I feel kinda foolish because I had written an in-depth issue I am having, only to preview it but did not save it!
Anyway, here is my situation. I will not go into depth as much this time! I have been baking pastry and breads at home for quite a few years. This particular product is call a Pandesal, which is a filipino dinner roll. When I make a batch of these I make 12 dozen at one time.
I have two electric ranges that I use. My oven is set to 415F. My baking process, to save time, is to place my first sheet pan on the bottom rack and bake it for about 5 minutes, then shift it to the upper rack for about 3 mins to finish off the top to a golden brown. While the pan is on the upper rack, I place another pan on the bottom rack and keep doing this until all 9 pans are done.
Recently, though, The bottoms of the rolls are not browning. I have to finish off the bottoms by flipping them over when the tops are browned, then place them under the broiler to lightly brown the bottom. I cannot seem to figure out what is happening. Normally 5 min to 5:15 is enough to brown the bottom. This time, though, I have tried numerous modifications. One was to increase the baking time from 5 min to 6 min. No help. Then I increase the temp from 415 to 420. Still no help. I then increased the time to 7 minutes, then 7:45. No change. I even went to 425F to see. Nothing.
I have been using the same recipe and ingredients for the last 10 years. But, I just realized that I did make a slight change to the recipe, which I hope is the cause.
Previously, I used fresh whole milk right out of the refrigerator. But I recently read that milk should be scalded when making breads. I read that:
Scalding the milk denatures whey proteins. This makes the milk a better food for yeast, which means faster proofing, larger volume, and a fluffier product. It also makes for a smoother dough with better moisture retention.
After reading that I kind of put this into the equation. Is it possible that the scalded milk is retaining more moisture, and retarding the browning action of the oven? Like I said, I have two ranges. The one is an older range that I have used for quite some time and is dependable. The other range is about a year old. It is a Samsung that I did not know had a "hidden" bottom element. At first I thought that I had to figure out it's quirks and get it to where I need it to be. But then, the older one began doing the same thing. I realized then that it was not the ranges, because they both bake other pastries just fine.
Can anyone comment on the possibility of the scalded milk figuring into the equation? Thanks!
Scalded milk is no different from raw milk when it comes to baking.
Baker's milk is not just scalded, it is brought to high temp (brought to full boil three times in a row) and is then held at 95C for 30min. Only then some things are denatured in it and it makes a huge difference in bread volume and texture. Breads made with baker's milk will be 30% taller and fluffier, softer, as compared to raw or simply scalded milk.
To test your ideas, make a batch with raw milk again and see if scalded milk is the culprit.
I suspect that either your ovens bottom heating elements or oven convection are not working as well as before. But then you say that your other baked goods brown normally at the bottom? Only pandesal doesn't? Are other baked goods baked in massive amounts and also rotated and switched positions?
Why would it take so much longer and higher temperatures to denature the proteins for bread than it does for making yogurt?
Milk contains enzymes that are bad for gluten. Denaturing them takes high heat and about 30min of time.
For classic yougurt milk is boiled until it evaporates and reduces in volume in half, then cooled and fermented with thermophilic bacteria. Commercial yougurt is done by using a shortcut, they make milk "denser" or thicker by blending fresh milk with instant dry milk and then ferment that blend. Denaturing milk enzymes is not the goal at all.
Homemade yogurt is done differently. Regular Milk is warmed up and fermented, that is all. It's a different product.
I don't know where you are getting your ideas from, I can't find anything anywhere to corroborate them. Here is a study showing the time it takes to denature milk. About 10 minutes at 190 F.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5355583/
When I make yogurt ( about twice a week ), I bring the milk up close to 200 degrees, cover it and leave it in the oven for an hour or two to cool off. I guarantee you that the milk is pretty well denatured as I get creamy thick yogurt from this after adding some of my previous batches and putting it in my proofing box at @105 degrees overnight.
There is no reason that this wouldn't work for making bread as well, I've used both the whey and the yogurt with good results.
Thank you for describing your method of making your yogurt! For as long as you like your yogurt and your bread, all is well.
I use high heat treated NFDM in baking, it is high heat treated for 30 min. I assume that they (American Dairy Products Institute) know about the 10min being enough rule, but they use 30min in production anyways, and you use the whole hour, although we do not know for how long it stays at or above 190F on your oven.
https://www.adpi.org/DairyProducts/DryMilks/NonfatDryMilk/tabid/100/Default.aspx
They say
In a pinch, when HH nfdm is not available, I bring liquid milk to boil and then keep it in a thermos flask for 30 min and then use in baking. The results are the same as with commercially prepared HH NFDM.
Yes, the other breads are baked on bottom rack, then switched. Some times the bottoms are lighter, sometimes darker. I have two different types of sheet pans. The first ones I bought were Chicago Metallic II which are a aluminized steel pan. The others are all aluminum. They are lighter and shinier than the first.
I think the lighter pans may also be complicit it the under browning. Not sure yet.
I have about 9 of the all aluminum and maybe 9 of the steel/aluminum pans. I decided to use the all aluminum for now. I may change to the more heavier ones next.
Please do not take this the wrong way. In all my years, I have never heard of bakers milk. I have not worked in a commercial bakery, but I have worked in the US Military doing baking. I also worked in local hotel banquet bakeshops, and smaller bakeries. I never was told about baker's milk before. So, if I am reading this correctly, the scalding process is not a crucial factor when mixing and proofing my doughs. As you suggested, I will once again try using un-scalded milk to see if it changes the baking properties. Thanks for the insight and information. I will give an update when I bake again.
Good luck with your pandesal!
Baker's milk is the name of high heat treated milk that King Arthur Flour company uses to sell it. You might have known it as High heat treated dry milk or HHNDM. It is the only milk used in commercial baking mixes and is widely used in commercial baking.
https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/bakers-special-dry-milk
Well, other companies also use that name
https://www.amazon.com/Bakers-High-Heat-Treated-Nonfat-ounces/dp/B007ZEO06O
Commercial bakeries nearly always use high-heat treated dry milk in their yeasted products. It does not inhibit browning, it enhances it.
https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/franklin-farm-high-heat-milk-solids-50-lb-bag
It is specifically recommended to bakers to assist with browning.
https://www.puratos.us/en/products/product-catalog/high-heat-nonfatdrymilk
https://www.aafoods.com/products/nonfat-dry-milk-powders/
Most powdered milk is made with a high heat spray method. Doubtful that there is much difference between the KAF and most off-the-shelf powdered milk. Of course, you could always test that, I couldn't see a difference when I did.
I apologize up front. I googled bakers milk and got dry milk powder. I used to use NFDM when I was in the military, over 22 years ago. I stopped using it because it did not blend well with the flour (in my ancient opinion) back then. I figured, "why not used liquid milk"? It is much easier to use and readily available. Maybe one day I will go back to it. We will see. Thanks, again, for the suggestions.
NFDM comes in low heat LH and high heat HH varieties.
Low heat nfdm is sold as instant milk, it dissolves in water instantly and becomes liquid milk, good to use in the kitchen for all kinds of cooking and baking.It is not good for yeasted baking, though. It affects gluten negatively.
Only HH is good for yeasted baking. It blends easily with flour, not with water.
that is because most regular dried milk is high heat treated, it's just the instant stuff you wouldn't want to use.
Your link was for powdered milk, not liquid milk. It's not my method for making yogurt, it is the most common way of making yogurt, just google it. As for your idea that milk was heated till halve the liquid volume was heated away, I can't find a record of that anywhere. When thicker yogurt desired they just strain the whey to make thicker yogurt. Or use sheep's milk.
Yogurt, an excerpt from 'The Art of Fermentation'
Heating while stirring to evaporate 30-50% of the milk volume is a traditional home and industrial technology of milk preparation for yogurt in Bulgaria where yogurt is from and a host of other countries who adopted that dairy product. It is thousands years old. It is taught to food technologists in every country I guess. But it might be a little known fact to the rest of us.
Obviously the variety of modern yogurts and methods of their preparation is huge, snd new one are invented every year. Some yogurts are smooth, others are grainy, some are thick, others are pourable and drinkable, some are exceedingly, tearjerkingly, (traditionally!)sour, others are mild (most modern yogurts).
Modern yogurt is like pizza. There is no "real" pizza no more, even in Italy there is a variety of pizzas and pizza making methods, including very new and modern ones, let alone other countries pizzas which have become classic in their own right. In the US alone there is a number of famous regional pizzas, etc.
The same is with yogurts. That is why your chosen method is yours, meaning one of many that you chose for yourself because it suits you and gives you the kind of yogurt that you like to eat, or to drink, or to use in your cooking.
You cannot possibly say that your method is the most common one even among homemade yogurts. Millions of Bulgarians don't use your method, for example, or make yogurt that tastes and looks like yours, and I doubt that millions of Americans actually make homemade yogurt. Most Americans (and Canadians) eat and drink commercial yogurts thickened with dry milk powder, starch and other thickeners.
I believe you've lost sight of the topic of this thread. As a general rule, I don't feel the need to contextualize my comments when responding to a narrowly tailored thread, but here goes.
In the context of denaturing milk proteins for use in baking bread.
The common method used for making homemade Yogurt in the United States (using a simple google search to define common) one can sufficiently denature proteins in milk for bread making.
That's it. I supplied a link to facts about temperatures and the time needed to denature proteins in my post that backs up my suggestion that "common" homemade yogurt-making temperatures are a simple way to achieve the goal of both making milk for baking and yogurt for eating.
What they do in commercial yogurt factories or Bulgaria or the fact that you don't even need to denature the milk proteins to make yogurt or even heat it if you are using mesophilic cultures has nothing to do with the context of this thread. I understood that this forum is about baking bread, not the myriad of different ways to culture milk.
I thank you for speaking up about going off on a tangent. I did not get anything out of the whole yogurt making deal. If I need to switch from "liquid" milk to "NFD" milk, then I need to know what the conversion is going to be. In the military, we used only NFD and our recipes reflected that. But, should I use that conversion or is there a more relevant formula to use? Not even sure if I should modify my recipe to substitute "bakers" milk for liquid milk. I do appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions, though.
I have read some of the other comments about my thoughts about pans. I will reply to those soon. Thanks!
As I said, I make yogurt once or twice a week; I use the whey in many of the breads I bake.
I've never used straight milk in anything but Waffles and Pancakes, but I've heard that denaturing the proteins works well for yeasted bread.
If you have a recipe that calls for milk powder, you can buy regular (not instant) powdered milk (or spend a bunch more and buy the stuff from KAF), or you could take your milk, bring it up close to 200 degrees, cover it, wait for it to cool then use that to replace some of the water in your recipe. Since most recipes I've seen call for about a tablespoon or two of milk powder, I would think you wouldn't need more than a quarter cup or so of denatured milk. You could use whatever you have leftover to make yogurt ;0)
Personally, I like the taste and the change in the crumb that adding whey instead of water makes in my rye bread. It is a good use for the byproduct of my other endeavor.
The not-browning problem happened at the same time you changed pans?
That sounds like the culprit.
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"I have two different types of sheet pans. The first ones I bought were Chicago Metallic II which are a aluminized steel pan. The others are all aluminum. They are lighter and shinier than the first."
A shinier pan will generally cause less browning on the bottom, since more of the radiant heat ("radiant heat" is the "shine", like how the sun warms your skin) from the bottom/lower heating element will be reflected. A darker pan absorbs more radiant heat, and transmits it to the dough, causing more browning.
Also, steel transfers heat better than aluminum. So an all aluminum pan will likely cause less browning than one made of steel or of steel+aluminum.
" I think the lighter pans may also be complicit it the under browning. Not sure yet. I have about 9 of the all aluminum and maybe 9 of the steel/aluminum pans. I decided to use the all aluminum for now."
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"I decided to use the all aluminum for now."
Do you mean that you made the switch right before the not-browning problem, or after?
Your theory seems rational (problem correlates to changing pans) and if it is true that the outside of her new pans is polished and shiny, it seems reasonable to think that might contribute to heat loss.
I would suggest a different possibility. Steel takes longer to heat up ( and longer to cool off ) than aluminum. Shinny or not. The different thermal dynamic properties of the two metals could be enough to change the browning properties.
I recently switched to a 1/4" steel sheet in my oven for thin-crusted pizzas for that very reason. My stone works great for bread and thick-crusted pizzas but for thin crust, the heat retention properties of the steel plate produce a much firmer bottom crust on my thin pizzas. No comparison.
Agreed. I touched on that, but perhaps I was not clear enough, or didn't give it enough emphasis.
"Also, steel transfers heat better than aluminum. So an all aluminum pan will likely cause less browning than one made of steel or of steel+aluminum."
So, what was initially happening, was that I have the two different metal pans. These were used interchangeably when I was baking. Some of the rolls were light on the bottom, some were browner. I did not pay as much attention as I should have. My next step, when I bake again, is to separate the pans and bake some with the aluminum only pans, then use the steel-aluminum pans and see what happens.
As of my last baking project, I made the 12 dozen rolls with the all aluminum pans. All of the rolls had to be turned over and browned under the broiler. So, my next attempt will be: 1) use the "scalded" milk. 2) use the steel-aluminum pans. I will let you know what I discovered after I bake. Thanks!
Having a hidden (covered) lower element may also be an issue either by itself or in combination with the all aluminum pan. As even less radiant heat makes it through.
Have you always had the browning-problem on the newer oven with the hidden lower element?
Or did you have good browning with the new oven, and its problem started when you switched pans?
--
My guesses as to what might have happened... subject to further clarifying info...
a. The new oven never browned the rolls properly even with the old pans. Likely due to the covered lower element. You might have started boiling the milk at the same time as using the new oven; and that caused the belief that the milk was at fault.
b. The old oven used to brown the rolls nicely, with the old pans. But the browning problem in this oven started when using the new pans.
Does that fit in with when the pans changed?
Though I never realized it at first, I think you are right about the oven with the hidden element not browning properly from the get-go. I think the shiny aluminum pans exacerbated the problem. But, when the older oven with exposed element started doing the same thing, I think possibly the shiny sheet pans contributed with the browning issue too. I think you may be right all-around!
When I resume baking again, I will check this out (using the steel-aluminum pans).
Inside the baking chamber. Do a thorough search. It isn’t the first time an extra baking sheet has been pretending to be the bottom of the oven and this extra metal keeps heat trapped there instead of heating the oven.
that you are talking about a baking sheet pan being left on the bottom of the oven rack. Or, are you suggesting that the manufacturer may have added an extra sheet of metal that looks like the actual bottom of the oven? As for the sheet pans, there are no sheet pans left in the oven when I am finished baking. And I do not use two pans doubled up when baking. Thanks for the suggestion, though!
sheet actually sitting on the bottom of the oven, not in any rack or shelf. Shiny pans will have lighter bottoms than dull or dark pans.
Another idea....what about lowering the oven temp so there is less switching around of pans, only switch half way thru two sheets baking at the same time. Every time the oven is opened, it adds minutes for the oven to recouperate it's temp. I don't think it's the milk. Have the coils and spannng checked by an electrician to make sure both oven are getting the same amount of power and one is not lowering the other when the thermostats kick in.
This brings up a very valid concern. I do not remember how I came upon the temperature that I now use to bake my rolls. Is there a basic "formula" that will calculate what the correct oven temp will be for a specific type of yeasted bread dough? Or, is a "trial and error" process that over the years people have agreed to for each type of bread?
What is the "rule of thumb" when baking? High heat, to allow for a quick "spring" in the dough, or medium heat for a consistent even bake? I have seen lots of "home" recipes that pretty much state that 350F is a good baking temperature.
I usually bake two different types of yeasted breads. One is the aforementioned Pandesal, the other is an ensaymada which is a brioche type roll. This roll is baked at 370 to 375F until golden brown.
I may be wrong in my thinking, but I believe (and I could be totally out in left field) the longer my rolls are in the oven heat, the more chance they have to dry out. Is that a correct assumption on my part? Just asking.
As far as the ovens are concerned, each oven is on it's own circuit. Meaning that there are separate breakers for each 220 outlet in the breaker panel. The one oven is about 17 y/o and the other is about 2 y/o. I could have the electrician check them out. Thanks!