In this post I will describe the simple formula and process I use for preparing 'sourwort' for my bakes.
150g cracked rye malt (by Weyermann) which I buy from local homebrew supply shops near me
500g tap water at 47C|117F
I put the malt into one of those vacuum seal containers with hand-pump (picture).
Then I pour over it warm water and stir. Pump out air as much as possible to create an oxygen-free enviroment.
The mash must remain under anaerobic conditions at 42-45C|108-113F for the next 36-48 hours untouched. I am lucky enough to possess a Brod&Taylor foldable proofer for this job.
When time comes I open carefully the container because it has become very fizzy.
You' ll be taken by the sour green-apples aroma that emerges out of the container. No putrid activity whatsoever.
I let cool down to room temperature with open lid (no rush) and strain the soured mash using one of those 'French press coffee makers'.
In the picture you can see the strained 'sourwort' in its glass container. The yield is about 300g.
Now it is ready for use to make bread. Or you can store it in the fridge (4C|39F) for the next 1-2 weeks and use it straight from the fridge to make bread at will.
I use this 'sourwort' in conjuction with instant dry yeast to bake my favorite tin loafs and not only.
In my next post I will describe how I make beautiful fragrant sourwort-bread in two and a half hours (plus bake time)
with extraordinary crumb texture.
You 'll be in for a very pleasant surprise with the outcome !!!!!
show
That's very cool. Looks beautiful. I'd love to learn more about your process because under anaerobic conditions I'm wondering how you get yeast replication (budding) and at 42-45C, that's below the saccharification range of the amylases - more in a beta-glucanase (with rye, not a bad call, to avoid making gloop) or low proteolytic range, not necessary in rye or 2-row barley any longer. I'd expect some kind of a rest at 65-70 C (I prefer the higher end, for a-amylase optimum) to saccharify the starches. Are you doing some sort of "sour mash," using prior, acidified mash at all?
Thank you 'Gadjowheaty'.
In the process I describe there is no yeast involved. The temperature mentioned and the anaerobic conditions will suppress spontaneous yeast development and let LAB thrive, which is exactly what it is all about. "Extraction of Lactic Acid Bacteria from Malt". You might be interested in reading 'RusBrot' blog for he is the one who introduced this technique, not me.
And no, I am not using any prior acidified mash as you mention. Just plain rye malt.
Oh sure, sorry. CLAS. Never tried it but many here swear by it. I'll have to give it a shot.
Paul, this sourwort is essentially a flourless CLAS. Flour-based CLAS (or any other flour based sourdough starter, rye or wheat based) could be made from it in one short step. Not that one would need to.
Did you see the original 2015 German article by Jörg Krüger from which this idea (of making and using sourwort in bread) was borrowed?
http://braumagazin.de/article/berliner-weisse/
In English
I found it utterly fascinating that beermeisters acidify their beers this way, with a natural concentrate of lactic acid bacteria from malted grain and their acids. Some people report good results with rye malt, others prefer using pale barley malt to create such sourwort. I would rather try using wheat malt for the same purposes.
Weyermann Malt (with Döhler GmbH) produces a Sour Wort from barley.
https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-sour-wort-2/
https://www.doehler.com/en/lp/sour-wort.html
If I can find this in the USA, could I just use this instead of making my own?
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-sour-wort-20-kg/
I think I saw a smaller one somewhere.
Gary, i have never seen that in our beermaking supplies stores. Ours only sell pure strains of lactic bacteria to make such sour wort without fail.
https://torontobrewing.ca/products/lallemand-wildbrew-sour-pitch-10-g
I think that sour wort that you linked has no living bacteria no more, it's advertised only as a clean label source of lactic acid, whereas homemade sourwort will continue acting as a sourdough starter inside bread dough.
The beauty of the homemade sourworts from the variety of malts is the variety of starters that you can develop from them, or "bread dough aroma improvers".
Would it be possible to use this or similar bacteria instead of the homemade method? Or is it easier to do the homemade method?
It's the same old question, alcophile, what do you prefer in your bread starter - pure sourdough cultures or the wild unknown as in sourdough made from scratch?
All pure cultures ultimately come from nature of course. The larger is your bread production scale, the more you would tend to rely on pure cultures both to maintain the same quality of aroma and taste and to not disrupt the production schedule just because your starter died, got sick or changed its aroma or gassing power. Because making sours and sourdough starters from pure culture is quick and easy, on schedule as well.
In Canada we have a company that offers four different pure sourdough cultures, one or two of them are sold by Modernist Bread Pantry to the retail customers, you can activate them and propagate them for a long time:
https://modernistpantry.com/products/florapan-la4-starter-culture.html
https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/canada/brands/florapan-sourdough-baking-cultures/
Scroll to the bottom of that page to see the difference in aromas and acidity, pls.
At home it is easier and more interesting (and cheaper) to play with flours, malts, fruits/berries and other wild sources of microbes in hopes of catching something unique and unexpected. It is easier and quicker to create a sourdough starter from malt than from flour though, a little known fact.
I use pure cultures only in homemade dairy creations, yogurts, kefirs, sour creams, cheeses, etc. in order to obtain that specific aroma and texture. I bake bread on a small scale, keeping two sd starters going, rye and wheat, so I like experimenting with spontaneous fermentation of flours and malts on the side. I like it better.
Yes, I assumed that would be dead. I have ordered some pale rye malt to enjoy making it myself. Looks like a fun experiment.
HI Mariana, thank you for the clarification on the CLAS process, about which I know almost nothing. Lots to learn.
I didn't know about this specific method on acidification re brewing but I reference a method (for the same purpose) in the making of sauermalz. I've never actually done it (as I mention in the post, I used both hydrochloric and sulfuric acid, which really freaks people out but it's common in British brewing. Ca, Cl and SO4 all do specific good things for various British beer styles). Most get their water treatment acids from these guys.
Traditionally the brewers would allow the mash itself to do an "acid rest" overnight at 35-45C, which as you know is propitious for lactobacilli. Now they do something like it seems is being described in the article (thanks!), a separate propagation with wort, something like yeast propagation in yeast brinks. This is then added in to acidify the mash. As with sauermalz, which can be added in with known pH in known quantities, this addition of acidified wort also allows good control of the process (unlike the traditional method, which could be pretty variable).
I agree with you that wheat is a great choice and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they actually do that in the making of Berliner Weisse and related - these are ales, so they don't fall afoul of the requirement to use only barley in the making of lagers.
At a local home brew shop I see a wide variety of Weyermann products. Can you be more specific about the one you use?
Thanks
Regular rye malt is what you're looking for. Many companies produce it, Briess stateside for one. Weyermann makes many proprietary malts, but those are barley malts and I don't believe they make anything but regular, rye "base" malt. They are a superior company in every way, though to be honest I don't know it's worth the premium when you're just using the rye like this (not as a quality flavoring component in beer, for example).
Weyermann also produces CaraRye caramel rye malt and Chocolate Rye malt (looks like dark cocoa):
CaraRye
Chocolate Rye Malt
I purchased some of the Chocolate Rye at a homebrew store. One of the recipes in The Rye Baker uses black rye malt, but now I'm not so sure the Chocolate Rye is what I should use (see recent solod discussion). The price was not all that bad compared to price of specialty flours.
(Note: Edited the link to CaraRye)
Shows I've been out of the game a long time! I liked their cara- series in barley.
Is it black rye malt or black rye flour? If it's flour, I wouldn't think the chocolate and black rye would be a good sub because the chocolate is a roasted malt and black rye is something like our first clear in wheat flour.
They are both malts. Not the elusive (for North Americans) Schwarzroggenmehl.
Just in case it's not clear what I'm asking, I know the above you listed are both malts, but are you sure Ginsberg is calling for black rye malt, and not black rye flour? You may know - but I ask because the flour, common in Austria and used in Germany, R2500, is not a malt but just the milled grain - the reserved portion, in part at least, of what's left after milling when more of the endosperm flour is taken - the rye analogue to wheat's first clear.
So - is Ginsberg calling for black malt, or black rye flour? That's what I'm wondering.
Ah, I misunderstood.
In Ginsberg's Pumpkinseed Rye (Kürbiskernbrot) in The Rye Baker book, he uses black rye malt at 1.8%. He states in the description that the flavor is "accented by the burnt notes of black rye malt." But all the discussion of German rye malts for baking makes me question what I should use. I wish I could understand the podcasts on German malts.linked in the solod thread.
OK, thanks. He refers back to pg. 42 for a better description and...he's wrong, lol. First, as we've learned, red rye malt is not simply a rye malt that's been roasted. I believe the commercial product, which he used to sell, comes from the English maltsters Munton's. As Ilya called it, it is "faux" red rye malt. Personally if I didn't have the true red rye malt, I'd sub in a darker crysta malt. Not the same thing as red rye malt at all, but with simple roasted malt you've wasted the sugar enzymes, and lose that sweetness that is endemic to both mashed rye malt and red rye malt (both sweet and sour). I'd opt for Crystal 80 or, for more toffeeish, roasted tones, I'd go with 120. I think it works really well with dark rye breads (mind you, this just based on the experience of several months now, nothing more). I used C120 a lot, particularly in things like strong scotch ale (I mentioned the competition. This was a strong scotch ale, "Seven Suns Strong Scotch Ale," for the seven malts in the ale). I also like it in "Baltic" or "Imperial Porters."**
And I'll be damned, he does call for black rye malt, good close attention as I would have missed the pickup. I thought for sure this was an instance of his calling for black rye flour, that R2500. And I've never heard of black rye malt. I'm doubtful it exists but I very well could be wrong. Have you searched for it?
** Kind of cool, my wife's uncle ran the Tartu Õlletehas, Estonia, during Soviet occupation and retired shortly after the fall of the USSR. He's talked about in one of Michael Jackson's (beer writer. Not "king of pop") books on world beer. They produced a fantastic Imperial or Baltic porter.
Edit 2: Whoops, I do see references to dark rye malt used in baking. Not sure it's black, but probably what he's referring to?
https://puratosmalt.com/products/dark-rye-malt
https://agrarzone.com/organic-baking-malt-rye-malt-dark
https://www.ulprospector.com/en/la/Food/Detail/15558/335779/Weyermann-Dark-Rye-Malt
Here's one specifically named chocolate rye malt:
https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Home-Brewing-Supplies/Malted-Grain-Sugar/Dark-Malt/240-L-Chocolate-Rye-Malt
And here's one for a black rye malt.
https://riverbendmalt.com/malt/seashore-black-rye/ - I'm uncertain if this is black rye malt. I don't know of a "black rye" variety of grain, only black rye flour, so I don't know what this one is.
I am very curious to try these. I'd think one would have to be very careful if making it on one's own, as I would think it's easy to go from a gentle roasting to the right color, to ending up with burnt like hell malt. Like doing dark invert sugar or caramel, easy does it and watch it like a hawk as it gets close. That's my experience with this kind of a process.
Edit: I also want to apologize on the error regarding black rye malt. I should look first before making statements. I was wrong.
The last link you listed mentions an heirloom variety of rye, Seashore Black Rye. Ginsberg uses it in a recipe (Heirloom Dixie Rye) on theryebaker.com. I just baked this recipe using regular whole rye (he has instructions for this) but it turned out to be a "ryesaster." I'll post more on this on the CB.
I just checked the red rye malt I purchased from Ginsberg's NY Bakers and it is Fawcett's Crystal Rye, another fine English maltster.
Your links for dark or black rye malt are interesting. These add to my confusion surrounding the inactive rye malts (yes, I'm still confused about the whole thing!). Is the product on the agrarzone.de site fermented on not? I also found this product:
https://www.hobbybaecker.de/brot-und-broetchen/backmittel/roggenmalz-geroestet-400-g-dose#anfrage
I sent an inquiry to them asking whether it is fermented before roasting.
The Puratos rye malt (220–280 EBC) is a little darker than Weyemann's CaraRye (150–200 EBC) and Fawcett's Crystal Rye (125–250 EBC; 70–80° L). I think I might try the recipe linked on that product page.
I purchased Weyermann Chocolate Rye from a homebrew store in Janesville. The ground malt looks like French roast coffee powder. Even though Weyermann and others produce these more highly roasted rye malts, I'm wary of Ginsberg's use of it based on the confusion. Is it traditional? Maybe it doesn't matter.
Lol, hobbybaecker is going to wonder what the hell is going on with us Americans. I queried them on the same thing. Their initial response was:
-which doesn't address the question I asked, same as yours, but was a kind of boilerplate description of its baking qualities, etc. Which is fine. Maybe they feel a bit tetchy about disclosing a manufacturing method? I don't know - certainly don't want to tread on that. I thanked them and sent the same question, basically:
So, between us hopefully we'll get some news. IMO we can conclude these malts in Germany are as Ilya says, all in essence a "red rye malt" that is fermented. Not sure if they are roasted or not, obviously adding to the confusion is that some labels and info indicate "roasted" and others do not. On the dark rye malts, just happened to notice that the Puratos is listed as a pH of 4.0-4.4 but that doesn't give us anything because darker malts will all give this range in distilled water. Looking at the description of the agrarzone, it seems doubtful to me its fermented, but is roasted - like chocolate malt? The Weyermann chocolate rye is, I think, just a rye version of barley chocolate (or black patent, etc.) malt, i.e., malted rye that has been roasted without any saccharification in the drum (as with crystal malts) or fermentation. Probably for those doing a mild or a porter (not imo a robust or imperial porter - your everyday porter, which tends to have chocolate in it more than the higher gravity porters, in my experience). Some folks like rye malt in brewing and may want those coffee-ish or roast notes on top of the certain rye spiciness (I don't know what happens to that quality with roasted rye malt), not sure. Like I said, just not to my taste but lots of people love at least some rye. Also I think I'd prefer to sub in C120 or something like that rather than a roasted malt like a chocolate malt, but each to their own. Probably worth working with all this stuff on an identical formula but for this component!Have you tried asking on your Facebook groups about Roggenmalz dunkel? I am not a Facebook member; never was, never will.
Yes, but another time - it's already a bloody mess!
OK, here's one possibility. What the German's call "aromamalzmehl" is a kind of inactive malted flour that is the darker stuff we saw earlier - it's available in rye, wheat, barley. I imagine this is much like the chocolate malt species. This is what Brotdoc refers to in this recipe. In the comments he specifically refers to this company, and their product:
Aroma-Malzmehl
This, however, is different, I believe, from Roggenmalzpulver. From Brotdoc's recipe:
"15 g Roggenmalzpulver..."
It's Roggenmalzpulver, I believe, which is the fermented malt product we're talking about:
Now, I'm not sure how tightly these names are regulated (I imagined highly? But I'm seeing some evidence otherwise?), as I've seen some "pulver" pages seeming to imply the simple "aromamalz" (translated):
It is possible that the rye malt is fermented, but not in the process used for solod. I found this other site, bongu.de, that sells a rye flavor piece (Roggenaromastück) that is:
This product was mentioned in the Comments as used by Dietmar Kappl for the Schwarze Muckel at homebaking.at. It may, or may not, be the same as that referred by der Brotdoc. Did you click the link at Adler for the inactive malts? Here's the translation:
Sounds like a crystal rye malt, not fermented. So, possibly two different products. Oy!
I have laid the question out. Will let you know.
You can't use his book as a source for that information, you'll need to do further research. He took a lot of shortcuts, and while it is a good reference, there are plenty of errors in facts and misappropriation ( I know this is a funny word to use in the context of baking, but it seems to fit).
I did make the Pumpkinseed Rye (Kürbiskernbrot) in The Rye Baker using Weyermann Roggenröstmalz (Chocolate Rye malt).
Was authentic or traditional? I don't know. Was it delicious? Absolutely!!
In addition to brewing applications, Weyermann also offers its malts to the food and baking industry:
https://www.weyermann.de/product/weyermann-roggenroestmalz-2/?cat=lebensmittel-roggenmalz
https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-chocolate-rye-malt-4/?cat=food-rye-malt-en-us
brouwland.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=15181&filename=Specification.pdf
I'm just getting referred back to this post, or your original post, but if I cut and paste the links, it goes to the product page. Yes, that's straight rye malt. I much prefer Weyermann to Briess in general, but here's Briess's (for some reason I can't link directly to the rye malt product detail .pdf, but if you scroll down or do a "find" for rye malt, it's there.
As far as I understood you, you got this method from here:
https://brotgost.blogspot.com/2016/11/blog-post.html
Have you developed some general rule(s) about which % of total water in bread recipe should be substituted in order to achieve the best effect? How does that shorten the total bulk fermentation time? Have you measured your sourwort's TTA and pH?
Soviet bread technologists developed the same use and explicit rules for the use of a different sour liquid full of lactic bacteria to replace some of the total water in yeasted breads: soured whey (the byproduct of cheese production). Your method is better, because your sourwort is purely grain based, so it results is no animal/dairy products in bread which is important to many people for a variety of reasons.
Thank you 'mariana', your input is much appreciated, as always in this forum.
You are absolutely right as to where I was inspired from. I mention this clearly in my introductory post https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69893/sourwort
So far, I only had the chance to try two different percentage levels of total recipe water substitution: 33.3% (1/3) and 40%. And in baker's terms 25% and 30%, since the hydration of my loaves is usually 75%. No scientific rationale behind it, just by trial and error. Both levels seem to work equally well, judging by the effect on gluten (crumb structure) and taste. See here https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69903/sourwort-bread an example of the 40% level. Perhaps in my next bakes I will be brave enough to pump this up (say by increments of 5) and see how it behaves. My main worry, as you might have guessed, is gluten deterioration before bake time. (What's another failure!!!!!)
In my bake-example (link above) I use instant-dry-yeast (IDY) as the main lifting agent. The % used (0.8%) I consider it to be on the low side of the spectrum (I'm sure one can go even lower). However to my pleasant surprise the mix-to-bake time was only two and a half hours. The 'sourwort' technique except all else, has a profound effect on accelerating fermentation times.
And this is exactly the reason why I feel all that excited. Once you have brewed your 'sourwort' (a job no more difficult than preparing filter-coffee really) it waits for you patiently in the fridge without loosing any of its properties, until you decide on a whim to make bread. And there you have it on your table 3.5 hours later. No maintenance regimes, no hustle, no natural or yeasted preferments, no elongated bulk times, no retardation schemes, no prescheduling, no cleaning, no smoking (sorry I got carried away!) and lots of another no's. And as a result you get beautiful, fragrant, fluffy, tasty bread equivalent to our beloved sourdough (not to be missunderstood, I've ben using sourdough in the last decade now, with satisfactory results)."Are You Not Entertained? !!!"
My budget does not allow me to possess a reliable pH meter, although I would very much love to have one. Therefore I cannot answer to you on the pH/TTA level of my 'sourwort' or my bread-doughs. However using those inexpensive pH strips it gives me a result somewhere between 3.4 and 3.8. Taste wise is a bit milder than a 5 degree apple-cider vinegar which I believe is around 3.0.
Also, my humble baking-instict tells me that probably there is a lot of room for application in rye-breads. I have no experience on 'ryes', so I leave that to the good experts around here in TFL.
I've read your posts and it sounds pretty cool! And indeed it sounds exactly like flourless CLAS, with a very similar pH. It's interesting that Rus Brot also recommends to create and maintain CLAS with some addition of malt, he says it improves flavour (and probability it starts lacto fermenting to begin with).
I think you mentioned you've tried his version of CLAS too - so I am curious how this method compares to it? CLAS you can maintain by feeding and be confident that it'll be ready to bake when you need it. However with it you have to add some portion of flour, and that can limit the amount of it you would add to a dough.
Thanks 'Ilya Flyamer'.
It so happens that it was firstly reading your posts here in TFL, as well as 'Yippee's, that drew my attention to this so called CLAS technique, a type II Sourdough basically. And then of course (following your links), reading the information "straight from the horse's mouth" so to speak, i.e. 'RusBrot' blog.
I have no experience with 'ryes' so I applied this method to my mostly-wheat bread experiments that followed. Reached all the way up to 8% (flour in CLAS to total flour in recipe) use with good results. Pleasant tangy notes and aromas not usually found in straight-dough yeast breads. Near sourdough type I results. Great stuff. Really.
For me, the thing that tilted the balance towards 'sourwort' is the magical effect it has on gluten. Whereas taste and fermentation times match closely that of CLAS, its conditioning effect on gluten is unparalleled. My wheat breads burst out of their baking-pans like balloons even with high degrees of whole wheat added. And open crumb emerges out of nowhere (I mean no special techniques used to promote this holy-grail for many). The crumb is open, fluffy and very very shiny, cotton like appearence. As if 'sourwort' was an excellent emulsifier of some sort.
Harry Potter stuff !!!
Can't agree with you more!
Yippee
Hi, Mariana:
As always, I would be very grateful if you could share your insights on the application of sourwort in bread.
Thank you!
Yippee
Hi Yippee,
This liquid is not really sour "wort", because wort means something quite specific in bread and beer technology. True wort is a mix of 300g malt and 1L water that is taken through three steps of heating: 30min at 45C, then 1hr at 55C, finally for 2-3hrs at 63C. At this moment the wort is ready to be filtered, cooled to the desired temperature, diluted and used to grow any microbial cultures: yeast or lactic bacteria
It is a flourless lactic acid starter that can be used in a variety of ways
1) to make other starters from it in one stap by adding to it flour and water, or by adding yeast to it or a source of yeast (raisins, a pinch of whole wheat or whole spelt flour, etc).
This starter itself can be propagated indefinitely as well by feeding it clean water and either a portion of scalded flour, a portion of wort, or a handful of cracked/ground malt. Keep it at 38-42C for at least 6 hours or until it reaches the desired degree of acidity. The degree of acidity is checked by checking the pH value (about 3.3 to 3.6) or by tasting.
2) to make preferments (levains, sponges, bigas, sd poolishes, etc) as you would do with any other sourdough starter.
3) to speed up the process of preparing any yeasted dough by replacing 10-15% of water in the recipe with this lactic acid starter. By that I mean that in the recipe from 1000g of flour, you would use 100-150g of flourless starter and the remaining liquid as in the recipe (water, milk, etc)
The straight yeasted dough that usually takes 2-4 hours of bulk fermentation will be ready in 40-90min instead. Of course, you can use this starter to accelerate preparation of yeasted preferments as well.
4) to compensate for the lack of lactic bacteria in modern yeast (which is super pure due to the advances in yeast production technology), in flour, and in your baking environment. I.e. in bakeries lactic bacteria are everywhere and even their purely yeasted doughs have lactic fermentation going on which makes their breads better with a typical bakery quality and aroma impossible to achieve at home unless you add a bit of French style sourdough starter to your yeasted preferments and yeasted doughs.
It won't alter the traditional length of the dough preparation, but it will make it smell 'yougurty' when raw and heavenly when baked.
5) finally, it can be used in sauercraut fermentation and some folks even use it to sour or curdle milk, to use in dairy-free soda bread and muffin baking, etc., etc., etc.
I am not into CLAS myself, although I adore it aroma, because I find that it alters the taste of breads somewhat. I prefer other flour based sourdough starters. But I love flourless sourdough starters. They are the greatest, really. As the topicstarter mentioned, they are unbelievable as bread improverw, they improve both wheat and rye breads. Mine are true "sourdough starters, with wild yeast , not just with LAB, prepared in at 32-33C, ready to bake with them in 2 days. This is how it looks like, flourless rye starter, this one was made from 20g of rye flour and a cup of water.
I also never tried making Andrey's CLAS (the Russian speaking surgeon who bakes bread in Germany, whom you call rusbrot, which is the name of his youtube channel, it means "Russisch Brot" = Russian bread). I don't even know how close is his CLAS to the real deal, to what is sold as CLAS by the institute of bread technology in Moscow.
I have both rye and wheat malts at home and even sprouted spelt, so I might give this German/Berliner liquid lactic starter a try as well. Flourless starters keep very well refrigerated, up to one month without refreshment, easy, and can be used straight from the fridge in any of the above applications.
Best wishes,
m.
i.e. a concentrated lactic acid "starter" (minus the yeasts) and then add in some bakers yeast for the rise then why not just use yoghurt? It makes a tasty bread. Will add nice texture too.
I'm interested in your wort sourdough starter Mariana. May I suggest you do an in-depth write-up? I'd be most grateful.
Of course, we can add some lactic acid with yoghurt or with sour whey which we drained from yoghurt when we prepared a homemade Greek yoghurt. It makes a very tasty bread indeed,one of my favorites. However, that alters bread formula and bread label, makes a different bread.
Also, lactic acid bacteria in yoghurt do not ferment bread dough, they need lactose and very high temperatures for that to happen. Whereas malt based lactic acid starter has live cultures that will work in bread dough all the way, at any temperature, they feed on maltose and other sugars naturally found in flour.
Thank you for the invitation to write about flourless sourdough starters, Abe. I am a bit hesitant, because they need warm temperatures which I find inside my programmable bread machine, Zojirushi Virtuoso. It keeps 32-33C for 12hrs non stop which is very convenient.
Most people either have non-programmable bread machines or make their starters at room temperature, in 18-27C temperature range without strict temperature control, so such method would be of no interest to them. I myself try to rely only on easy methods without any special gear in home baking, to make bread truly affordable and easy. I just happen to have that bread machine, I do not know how else to achieve such temperature for 2-3 days non stop.
Temperature control is easy and cheap.
A controller like this BN-LINK is $19 from Amazon. Plug a low wattage light into it and put it in a cooler.
I use a Mr. Coffee cup heater instead of a light because I already had it.
Gary, thank you so much for your advice!
I need that Mr.Coffee cup heater!!! I am getting myself one right away. My coffee always gets unpleasantly cold before I finish drinking my cup of coffee as I work at my desk.
I will also get the controller you linked and test how it works. Thank you for the advice! At one point I got myself Brod&Taylor, tested it and decided it was not for me - it being too big for my kitchen and for what I needed it for was the most deciding factor, so I gifted it to someone else.
Maybe your setup will work better for me. I don't have to use a cooler which I don't own, just my bread machine chamber, oven, or any other 'box'/enclosed space, I guess.
Where do you keep the temperature probe during that time, i.e. which temperature do you control - air, walls/bottom of the box, the dough/starter etc.?
Thank you!
m.
I typically have the probe taped to the side of the cooler. If I'm being extra careful I attach it to the vessel containing my ferment with a rubber band or tape. The better insulated the enclosure the better controlled will be the temperature.
Some years ago I bought a tiny bluetooth thermometer and then I made a "dry suit" for it with one of those vacuum sealers. I can float an thermometer in my vessel and monitor the temperature independently of the controller. I've been able to verify good temperature stability. Right now I've got a mason jar of water with the thermometer floating inside to verify that my setup can hold 42C.
A crock pot is perfect if your container will fit inside. I might use a crock pot with a jar inside for this experiment.
Gary, I got the controller with a good range of temperatures (up to the temperature of the boiling water, for the scalds for some Baltic and Russian breads) and the mug warmer.
Apparently, the mug warmer heats up to 120F/48C or so, therefore I can use it directly to place the cup with the starter on it and control its temperature. Just covering the entire set up with a towel or an inverted pot might do the trick. I might be mistaken. I will test the variety of the set ups.
Thank you for the advice on taping the probe to the walls of the vessel or using a rubber band for it. 👌👍👍👍
The bluetooth thermometer with a dry suit makes me speechless. I am so envious. SO ENVIOUS!!! LOL
Thank you for giving me specific examples and explaining things in a non-scary way. : )
I got one, too! Thanks for the ideas, Mariana and Gary!
I plan to use it for making non-rye CLAS, which I need in much smaller quantities in my experimental recipes.
Yippee
Hi, Mariana:
The setup in my last picture is not feasible because the mug would get too hot from direct contact with the warmer🔥. So I used water as a buffer and placed the entire setup inside the Instant Pot with the lid on to minimize heat loss as follows:
Making 150g of buckwheat CLAS:
Water bath works, Yippee! I tried that in the past as well. It definitely works. So, good for you! Good luck with the buckwheat CLAS. What do you need it for?
Personally, I prefer dry setups, using air as a buffer, i.e. I use a small rack above the heating element just like in any oven or in Brod&Taylor proofing cabinet. Such rack is not necessary if you work with thermophilic sourdough starters or yogurts, they are OK with the wide range of hot temperatures and in B&T proofer yogurts are made sitting directly on the heating element. But for the mesophilic LAB cultures as in CLAS a buffer is definitely necessary.
I've made CLAS by putting a heating pad inside a large clip-on storage container, and then putting a small plastic container with flour/water directly onto the pad. The pad actually struggles to reach ~40C, I also had to wrap all this into a blanket. But it worked really well this way.
In my current flat I have an oven which when set to 35C maintains a perfect 40.5C (I also keep the container on a baking steel there to reduce any temperature fluctuations, and insert baking sheets on top and bottom to reduce radiant heat transfer), so it's really easy now.
Hi Yippee,
Is this the formula for buckwheat clas?
100 gr ground whole buckwheat
140 gr water
10 gr vinegar
Mix and put plastic film. keep 24 h at 40C as for rye/wheat clas?
Do you need a malt of some type and will the Arrowhead Mills (11% fiber so it is not the whole grain buckwheat) ground buckwheat flour work?
And MUST use malt or the stinky bacteria will take over. I failed twice because I ran out of barley malt and was too lazy to buy it. Once I used barley malt, everything went well, except for the pH meter incident
:
I used freshly ground buckwheat flour; not sure about the Arrowhead Mills flour. I guess you have to try it to find out.
Yippee
Did you use the groats (hulled seed) or the raw whole seed with hull?
Thanks!
(25 gr malt, 75 gr ground buckwheat)
190% hydr not 150% as for wheat?
And 190% hydration.
Yippee
deleted
The probe that came with the controller I purchased is rated IP68 (immersion to 1 m). I should be able to use it directly in the culture. I was also going to use the controller for scalds that are maintained at 55 °C or 65 °C in a crock pot like Gary suggested.
I got myself exactly the same model! I was thinking about immersing the probe as well. We'll see how that works if at all.
If you are going to do it in a crockpot partially filled with water in which your cup with the starters sits, then it is better to immerse it into that water. Water is not corrosive as acids in the starter.
Gary's suggestion about taping it to the side of the vessel is good as well.
I use the Inkbird with a Crockpot for my mashes/scalds, and I've been very happy with it so far. I also use one with a heating pad for my proofing box. The water in the bottom of the Crockpot would certainly work, but I haven't had to do that. Lay the probe in the bottom of the crock next to the vessel holding your wet grains (I use a bowl tightly covered with foil.) Put the lid on the Crockpot and then insulate it by draping a couple towels over it. Keeps everything clean and dry.
To avoid overshooting, I use the Warm setting for temps up to 150 deg F and then the Low setting for anything over that.
Thank you for sharing, Troy! Very valuable!
How do you use your heating pad? Do you put things straight on top of the pad or on a rack on top of the pad? Do you control the temperature of the pad itself or of the air inside the proofing box?
FWIW I use seedling germination mats on the cooler (my re-purposed proofing box, 72 quart picnic cooler) floor with a long cooling rack set on the pads, so bulk bowls, bannetons etc. do not rest on the pads. I have a large container of water that sits directly on the heating pad for some, though admittedly not enough humidity, though all my dough containers are covered with elastic shower caps anyway. My Inkbird probe is mounted midway up a side wall of the cooler for a better read of the chamber temperature. Works well for me.
Excellent set up!
Thank you, Paul! You connect several pads to one controller?
I usually place baking sheets with rolls or even pans with rising breads in them etc directly on top of the heating pad set on low.
But not so for the starters, they always sit on a rack to avoid overheating their bottoms.
I'm sorry Mariana, I wasn't clear. I have several controllers from brewing and cheesemaking days, for controlling cellar temps. No, I might have two for 2 different loaves at different stages (separate coolers, one pad per cooler) but generally I just have the one.
Your direct placement of the sheets on the pad - is this something like a bed heating pad, something one puts under one's back, etc.?
I have a few humidity controllers and a few ways of generating humidity (alpine cheeses are crazy - needing about 10-12C and upwards of 94-96% humidity!), and would love to build a DIY proofing box controlling both temp and RH. First things first - like basics on a loaf of bread!
Ok, thanks, Paul.
Yes I have two Sunbeam heating pads with removable covers, no autoshut off. One of their temperature setting is perfect for proof (42C) another - for scalds(65C). One pad is almost square and another is long, the length of the baking sheet, a perfect fit.
That's great, I'd like to give it a try, mariana, thanks. I'm used to proofing at around 26-28C (or, new to me, for both Brotdoc and Lutz's formulas, most of them are at a room temperature of 20-22C). Can you help me better understand the use of the higher temp of your proofing? Is this customary, or is this something you do to optimize something you're looking for?
Mariana, My proofing box is a true DIY hack job. But it works... :-)
I have a large tote from Walmart in my basement. The tote sits on a piece of 2" styrofoam insulation to insulate from the cold basement floor. The tote is wrapped in a piece of fiberglass insulation left over from when we built the house. Then, another piece of 2" styrofoam sits on top to insulate the lid.
Inside, the heating pad (1st Aid section at Walmart) sits on the bottom of the tote. Upside down and on top of that is an old, heavier cookie sheet to disperse the heat evenly. I have two stations inside and each has about an inch of lift from styrofoam pads to keep the bulking containers off the cookie sheet. The probe is stationed about 3" off the cookie sheet to measure air temp. Using 6-quart square cambros, I can bulk ferment 8 loaves (about 5 kg) of dough at a time. I have a single dough in a 4-quart covered bowl that I'm fermenting now in the picture below. Oddly enough, my phone camera didn't capture all of the LED's on the Inkbird controller. Temp was 76.4 deg with a setpoint of 76 deg.
This is a very well thought setup, Paul. Thank you for the well illustrated lesson on how to do it.
It amazes me that you keep the temperature so close to the desired one. 0.4F difference! Unbelievable!
I have the controller set to a 1 deg differential. When the temp drops to 75 deg, the controller turns on the heating pad. When it hits 77 deg, it turns it off. Because of the lag, the temp usually wanders up to about 77.2 deg before it starts coming back down. Likewise, it gets down to about 74.8 before heating back up. So, the air temp varies by about 2.5 deg F, but that occurs over a long enough cycle that the dough temp stays pretty constant at 76 deg. I just happened to grab the picture at a point in time when it was close to the setpoint. :-)
Thank you, Troy! I got my Inkbird delivered today but haven't started playing with it yet. I feel so lucky to be able to learn all those precious details from you.
These homemade setups cost way less than ready made proofing boxes and are so much fun! Very precise temp control and any size you want, as roomy or as miniature as you need for your baking needs.
Thank you!
Have fun with the new toy and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions on the setup!
Oh, that's in C, and I had to tweak it as I couldn't figure out why I was getting such high overruns, so that was just a lucky moment, lol.
On both overruns and cooling-off phases, it was clicking back on and off until way off target temp. I realized that though I set the Inkbird to C, for some reason it has the differential(s) as if it were still in F (e.g., a couple degrees F, but it was actually a couple degrees C). I went back in and the lowest differential I can set in C is .3 C, which is fine. I use the "cook" setting to get me up to temp. then "warming" setting on the rice cooker will do a good job of avoiding large overruns. I usually let the whole thing settle in for a half hour or so before adding my malt porridge, or whatever I'm doing. Works pretty well for me.
Are you concerned with the Crockpot insert cracking without any liquid in it? The instructions on mine do not recommend heating the crock when empty. I realize that it's not completely empty, but there is no liquid for heat transfer. Maybe I shouldn't worry.
We're not letting it get very hot because the controller is turning it off. Adding some water to the bottom wouldn't hurt but I don't think you have to worry about cracking without it.
Water in the crockpot allows to even out temperatures, so that both the top and the bottom of the cup or the lunchbox with the starter maintain the same temperature.
I once even placed my liquid starter in a ziplock bag floating in a warm bath sitting on a heating pad for that reason. It worked. It was anaerobic, I squeezed all air out of the bag and fermentation proceeded speedily.
That's really clever. I put enough water in it so that my whatever-it-is floats and the water just comes up the top of the material (I try to leave about 1/4" or so freely floating above the water line so as to contaminate the material). I'm doing it right now, in fact - doing a malted rye porridge for the next few hours at 65.5 C, after which I'll raise it to 71 C to stop all conversion activity where it is.
I was worried about the gradient and checked my last mash with a probe a few hours in. The mash temp matched up with the controller temp well. BUT... It was a small amount of mash and relatively thin. Will definitely try the water bath if I end up doing something larger. Thanks for the tip!
Agree with Gary.
Hi,
I wanted to make my crockpot work with a temp controller but when the temp controller detected a temp drop outside the target range, the crockpot resumed heating . The input of heat raised the temp much higher than the target set for (5-10F higher). I tried the crockpot at HI, LOW, and WARM settings but could not control the temps. This behavior might be specific to a particular model crockpot.
My tub yogurt maker (an old simple one) works at about 104F for making yogurt. So I think that is why maintaining the temp of a water bath at 85F to 120F with a temp controller was not a problem.
I have some thoughts concerning this issue. I tested a Crockpot at 65 °C for the feasibility of performing a scald for 12+ hours. The Crockpot was able to maintain a water bath at this temperature; I was planning on having the scald ingredients in a container floating in the bath. I have not tried it to see if it maintains the setpoint at a lower temperature.
Maintaining the temperature at a lower setpoint may be more difficult because the heat output of the Crockpot is too high. This can create wide swings. The yogurt maker may have a lower wattage heating element. Does the controller have an adjustable hysteresis (interval)? I would set it at the smallest possible range to minimize the swings.
Is the temp. probe in a water bath or directly in the sourwort? Using a water bath may help even out the heating cycles by providing a heat sink for the Crockpot's heating element.
Hi,
I was trying to make the fermented red rye (solod) starting with rye malt (rusbrot's method). I got through the 10 hrs at 40C stage (in a BT proofer, max 49C) but I couldn't make it through the 65C stage. (Now I have a lot of rye in the freezer for porridge?!)
Water Bath:
When I make clas, I use a glass jar in a water bath - 40C- and the probe is in the water in the yogurt maker. It works well.
But with trying to make solod, since I had 500 gr of rye malt then I put it directly in the crockpot (I have a small one). As you know, it didn't work.
I am thinking of paying $20 for solod on ebay. I just hesitate knowing who is a reputable dealer.
Thanks again for your help!
xx
Can you share which dealers you've found? We could share our experiences, if any, with the brands of solod that are available to you.
I found this ebay offer. The package looks like the ones I 've seen youtube rye bakers recommend.
Thank you for your help! Have you used this powder before and if so, does it give a tremendous addition to flavor?
I have enjoyed reading and studying your clas bakes!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255138209887?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110013%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIMRXI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D240657%26meid%3D0a73f5be5c054615b6ccf8249575119e%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D134189340012%26itm%3D255138209887%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedRVI&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A2551382098870a73f5be5c054615b6ccf8249575119e%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABAIq9Pd1eiueKRlho1pRz6mJRoDqwNlSGickbl88sDIHR72EepW62YRVoNEG2qzTeSCLk0ZzS2wSWpisnMVfBq9GpLdu4NjzYGrnwB%252Fp5A6IGsupgXU62SjZYVDJ%252F84IsJezLoDzHWUXjoYEX3p5%252BWAnkdwlj3uddvg5Ik5vzy6uoXUYZJDWDcp4grLumCTBTuOwQdD6NmO1MswiaiLjQOzhucNb9R7Ee4x3YfEx9FTKErY%252BUzB0hZ4oeu4umdg6DNg7qT%252F8dlPrC3kDUZoq6hbGRfnvZHa7Fr8ZoWx26Kqrhjf97G4DOyUtFAgc3VB5vpqsCcAs4t1MvC8zlfo0xRuw%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675&epid=19051512917
Yep, this is a very common Russian brand of baking products, I have tried this solod. Go for it! Or if you see any source from Ukraine, should you like to support them, I am sure they are great too (I have some Ukrainian solod now, but don't see that brand listed on ebay at the moment...).
The aroma of red rye malt is not comparable to anything else (e.g. crystal rye that is often suggested as a substitute, is not even in the ballpark, if I am being honest), it's incredibly deep and strong, and it also adds a great colour. You need just a little of it to get fantastic flavour in a rye bread, it really makes a huge difference.
Thanks!
I will order it then.
I would be glad to order Ukraine products. Do you have a link for a source?
Update: My order out of Ukraine was processed in just 2 days and has left Kiev!
These appear to be Ukrainian brands, but not the one I have.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/325243331295?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110018%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D241432%26meid%…
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234515380788?hash=item369a34ba34:g:s1EAAOSwk75iXbDZ&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4F7gP64jJV%2FgCJtBCoWgTEW1eb8%2BawgkWB%2Fitkc…
Should I find i'm too busy to bake one week i'll buy some "sourdough" bread. There are very many places which sell true sourdough but I did find myself buying one brand but after looking at the label it was a mix of yeast, yoghurt and sourdough. I must say the yoghurt did lend a very nice flavour and while it doesn't ferment the flour per se it did give a very nice sourdough tang.
If you ever do get the chance then i'm sure many of us would be grateful. and even if not everyone has the means we are a creative bunch from what i've seen and we can all learn from your experience.
P.s. Kefir from grains ferments flour but I believe it has bacteria and yeast in it. All natural.
Abe, me too. I also buy sourdough bread from time to time, especially pumpernickel, imported from Europe. There is no way I would ever be able to bake something like that at home. No way!
I never used kefir made from kefir grains to ferment bread dough, I usually use it in combination with yeast, but a friend of mine does it all the time. She never uses anything else, just kefir and flour+salt and bakes an amazing sourdough bread from scratch.
I got the temperature controller from Amazon, so I will create a new flourless sourdough starter from scratch, and maybe even bake one 100% rye and one 100% white wheat bread loaf with it, just to show how it works. OK. Thanks for the idea, Abe!
best wishes,
m.
I'm with Gary. I have a temperature controller with a light bulb in a toaster oven or cooler.
I would love to learn how to make a flourless sourdough starter. We'll figure out how to maintain 32–33 °C.
OK alcophile, I got myself the temperature controller so that I can control the temperature of my heating pad with precision and will create a couple of flourless starters with its help
- the full strength sourdough starter at 32-33C (with wild yeast and LAB from a tablespoon of flour)
and
- lactic bacteria starter at 40-45C (with LAB from crushed malt)
I will record the process and get back with the results and a full write up. OK?
I'd love to see your results.
I'd love to see your results as well, Gary. I see you got your crushed malt already. Nice! 👍👍👍
And I saw the picture of your homemade proofing box. It seems that you all drill various holes in your coolers, I did not know that! LOL
Godspeed!
Yes, my cooler was cheap so I was ready to hack it as necessary to accomplish my goals.
I just started fermentation! My cheap vacuum pump combined with the jar sealer worked great.
I'm excited to see how this turns out.
Another affordable and great idea, this time - about creating anaerobic set up in a jar, Gary. You are so smart!!! If you ever have time, please show how you do it in detail, what happens in the cap area step by step.
My oven also has Proof setting, exactly 42C/108F, perfect for this kind of fermentation. It just never occurred to me to keep my baking stone in to store heat and to even out the temperature, to narrow the temperature fluctuation range.
Do you know how much your oven temperature fluctuates at that temperature level? It can be as large as 25-50F/10-30C fluctuation during baking, i.e. 350-400F, when set to 400F, but I never measured the Proof setting.
I'll take pictures of the sealing process. Really simple;
The pump was $7 on a flash sale.
My oven is interesting. The set temperature is the highest temperature. It swings about 20 degrees F. So when set for 120F it shoots up to 120, then drops to near 100 before turning on again.But this is the temperature of the air.
What matters is the average temperature of the thing you are proofing. I floated my bluetooth thermometer in a jar of water for a full day waiting for my rye to arrive. The temperature inside the jar varied from 110 to 112F.
So, the temperature inside the jar seems perfect.
OK Gary, understood. I got confused by that thing that sits on top of the jar. This must be your thermometer. I initially thought it had to do with the anaerobic seal.
So it does fluctuate 20F, even when the temperature is that low, hmmm. Water stores heat, that's ok, I understand. I was thinking about drying homemade fermented rye malt ("red malt") prior to milling it and thought about the temperature fluctuations in a thin layer of malt on a baking sheet.
By the way, the malt on the bottom of your anaerobic jar, after fermentation, once you separate your liquid lactic acid starter to store it refrigerated, IS fermented rye malt, "solod", about which there was a lot of talk here lately. It is used in German and Baltic bread baking and in Borodinsky bread.
You can slowly dry it in your oven @ 45-90C until dry and deeply red and then mill it and use in baking. You will have a bona fide red rye malt then.
Yes, the thing on top is my thermometer. I moved it next to the jar this morning get get an idea of the gradient in the oven. There is about 5 degrees F difference between the top of the jar and the bottom (outside in the oven).
I'd love to try drying and milling the "solod" but I don't own a mill. One day maybe I'll get into that. My oven has a drying mode that should work for that.
xx
Hi Joe,
No, anaerobic set up is not needed, not at all. You can either use 45C water in a thermos, just fill it to the brim and close its top, it will keep it warm as it ferments, or in an open mouthed flask on a stirring plate, in which liquid is incessantly stirred, exposed to air. A total opposite to anaerobic, a 100% aerobic set up!
The only thing anaerobic set up achieves is protection from mold growing on the surface of the liquid exposed to the air. Malted grain usually has plenty of mold (and yeast) spores in it, so for some people, such as rusbrot, who discovered the German sourwort technique and adapted it to his moldy malt, it might be an issue - to see a film growing on the surface. Such people have to use anaerobic setup.
German beer brewers never use anaerobic set up, they always use aerobic setup. If there is no fresh air as in a closed thermos or the liquid is constantly stirred, nothing will grow on its surface either.
Below are their instructions:
Hi Mariana,
Thank you for clarifying that no air needed to be vacuumed out.
But last night I realized I had a vacuum sealer and so applied it to a Ball mason jar. I am 24 hrs into the 48 hr process.
I was thinking that if I opened the sealed jar after 24 h to add sugar, I would have to re-seal it again.
I saw 2 others say they vacuum sealed and one did not add sugar.
But now I really didn't have to vacuum seal in the first place. So it is better to add the 1 t sugar today and tomorrow and then can leave it un-vacuumed? I have it in a water bath now with the temp control and it is holding at 41-42C very well.
So far I have really liked the way clas makes ww very soft and chewy so since flas seemed to be similar, I wanted to try it on 100% ww lean loaves and see how it is.
It is really such a bonus to get expert help like this. Yippee has given me so much guidance for clas, and now I am getting answers like yours right as I am in the middle of the process.
Thanks to all at TFL!
PS I had just ordered solod from Ukraine and then saw your remark that I can dry (45-90C) the sediment from flas and it will turn into red solod. The BT proofer just makes the temp limiit at 45C so I will give it a try. Only 2 days -amazing compared to 5 days.
Hi Joe,
well, from the testimonies you can see that there is an original recipe and a lot of freedom in following it or its derivatives.
- the original Berliner method is aerobic, but anaerobic works as well
- the original Berliner method has daily sugar addition, but not adding it works as well.
:)))
From my point of view, I would follow the original recipe, the one that professional brewmeisters developed and communicated after decades of testing it. It is super easy and does not require anything, can be done in a good old thermos, something found in every kitchen. If I liked it and everything went without a hitch, then so be it. Why change anything if it works?
If there are problems, such as mildew growth, then anaerobic setup would be a solution, just placing a layer of film (saran wrap, etc.) on the surface of the liquid is ok. Then not opening it and not adding any sugar as it ferments saves you some work . Or you can keep it completely open, but stir it from time to time, to imitate the stirring plate setup.
FLAS gives you a bit more freedom compared to CLAS because it is flourless, it is a pure liquid sourdough 'essence', so to speak, there are no predigested flours involved which affect the crumb when added along with CLAS. When combined with baker's yeast, it gives you amazing baking advantages of both sourdough and yeast baking. The reliability of yeast fermentation and the depth of flavor of the sourdough, easily controlled by the amounts of FLAS added and the length of fermentation.
Brod&Taylor proofer has the entire range of temperatures, you can raise it as high as you want, you can cook food in it! So yes, dry and darken your fermented rye malt, let it mature for a while in storage, then mill it into powder in a blender or coffee grinder and use in bread baking. There are tons of good recipes of bread with red rye malt in it, both wheat flour based and rye flour based breads and rolls. I have never tried solod from Ukraine, only from Baltic countries and from Belarus.
Godspeed!
m.
Hi Mariana,
My flas was fed the sugar (2x) and it smells nice but I see the white bubbles on top. Is it safe to strain and use? After rereading all the instructions I see I forgot the apple cider vinegar at the beginning and added the sugar at 24h and 36 h mark instead of 24 and 48h. The entire brew was for 48 hr and steady at 41.5C.
Hi Joe!
Yes, it is perfectly safe to use and to taste the liquid underneath it. Just remove the top layer with a spoon and clean the edges of the jar with a moistened paper napkin (tp or paper towel).
What you have is a very common picture of a surface of a spontaneously fermented rye malt drink and some kombucha teas and fermented vegetables.
It can have a layer of a common yeast foam (brewer's yeast, S.cerevisiae), as in rye beer brew.
Or bacterial and fungal films and bubbles
I have only seen yeast foams and colonies on mine (at lower temperatures, of course, @27-35C), the remaining pictures of bubbles and films on rye malt ferments are from my friends and acquaintances.
Next time, for the next batch of FLAS, sterilize your jar with boiling water and try to use anaerobic setup, to prevent this culture growth on the surface. I am not sure it will help 100%, but it might. It would be nice to know if it would make any difference.
Thank you ! I strained and pressed out the rye and it is drying at 120f, the max temp on the BT proofer I have. Do you think it will be more developed if I am able to get it through one or more higher temp levels as some recipes suggest? I wasn’t able to before but maybe I can try again with a water bath (with some kind of addition to raise the temp)in the crockpot -with rye sealed in a jar(?). Dry it again afterwards?
The liquid is in the refrig and I will feed with sugar later today, then try a bake . I am not a great baker but any improvement is really a motivator! Thanks again!
Congrats with your first successful FLAS, Joe!
You can dry it at 120F perfectly well. Rye malt will continue to ferment at that higher temperature for a while, while still moist, just like rye malt ferments in a factory. Lactic acid bacteria are still very active at that temperature, for example, in yougurt, and the drying process will simply take a bit longer.
Just make sure you are fluffing it up and waiting for it to be thoroughly dry and rather dark in color before you take it out. Do not take it out too early.
Good luck with baking! FLAS baking is really easy, since it relies on commercial yeast or soda/baking powder for leavening, so there is no way to fail. Essentially, FLAS is a yeasted bread improver, it can be used with any yeasted bread recipe (or any sourdough recipe with 0.5% dry yeast), the best of two worlds.
Best wishes,
m.