This recipe is based on Hamelman's 80% Rye with a Rye Flour Soaker from Bread (3rd Ed.). I followed the recipe as written with two exceptions. I used a mash at 125% hydration instead of a soaker at 100% hydration, and I used a 50:50 barley:rye flour in the mash instead of all rye flour. The recipe calls for Medium Rye but states that Whole Rye can be substituted. I used fresh milled Whole Rye.
The method calls for 8 minutes of mixing with a mixer noting that gluten development will be minimal and the dough will be sticky. Mixing by hand, I fought with the stickiness for a good 10 minutes before I thought to keep wetting my hands. I was able to get much better mixing after that although I did add a little bit more moisture to the dough (not much though). I mixed for another 6-8 minutes, but not sure I achieved nearly enough mixing. Didn't accomplish a whole lot in that first 10 minutes.
I was able to maintain 82 deg F for bulk and final proof, but I was a little low on dough temp after the mix. I extended bulk from 30 minutes to 45 minutes. The dough had risen roughly 50%. Not sure if that was enough or not. I shaped round being careful to not degas too much and placed in a well floured banneton. The method calls for 50-60 minutes, and I had a nice rise after 60 minutes. I thought I was starting to see pinholes so ended the final proof, but to be honest, I've only done a couple high rye loaves, so I might have ended early (pictured below). Does it look like I went long enough or could it have used another 10-15 minutes?
The recipe amount for the home version says it can be one large or two medium loaves. I halved the amount and made a single loaf, but I think next time I'll make one large loaf. It's pretty solid and has a very hard bottom crust. There was very little oven spring. Not sure if it's the mash or the questionable mixing that had the biggest impact.
The crumb is on the dense side and still a little moist after 21 hours. Still learning what constitutes a typical and good high rye bread versus a brick. I guess I'm leaning more towards a brick on this one. :-) However, it smells very good with definite sweet tones.
Any suggestions on what to eat with this bread? I usually just have my breads as toast in the morning or as grilled sandwiches.
Makes one large loaf or 2 medium loaves
Rye Sourdough
315g Whole or Medium Rye Flour
262g Water
32g Mature Culture
Combine ingredients and ferment for 12-16 hours at 70 deg F
Rye Soaker
180g Rye Flour (I used 50:50 barley:rye)
180g Boiling Water (I used a mash at 125% at 153 deg F for 6 hours and then 180 deg F for 2 hours)
Combined ingredients and cover. Let come to room temperature.
Final Dough
225g Rye Flour
180g Bread Flour
216g Water
16g Salt
14g IDY
1) Combine sourdough, soaker, and final dough ingredients and mix with spiral mixer for 8 minutes on 1st speed. DDT = 82 deg F.
2) Bulk ferment 30 minutes at 82 deg F
3) Shape round
4) Final proof for 50-60 minutes at 82 deg F
5) Bake at 470 deg F with steam for 15 minutes then 40-50 minutes at 430 deg F
6) Let cool then wrap in baker's linen for 24 hours to let crumb set
Mash before mix
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Interesting, With the IDY I thought it might puff up more (given pre-hydration and time). I wonder if turning the soaker (which resembles a yudane scald and can be used to gel he crumb and compensate for low gluten) into a mash (which might break the flour down more into sugars?) affected the difference.
You may be exactly right. I think I need to redo this one with the soaker instead of the mash. Would like to keep the barley though if I can make it work. I love the barley/rye blend. :-)
Isn't a mash a beer brewers term and it's basically a hot soaker. Can you explain what you did differently? How did you stray from the recipe?
Soakers can be hot or cold depending on length of time. A long soaker can be speeded up with a short scald but essentially the same thing. A mash in beer brewing terms is grains boiled. However when translated to a bread it's no different to a hot soaker.
Very nice bread Troy.
The issue is amylase enzymes wildly breaking starches down into sugar
https://byo.com/article/understanding-enzymes-homebrew-science/
A hot soaker will have this effect. I am aware of this whole process. That is why a scald, or hot soaker, is incorporated into bread recipes.
Firstly, my question was more to do with mash as that is a beer term. What does turned it into a mash mean in a bread recipe? Was it supposed to be a hot soaker and something else was done extra? Or did Troy mean it was supposed to be a cold soaker but he turned it into a scald?
Also, for amylase enzymes the scald should be 65°C and any higher won't have the same effect. Troy started off at 67°C (not far off) but then increased it.
Scalds at the right temperature should have a good affect on the rye.
I took the process from Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads, and you are spot on... A mash is the same term used in brewing/distilling to turn starches into sugars. According to Reinhart, you want to keep the mash above 150 deg F, which promotes alpha-amylase activity but denatures beta-amylase. "The beta-amylase enzymes are the ones that can reduce a dough to mush as they break off double glucose units, or maltose." The mash is held at 150 deg F for an extended period, and the main difference between a mash and a historic scald is not going above 165 deg F during the starch to sugar conversion as above 165 deg F, you also denature the alpha-amylase. My temperature increase late in the mash is to denature the alpha-amylase in the mash before adding it to the final dough.
But i'll leave you with The Rye Baker.
In depth about rye scalds.
I'll read more about it tomorrow.
Thank you for the reference Abe! In a nut shell, it sounds like semantics. Ginsberg calls it a scald. Reinhart a mash. Fundamentally the same thing. The difference between what I did and Hamelman's method... He calls for the use of boiling water, mixing, covering, and letting return to room temp. with the soaker being prepared at the same time as the sourdough portion of the bake. I started with water closer to 170 deg F so the mixed mash was close to 150 deg F and then keeping it at that temp for 6 hours followed by the 2 hours at 180 deg F. I removed the mash from heat about an hour before mixing so it had time to cool at room temp.
I thought you meant it called for a scald but you did a mash and I couldn't see any difference.
Was always under the impression it was interchangeable.
Whatever the case... very nice bake indeed! Don't forget that barley has been added to your mix. While it does have gluten it's really poor. I think the gel in rye is better for rising than barley.
Thank you Abe. Always appreciate the insight and help!
Crumb is great Troy, lovely bread.
Interesting to see that you used barley, I probably need a bag, but always thought of it as a poor flour (in my head), but you seem to be very comfortable with using barley flour.
What to eat it with? Here's what Hammelman says, "Breads of this nature should be sliced thinly, and they pair beautifully with cheeses, cured fish and meat, or simply butter and jam." Which I personally interpret as herring/salmon together with a nice cheese.
-Jon
Thank you Jon and appreciate the suggestions for pairings.
From a gluten standpoint, I agree wholeheartedly on the barley flour. I treat it as a "gluten free" flour when thinking about handling and structure. However, I love the flavor of the grain and add just a bit of it (3-5% of total flour) to many of my breads, especially to my version of a Country Sourdough. I'm guessing it hinders volume and spring a bit in those loaves, but not enough to be a concern for me. :-)
I'd be very happy with this bread. Looks moreish. Would be great with cream cheese and smoked salmon.
Thank you Gavin! Might have to run to the fish market today...
You were right! Cream cheese, smoked salmon, purple onion, and banana pepper rings. Very good.
Looks like a great bake Troy. You’ve put your own stamp on it with your use of the mash and the barley. It has really nice height and has spread so little considering the grains used, well done.
Benny
Thank you Benny, and hope the vacation has gone well so far! Great observation and you are spot on. It did not spread at all. Not a lot of spring, but definitely didn't spread either. I'm just used to the volume of a wheat based loaf and the lack of spring surprised me a bit. :-)
Very nice bread with a lovely crumb!
Thank you!