I'm having trouble getting 1st run flour to flow through the funnel into the entry/auger of my Retzel mil rite. The funnel is jury rigged, plastic, and thicker, I'm sure, than the dedicated metal hopper. Is that the simple answer? Need a thinner gauge so the flour can flow?
If you want to re-mill first pass flour, I recommend sifting and only re-milling the coarser fraction.
Edit: From the Mil-Rite manual: Do not regrind cereal or flour that has been previously milled.
Sift out the really coarse bits and run them through as suggested above. I have done it several times when I mistakenly set the stones to too coarse and it works fine. Many mills do not suggest remilling flour that has already been milled because it will not feed into the milling chamber the same way berries will.
OK, perfect, thanks guys. And Barry, thanks for your generosity of time otherwise, throughout this whole thing. You've been a ton of help.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62237/bolting-sifting-comparison-1-pass-vs-5-passes
I used to remill flour without sifting. The link above explains that is is best to sift the flour and only remill the larger bits in order tp prevent starch damage. Starch damage can reduce the quality of the dough to the point that it is not workable.
THIS LINK, also deals with starch damage.
Hey Dan, been away for a bit.
Thank you for the link. I recall reading it some time ago but I'd forgotten your analysis of the multiple passes. Your idea was really clever and I set myself up just like you indicated. I really liked the result. Re-reading it now, you've piqued my interest on the issue. Thanks for the cite, and your thread.
Paul
Didn't find much on this, though maybe it's been discussed. Sorry if so.
How long a continuous running do you guys do, before shutting off, letting cool, and starting up again? Any issue with serial milling like this? Do you let it cool completely?
What's your protocol if milling more than say .5 kilo?
I use a Komo mill. 500g is no problem what so ever. Never had an issue with overheating that I can remember. If heat is an issue, put your berries in the freezer first.
Another thing that may help.
The above is the method I commonly use as good practice.
With a Retsel Mil-RIte, I typically run 5 lb with no stops.
Alright, thanks guys, great stuff to go on.
Now, running it, this is pure whole grain, no coarse grist for re-milling, it will grind for awhile then stop grinding (but keep turning). I have to jamb a cooking wooden spoon handle as a "floor" of grain seems to have gotten the feed from the hopper stuck at a standstill. I can feel the "floor give way on jamming with the spoon, and the mill will begin again for a few minutes, then...stuck again.
I pulled the funnel and looking into the auger chamber, there's quite a bit of milled flour, with some seed. I can see now why it's feeding like this as I've been told by another (tremendously helpful as well) member, the auger just won't feed flour, as you guys are also saying.
Any diagnoses on why I'm getting flour behind the stones backed up into the auger area like this? I've got it set tight then backed off, I don't know," some but not too much, producing a fine flour. Am I grinding just too fine?
I often get a grain block when grinding medium or large-kerneled corn, but never wheat. Maybe your non-standard funnel is the cause.
I see cracked wheat in the milling chamber, but never flour. I doubt if your stones would be so tight as to cause that sort of backup.
Is your wheat sufficiently dry?
Hey Charbono, thanks. It's actually rye, and it's really dry (just my guess, without knowing better). I got the grain from our local coop, and they have it in bulk.
I'd just buy the hopper from Retzel, but I've heard/been told they are they are terrible at filling orders, customer service. So I've been loathe to deal with them.
I'm wondering if somehow I bought a dud. Got it for $175 shipped on e-bay. Turns, seems to work otherwise. As I mentioned to Barryvabeach, it has an eccentric rotation, but that is normal, as I understand it.
I wondered about the funnel too, but when I pull it and it's only grain in the mill entry, it still does this and when it finally clears, yeah, I'm seeing flour with few grains. Pretty bummed.
If there's minimal flour buildup on the stones, the grain is probably dry enough.
My Mil-Rite has a slightly eccentric stone movement.
Maybe the auger is mal-formed.
OK - thank you for everything, charbono.
Maybe we found the culprit?
What happens when you mill wheat?
I have no experience milling rye. My references indicate that the rye kernel is soft and absorbs moisture readily. There are other members with Mil-Rites who probably have rye experience.
Are your stones worn?
How do you adjust your stones? Are they glazing?
Are you sure that your Retsel was made in Idaho and not the Australian imitation?
OK, thanks. Those are impacted, though, whatever the cause - is that right?
Unfortunately I don't know how to tell if stones are glazed, but I did wonder the same thing. The adjustment is just the control knob - there's no click, it's just a continuous loosening and tighterning. I tightened to "finger tight" and backed off some, can't say how much. Not alot. Flour comes out fine to start - wouldn't that eliminate bad stones, or at least, glazed stones?
But then slows and I'm wondering if you nailed it, the flour is caking hard in the stone channels (don't know what they're called) and very little moves- then flour backs up into the rotor/auger area.
Good call on the wheat. I have some soft red I have very little use for. I'll clean the mill out completely, and try the wheat.
Thanks for all the diagnoses. I've learned a lot, actually.
Your stone setting is probably OK, but here's what I do for fine flour. First, tighten very firmly, to make sure there is no slack. Then, back well off, holding the base stone in place. Finally, come back in using just the finger tips, stopping when resistence is encountered. The stones will appear to touch, but they are pushed slightly open when the grain starts coming through. There should be three washers under the adjustment knob.
Both of your problems might be explained by high-moisture grain.
I am puzzled by the circle on your stones, just outside the channels.
Yes, you are having issues with your stones. Clean them with a brass brush, see if that fixes it. It is likely an issue with the berries, they may have been a bit moist. The way the Retzel, and many others work, is the auger feeds the berries into the milling chamber - the area between the two stones, as the berries are ground into flour, they exit the stones, leaving space for more berries to enter. If the stones get glazed, the grinding stops - instead, the flour fills all the cavities in the stones so they are smooth, as the stones turn, the flour does not get ground any finer, so it can't get to exit out of the stones. As a result, there is no more room for the auger to push berries into the milling chamber. If that happens with a machine with a universal motor, the motor starts to slow down, and eventually overheats and burns up. And yes, I know that to be true from experience. That is one reason many manufacturers recommend against re milling , it can shorten the life of the motor. BTW, I haven't seen your hopper, but doubt it is playing a role unless the hole is very small.
Thank you Barry, once again. I also wondered what that ring is that charbono mentioned (and charbono, thank you for your last post too). I'm inept. Am I "roughening up the stones" with the brush - and would the next step be to replace the stones?
I see it now, and understand. This is why I saw the flour backed up in the auger area and I hope I haven't damaged the unit. Have the feeling this might explain the low selling price. Is this an issue with worn stones to begin with - leading question I guess, because it seems the seller should have disclosed this but then I don't want to judge prematurely.
Wanted to thank you as well, charbono. I'll try the fix Barry suggests but if it doesn't work, I'll be sending it back,
Barry -
I've come across rice as a "deglazer," coarse, finer, then finer etc. How do you feel about that?
Secondly, presuming the rye moisture is the issue, how do we remedy this?
Thanks much!
Paul
Paul, yes, rice is a great deglazer, and rice flour is great for dusting bannetons, so it is a win win. As to the rye flour, or any other flour, air drying usually works, if you oven has a proof setting ( which is normally around 90 degrees ) or you can run fan only , no heat, that would work as well. When I would sprout flour, I would put it in a dehydrator at a low temp, and did not have a very great way to measure how dry it was, so I would just run a small amount in a mill, then check the stones to make sure the flour was not getting stuck to the stones.
If the rice doesn't work, a brush should. I rarely mill rye, but did a quick search and this can happen Rye stuck on Komo stones using rice to deglaze rye on stones
And no, I don't think you did any damage to the unit, so long as the stones still turn, all will be fine.
OK, thanks, Barry. I'm glad to have learned this lesson from you and charbono else I'd have been blaming them machine, not knowing any better.
So, did rice on coarse, though as it turns out not as coarse as I could have gone. The stones cleaned up beautifully - still the ring, but they just looked so much better. Went through 3 more passes, each one finer; as I approached true rice flour, I started to get some minor builldup on the stone channel. I experimented and went in finer, feeling that if things bound up - and they did -
-I could always start over. The trippy thing is, now, I think I made some serious rice paste!. Went on really coarse again, but still, this gunk:
-and it's definitely glazed on.
Thanks for the links, Barry. On one of them I saw someone recommended using a kitchen knife to scrape the trace gunk off until the stone just shows but I'm pretty freaked I could l truly screw up the stones for good - yes? So, I think I should just go with your original idea of a brass brush. Any brass brush in particular I should avoid?
Edit: Is the fact even the rice bound up on fine indicative of anything re the stones themselves?
Well, FWIW I grabbed some manual brushes, moderately stiff, and worked at it. This is what's left. Bit nervous to go to a stiff brass brush, unless that's not a problem. Not sure if these were here all along because the stones were not this clean overall until now and I hadn't disassembled them prior to first use (a mistake, I know). This stuff sure seems welded on, like, literally.
Thoughts?
Lol. Just for kicks I looked up for new stones on the Retzel site. I must have an older machine as the stones are of a newer type:
They said to call before ordering. Thought I'd try. "Sorry, the mailbox you called is full, and can take no new messages."
Does this mean delivery time on leaving a voice mail is out a few weeks? :)
What does that say about their customer service?
I dealt with them continually for weeks a few years back for a baker in another country. What you experienced, in my experience, is the norm.
The mill may be a great one, but their customer service is definitely not.
BUYER BE WARE!
A thought -
A commercial baker in New Orleans has a large stone mill. They use a pneumatic needle hammer to clean the stones. You may have to get more aggressive. your stones don't look too bad, IMO.
Think like a dental technician with tartar. Chipping, scraping, etc..
Maybe a 4" stainless steel wheel (brush) on an angle grinder???
Can you test on the back surface of the stones?
What do you think Barry (aka barryvabeach)?
Paul, yes, you have the older version, but AFAIK, the only difference is the layout of the grooves, not the composition of the stones, and I am not sure the change in layout makes much of a difference.
First, i would try any brass brush, ( Home Depot sells small ones in the paint department) and if that did not work , I would go at the gunked up stuff with an exacto knife with the pointed end, which I have used before on a glazed stone. The brass will definitely not damage the stones, and the exacto knife shouldn't either. You could also try a steel brush or try water, or a hand held steam cleaner, to soften what is stuck on it , just take your time. I would not try anything aggressive, like a needle hammer, until you exhausted all other options, including a dental pick.
About the only bad thing you could do it put huge divots in the stone as you tried to remove the glazing, it would still work as a mill, but it would be hard to get finer flour because the coarser grains would not be ground as fine if the stone, towards the outer edge, had lots of depressions. If you knocked out a few grains, that would not be a problem, it is supposed to have some texture all the way out to the outer edge.
Since the stones are glued to an aluminum backing, while Dan's idea to try the back is a good one, that doesn't work with the Retsel. In a worse case scenario, and I mean really bad, and you made some big divots , you could always ship the stone to me and I could true the face . On an older All Grain, I had to true the stone using a diamond hone, though it was the spinning stone, which is easier to do, and on the All Grain website he used to have a part saying that he used a diamond hone to true the stones before it left the factory. And if I couldn't get it true, I actually have 2 loose retsel stones that could likely be epoxied to the mounts for you mill, so we have some fall backs, and I would not get too worried about it.
While the stones don't look too bad, I would be happier if you got some of the gunk off. On the photo of the non spinning stone, at 1:30, 3:30. 8:30 , and 11 you have a build up, which will keep the stones from being brought close together. It would be great to knock them off, and again , a brush or an exacto should do it. Second, I would be happier if the flat area ( meaning the outer part where the grooves have stopped ) is 60% or more open - meaning no gunk on it . It is hard to estimate , but now it looks like about 40% of that area is clean, meaning you have a much smaller milling area than as it left the factory. If the only thing you have used so far is a plastic bristle brush, I am sure it will come out much better with brass, or stainless steel, or a regular steel brush, or exacto knife, which will be a little slower.
You have 4 mills. Which do you use for what?
charbono, actually now, I have one Retsel I use all time, and one Lee, or maybe two ,in the attic.
I started with a cheap Wonder mill off ebay, and over the years have trolled ebay , and gradually bought, tried, then sold, or gave away to family or friends, a number of different mills, each time trying to get a step up. Prior to the pandemic, it was pretty easy to find used mills for under $100 and I was curious to see how different models worked. My current favorite is the Retsel Mill Master that I picked up years ago at an unbelievable price off ebay. Before that, I was a big fan of the Lee, IMO, it makes a finer flour than any other i have used, though I know tend to believe that isn't very important, and any mill will grind flour that is fine enough for bread baking, which is why the Lee ( 1 or 2 ) is in the attic. I don't think there is a reason any sane person would need more than one mill ( unless they only had a Lee, since it is a universal motor, and most of the gray versions are extremely old, and liable to die, having a backup can make some sense if you find it cheap.
Please compare them.
Many thanks Barry. After I let loose with the brass brush it was much better but still "islands" of very smooth glazing. Thanks for the confidence to use the x-acto. Luckily we have many blades, including a kind of "chisel" blade, which peeled gunk off; as it dulled, I turned the knife over and used the other side. Sometimes, I used the point, but a bit more nervous to dig using that much.
Anyway, before I assemble the stones and auger back together, wondered what you think of the condition of the stones?
Paul, better than I had hoped. Try it now, I am sure you will be much happier. When you first turn it on, it will be a few seconds till flour starts to fall out of the stones ( first they need to fill the auger, then the grooves ) but once flour starts coming out, it should continue to come out at that rate until you are nearing the end of the berries. If it stops falling out while there is a lot in the hopper, take it apart and see if the stones have started to glaze again, I doubt it, but just to be on the safe side.
Barry, I am extremely pleased to report I just chewed through a couple pounds, and the stones never heated past cool room temp. Granted, this was to mill coarse meal for blending with my existing (finer, i mo) Baker's Authority pumpernickel as needed, but I have every confidence. And know what to do in the event we get some glazing in the future.
All due to you. Couldn't have done it with out you. And charbono, and Dan, thanks, guys, for your input, too. Right now I've got the rye in an open hotel pan and will think a bit on drying it out, but I wonder if I even need it. Plan to run some flour tomorrow as is, to see.
Big thanks!
Paul, thanks for posting back, it may give someone in a similar situation in the future to do a similar attack.
Charbono, sorry, I just spent 20 minutes typing up a comparison, and hit a key by mistake, and it all disappeared.
Barry, of course, thanks goes to you. I learned a good deal.
Not that I'm out of the woods yet; rye seems problematic still. I have dried it (200F x 30 minutes, additionally with alcophile's helpful suggestion of rice in a linen bag), and it is performing better but it will still start to jam up after a shortish (it seems to me) period of time. Tonight I thought I'd be clever and after I had run out the 2 cups or so of whole rye grain (it had started to slow), I cleaned/cleared the plates (not the auger area - which again had substantial milled flour backup) and dumped 1/2 c or so of rice. Worked nicely briefly until I saw little "noodles" of rice threads spinning out, and the motor literally spun out, stopped. Freaked, with some effort to pry them apart, I grabbed the (hot) plates and saw very substantial, rectangular islands of rice - which had glued together and literally seized the motor. With the x-acto chisel they easily came off, but yikes. I am leaving off tonight after what seems to me to be a small yield in rye flour.
Stumped. Geeked about milling: our local coop has hard red wheat (no indication of winter or spring, but quick caloric estimation tells me it's likely spring), spelt, emmer, einkorn, barley, buckwheat, and khorasan in whole berries, so excited to get going. Just hope it's fairly specific to rye (though I use a ton of rye, too).
One thing I only last night noticed is a small divot on the fixed plate. Don't think that has anything to do with a buildup, but wonder if somehow it might contribute.
I am loathe to try Retzel itself - these older plates aren't on their website and it's obvious, like Dan's experience, I'll likely never hear from them if querying on the availability of this older generation. Anyone have any suggestions on finding a pair?
Retsel's website says that grinding rice voids the warranty. Nevertheless, it also says: "If any additional cleaning of the stones should be required, please follow this simple procedure:
1.Remove all the remaining grain from the funnel, and the chamber of the mill.
2.Tighten the stones with the black adjustment knob until they barely touch. 3. Pour one to two dry cups of rice into your hopper and allow the machine to grind it up on a courser setting. The rice is hard and dry enough to scrape off any deposits, oils, contamination and glazing from your stones. Do not over tighten the machine while you are doing this. The rice is dry and hard and will generate to much heat if allowed to be ground for extended period of time. Let the stones cool off after this quick "cleaning" and you should be ready for another batch. Repeat if necessary. "
So, it sounds like you are tightening the stones too much.
I doubt if you need new stones, but Retsel indicates that they sell parts for their older configurations.
Wow, bingo. I made mochi, and common sense should have told me so. For some reason I thought just a light "touchup" making rice flour would do the trick - and it did, at least for the minute before it starting throwing rice noodles like crazy, then seizing up.
This poor mill.
Thanks Charbono.
Success. Will remember all your notes, and what I did - mostly dried the rye in the oven (200F x 30 min.), and keeping them with rice-sack per alcophile's great suggestion. That, and backed off just a touch from the fineness I was using before, and flawless. Flour feels great, and several pounds with only a small warmup - aided by Danny's (anyone hear the latest from him?) in keeping the berries cold.
Thanks for all the help!