might be the most challenging part. Buying the heat mat is easy. Fashioning a container that fits just so and is efficient as fermenting 'chamber' will be more difficult.
BTW for the bulk ferment, doing folds really helps even out the dough temperature I think. Sometimes when folding you can feel how the bottom side of the dough that is facing the mat is warm, but it's still cold inside and on top.
Just a thought, if you have one already a sous vide it could be set up in a container of water and either the water heats the inside of a container or the ferment could be in a bowl in the warmed water.
Inspired by your mat I bought a long narrow one from Amazon for only $8. It fits perfectly inside my cheap Igloo cooler. It easily holds 90F within 1 degree with Inkbird C206T controller.
I suspect your results will be comparable to the $200 alternative. Good deal. Only real,advantage of the B&T is the ability to fold it up and stow it away when not in use.