Better Understanding a Grain of Wheat
A recent endeavor back into 100% home milled wheat reminded me how great (and nutritious) the bread taste. Those who bake this type of bread are keenly aware of the vast differences in each dough when compared to breads made with white flour.
In an effort to learn more about the 3 basic components (bran, germ, & endosperm) of wheat grain the following questions are asked.
- Does the bran contain gluten? In long autolyse of the bran only, it doesn’t incorporate like white flour, leading me to believe no gluten, not much gluten, or poor gluten.
- Does the sharp edges of the bran cut the gluten network. No not true, see Debra Wink’s reply below.
- Hows does the germ affect the gluten matrix, even assuming the bran was left out and only the endosperm and germ were included in the mix?
The authorities tell us the endosperm contain most of the berries starch and protein. But for those of us that bake with large percentages or 100% whole wheat, it is important to understand how the bran & endosperm affect the gluten network.
Here are a few question that Debra touched upon below come to mind. I would like to hear from the experiences of others.
- Since we learned that the bran is not tearing the gluten network, should we be free to machine need until the dough is well developed?
- Since the bran facilitates more active growth for the yeast & LAB, is the increased acids an ultimate detriment to the gluten?
- If the above is true, should we increase the percentage of prefermented flour in our levain to speed fermentation in an attempt to limit over acidification?
I have tried to pulverize the bran by remilling (koMo mill), using a coffee bean mill, and also via mortar & pestle. Neither method seemed to work. I have yet to try a high speed blender (Vita Mix). Does anyone have ideas how to accomplish this?
I asked Debra about bran, and it’s affect on gluten last March 2018. Below is our entire correspondence.
///begin correspondence///
Hi Debra, I have a question. I’ve been building some levains from whole grains (home ground) for flavor. I like using the whole grains in the Levain because I think the large jagged bits are softened during the Levain build. I have no idea how or even if it is possible to get an active starter to cycle from feed to recede for 12 hours using whole grains. 8 or 9 hours is max.
I think that bran and heavy bits that come from whole wheat weigh down the gluten matrix and cause it to crash early. The bran also causes larger than normal bubbles that are harder to suspend over time. Judging a starter’s cycle that uses bran and other large bits that come from home ground berries is not as easy as AP.
Is it possible that the recession is premature to the end of the yeast growth cycle?
If this is the case how do we judge the end of the yeast producing cycle?
What do you think?
QUESTION - have you ever visually verified (under microscope) the commonly accepted belief that the large jagged bits do in fact tear the gluten strands? I’d be very interested to know.
Thanks...
Danny
Oh! Can I share your reply with the gang?
Hi Dan,
Whole grains present a special set of challenges, and the answers to your questions are complex and multi-faceted. The best starting point is with your comments and question about bran. Yes, I have seen bran particles under a microscope. They are relatively flat and irregular in shape, but no, they aren't sharp or remotely like razor blades. Bran doesn't "cut" gluten strands the way people like to say. It acts as more of a physical barrier to gluten development as the particles get in the way of the proteins linking together. Like trying to hold hands through a wall. As a result, whole-wheat flours need more/longer kneading to get to the same development as with white, because the proteins have to first build the scaffolding to reach around. I think if bran were cutting gluten strands, whole-grain doughs would be destroyed by kneading, and that just isn't the case.
As gluten forms around and attaches to it, bran gets incorporated into the gluten matrix. Being well hydrated gives bran flexibility which surely helps. But a problem arises when the dough inflates, because gluten stretches and bran does not. This causes deformities in the expanding bubbles which create stress points. Imagine putting patches or pieces of tape on a partially inflated balloon, and then trying to blow it up the rest of the way. You won't be able to inflate it to its maximum capacity before it pops on one of those stress points. With whole wheat doughs, their leakiness will depend partly on how much gluten is available, how developed it is, how much bran is present, and the size and shape of the bran particles.
Most commercially-milled flours are a relatively fine grind of both bran and endosperm, and the bran is in fairly thin, flat shapes. Home-ground can be coarser or more chunky for one or both components. Coarser endosperm particles means some of the gluten proteins remain trapped inside the particles, unavailable to contribute to the gluten network. And coarser bran could mean more stress on that gluten network. If one bubble tears into the next, a larger bubble is the result, but if leakiness is developing all over, gas will be lost to the surrounding air and the bubbles will stop growing or the dough may even start collapsing.
The physical aspects of whole-grain aren't the only challenge to gluten structure in whole grain doughs. You also have the biochemical process of proteolytic enzymes punching holes in the gluten scaffolding. More enzyme is present in whole grain doughs, plus the means to accelerate its action -- acidity from LAB -- because LAB themselves are accelerated in whole grain. And LAB produce more acetic acid in whole grain. Acetic acid is inhibitory to yeast, shortening its growth cycle. So, multiple factors to contend with can make for a perfect storm if you let them get away from you. I doubt the early recession in your levain was premature to the yeast, but rather an indicator of a shortened growth cycle.
Whole grain moves faster, gets sour faster, and degrades faster. This is why many bakers shorten up levain fermentation time when using whole wheat. 4 hours is not uncommon. That gives the yeast time to get up to speed, but keeps acidity and enzyme activity in check. If you hope to stretch it to 12 hours, you'll probably need to make it very firm and lower the temperature to no higher than low 70's. If your mother is acidic, you may need to give it a few extra feeds in the day or two leading up to making the levain to reduce the acid and increase leavening power. 3 to 4 times per day at appropriate feed rates for the shorter fermentation times. You don't have to sacrifice sleep, just refresh every 4-8 hours during the waking hours, and change feed rates accordingly.
My best
Debra
And yes, you may share
///end correspondence///
Thanks Danny! Good stuff!
As I read the initial post, not as the author, but a participant it seems thorough machine mixing (slow speed and long) to fully develop the gluten (if this is possible), coupled with ~25-30% prefermented flour in the levain would be a good place to start experimentation. I am still under the impression that a long (2-3 hr) autolyse is productive to soften the large bits.
I am thinking out loud. Hopefully others will do the same.
My personal goals in this endeavor
Danny
Very educational post Danny. Being so new I have no experience to add to this knowledge, but I'm interested in reading all the information posted here. Good thread.
Benny
Dan I'm using 100% whole wheat (hard red or hard white) and whole rye in the sandwich loaves that I bake. Most of the rye is from my starter, 75g of rye in the 150g of starter that I use in the loaf. It goes into the mixer bowl as first ingredient and I then mill 25g of rye and 400g of wheat right on top of it. I use the paddle attachment to mix in the 275g of water and 30g of sorghum molasses along with 1/4 tsp of Ascorbic acid. Once all that is done the mixture 'fermentalyses', that is rests, for 45 minutes. After the rest I knead for 10 minutes using the hook on low speed. Toward the end of the kneading I pitch in 1/4 tsp of IDY (yeah it's cheating I know but I do give the starter a head start -pun intended). Once the first kneading is done I sprinkle 9g of pink Himalayan salt on the dough and rest it for 10 minutes before continuing the knead for another 4-5 minutes. The last thing into the dough is 20g of ghee. After it's incorporated I start the bulk. The point of this elaboration is that a total of 15 minutes or more of kneading isn't too much. I will add that the starter comes directly from the jar that's spent 5-6 days in the fridge after its last use and refreshment. I let it warm up to room temp before I start.
I realize your objective may be an artisanal loaf and mine is the far less spectacular sandwich loaf. But with the times I'm using for kneading and a 3-4 hour bulk I don't experience a gluten breakdown. In fact there's been a time or two when the bread rose so much from a cold start 350f oven that it 'locked' the lid on the pan. I don't know how much of this will be useful to you but there it is.
Do you have images of the large loaves and crumb shots? I’d like to take a look.
Is there a reason to use ghee instead of straight butter? I use clarified butter, but only in high heat applications. It seems to me that ghee/clarified butter is not as tasty as butter with the mild solids.
If memory serves me well, Peter Reinhardt also adds yeast to his SD.
Since the bran cutting gluten thing has been dealt with, long and slow machine mixing has become a major consideration. I hope those that are very knowledgeable about the components of whole grain and its affect on gluten will share their knowledge.
Based on the nutritional data labels on Kretschmer toasted wheat germ, there's a lot of proteins in them thar wheat germs. But... I dunno if they are good gluten-making proteins, ala balanced between glutenin and gliadin.
Based on what I read from Wheat Montana, and what my informal experts on home-milled grain and bread baking tell me (ie friends and acquaintances), hard white spring wheat is _the_ bread wheat if you want to keep all the bran.
Yes, _red_ wheat is used for "bread flour" by the big name commercial mills, but they totally get rid of the bran from the bread flour. If yer gonna keep the bran, at least this informal network says: Ya want the white bran, not the red bran.
I have experimented with a little bit of hard red spring wheat in mostly hard white spring wheat loaves. 25% red to 75% white. So I know what you mean about the flavor of red.
And, I have not baked two loaves side by side, keeping everything the same, except for one loaf being 100% red whole wheat, and the other 100% white whole wheat.
Now my informal comparisons, again, not side by side, tell me that 100% white whole wheat loaves give a better crumb and rise than even the 75% white/25% red.
You did such an excellent job on those two loaves in this post:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61367/whole-grain-sourdough-match-made-heaven
that I don't see any room for improvement. But maybe only if you swap out some of the red whole wheat for white spring whole wheat. Maybe 75% red, 25% white. That would still keep the majority red tasting, but may add enough "white bran" to give you some of what you're looking for in the crumb.
Dave, I may have to give HWW a try. I keep some on hand, but I always take out of the HRW pail instead! I like the strong flavor.
Do you have a link discussing HWW bran vs HRW? Would like to read up some.
I attribute the success of the loaves in your link is due to NOT over fermenting. Try terminating the BF before you think it is done.
Very brief description of hard red spring vs hard white spring
http://www.wheatmontana.com/faqs.php
Another similar view from a distributor, scroll down for PG versus BC:
http://bulknaturalfoods.com/articles/which-wheat-for-what/
Some tech details of the flour: Ash%, Falling number, Peak, Tolerance, Absorption, MTI (whatever those mean):
http://www.wheatmontana.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Prairie%20Gold%20Bulk%20Flour%2004.19.pdf
http://www.wheatmontana.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Bronze%20Chief%20Bulk%20Flour%2004.19.pdf
Prairie Gold is white, Bronze Chief is red. Both are hard, both are spring.
---
BTW, these are their wholesale prices, min order 4,000 lbs:
http://www.wheatmontana.com/sites/default/files/Wholesale%20Price%20Sept.%20Dec.%202019.pdf
Here are the wikipedia articles to understand those terms on the data sheets for the flour/dough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_Number
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farinograph
if i'm interpreting the number right: PG has more amylase activity (lower falling number).
I don't understand the other numbers yet. I mean, I can "see" them on the farinograph chart. But I don't know what the comparisons mean in real life.
The ghee is much easier to integrate into the dough than even softened butter. I make my own ghee by heating a pound of unsalted butter until all the water is driven out and the milk solids have precipitated and caramelized. I then filter it into a pint mason jar and keep it on the counter. If your clarification procedures are equivalent then you're making ghee and I'm making clarified butter. I haven't noticed any loss of flavor but my main focus was producing a shelf stable high heat cooking fat. Makes a killer grilled cheese sandwich, at least that's my cardiologist's opinion. I'm about to start on a new loaf and maybe I can get some shots if all my talking about it hasn't jinxed me.
Thanks JOG! Yes, I make clarified butter similar to you but not exactly. It is heated slowly and allowed to bubble for some time. This causes the milk solids to rise to the top and the water to sink below. The milk solids are skimmed off the top and then the clarified butter is poured off, leaving the water. Then the clarified butter is strained through a couple layers of cheese cloth. It can remain on the counter for days, but it our hot climate during the summer it is apt to mold given enough heat and enough time. I refrigerate in the summer and leave out in the winter.
I find that it lacks the flavor of whole butter. I think the main difference between ghee and clarified butter is that ghee is often browned for increased flavor. I am under the impression that ghee originated in the Indian culter and clarified butter from the french.
Please post images of you whole grain SD. And we curse any possible jinx that may have resulted from your previous post. LOL
Dan, thanks for your work on this. In a pm a few days ago, I told you that I experienced a problem from time to time where the dough, at the end of the BF, felt like it had pockets of weakness, like a window screen. Now you have Debra describing it in a different manner, but I think that is what I was referring to.
s gluten forms around and attaches to it, bran gets incorporated into the gluten matrix. Being well hydrated gives bran flexibility which surely helps. But a problem arises when the dough inflates, because gluten stretches and bran does not. This causes deformities in the expanding bubbles which create stress points. Imagine putting patches or pieces of tape on a partially inflated balloon, and then trying to blow it up the rest of the way. You won't be able to inflate it to its maximum capacity before it pops on one of those stress points.
You also have the biochemical process of proteolytic enzymes punching holes in the gluten scaffolding.
I hope you have read this post, for a discussion of red v. white - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6985/wheat-red-vs-white-spring-vs-winter though from what I have read, there is no substantive difference in bread making when using red v. white wheat, though there is a big difference in winter v. spring. Since the hard white is only winter, not spring, and the red is more commonly spring, we do see differences reported commonly. In the post I link to above, charboro says that the spring wheat has a higher protein level, though I think you said in a different post that winter had more protein.
I wish you luck in your search, though I don't know that I have much to offer. It really takes a number of samples to get much in the way of results, and trying to keep just one variable is difficult.
As to your questions, many have sifted out the larger bits, and reported higher volume of a loaf. I tried it a few times, but was not in favor for a few reasons, including that I switched to home milled thinking I wanted all of the berry, so why would I sift it out. Others reported that they saw improvement when sifting out the larger bits, then mixing the dough, and then adding the larger bits at the end. I have never tried that, but I think Debra's comment that the bran interferes with the gluten matrix suggests that adding at the end will limit that interference somewhat.
As to younger levian, I have turned to that, though due to having to go to work during the day, I can't actually use a young levian, and instead have used a levian that is kept at 54 degrees F, which makes it younger than one kept at 70 F, though it may bring other changes. I haven't done a direct comparison, but I think the younger levian gives more lift.
As to VWG, i have read that it does not give more volume, but instead, gives more fudge time on final proof. The writer suggested that if the ideal proofing time for a white loaf could be plus or minus 15 minutes and it would still be fine, that the plus or minus might only be 5 minutes for whole wheat. I can't recall the actual times, just the point that you have a very narrow window to get whole wheat into the oven to get a large loaf and great spring . His point was that VWG will give more structure to the loaf, and widen that window of time greatly.
Now that you are heading down the WW road, you have to check out this post - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33735/home-bread-fighting-gravity
Barry, I stand corrected, I believe. I posted a link that claimed winter wheat had more protein than summer. But it appears from the preponderance of available information that the opposite is true.
As this is written a HWW dough is being autolysed. I upped your formula to 20% prefermented flour ( from 14.3) in an attempt to speed fermentation. By reducing the fermentation time it is hoped that dough degradation through acidification will benefit the dough. My thought is that since whole grains have more flavor, that long fermentation may not be necessary.
The main focus of this bake is to thoroughly develop the gluten (slow speed & long time) during the initial mix.Michael’s latest post has inspired me to do so.
According to the test conducted in your link, there is very little difference between white and red. I have a bucket of white that has seen little use. HRW is my go to.
I hope that we can get input from a cereal chemist to shed light on the various components of a wheat berry. If anyone knows of one, please let me know and I’ll reach out via PM.
> As this is written a HWW dough...
Do you mean hard white wheat, or hard winter wheat?
BTW, I have never seen a "White Winter" wheat advertised on the web. I suppose it could be planted, but all white-grained wheat I have seen advertised is spring wheat. (planted in spring, harvested in fall.)
As to somewhere above where it was said "most hard red wheat is spring", that depends on which market is being discussed,
As far as US farmers and commercial millers go... most hard red wheat planted, and most hard red wheat going to commercial millers is hard-red-winter wheat (which will have most of the bran and germ removed) and go to commercial bakers, and into AP flour and bread flour.
Most red wheat going to home-millers is spring, as opposed to winter. (Didn't you say your normal red wheat is a spring wheat?) As explained in previous comment -- if a home miller want red wheat, and is going to keep all the bran, red-spring is desired over red-winter as being lighter/less-dense, eaiser to work with, bakes better.
Soft Red Wheat is also mostly winter wheat, though it can be spring wheat, and will also mostly go to commercial millers and to commercial bakeries for non-bread items. Soft red wheat also goes into AP flour to get a consistent protein level.
If you want to directly consult, look up wheatmontana.com, a major grower and miller, and give them a call. They do not sell directly to consumers, but they are closely in touch with the users of their products, including home-millers and home bakers.
Dave, HWW = Hard White Wheat.
I am excited with the results so far from Michael’s post about mixing and gluten development. I videotaped the mixing process and will report once the bake is complete and the bread is sliced. I ended up mixing with an Ankarsrum for 23 minutes on slow speed using the scraper and dough hook. The knead was gentle. Slow speed = 66 RPM, a total of approximately 1518 revolutions. Michael’s 35 minute mix blew my mind. 23 minutes had the dough looking very good and didn’t want to overdue it. Mixers knead very differently. It smoothed out early on and the dough was mixed until it just began to lose its sheen. The dough was cohesive and not very sticky to the touch. It was easily removed from the bowl in one piece. The windowpane was impressive (for WW).
The ability to share and receive information on this forum is second to none. Better than any book, any baking celebrity, and any other source I can think of... when like minded people pit their heads together, most anything is possible.
Barry,
That older post, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6985/wheat-red-vs-white-spring-vs-winter
compares white-spring wheat to red-winter wheat. But it did leave out one option: red-spring wheat. And Dan said somewhere he was using red-spring, not red-winter.
There are mainly three "mainstream" low-cost wheat options available to home-milling bread-bakers (not counting more expensive or less-common wheats such as Kamut, Emmer, Einkorn, etc.)
(All these are "hard", so I'm going to leave out that descriptor here on out.)
1. red winter.
2. red spring.
3. white spring.
---
Red Winter is what is mostly used for _commercial_ bread flour, but remember, -- they take out almost all of the bran for "bread flour", usually a 72% extraction rate. Therefore, the _endosperm_ of red winter is great for bread, but NOT the bran. Whole grain red winter wheat is also known as "Graham flour" when made with a coarser grind.
Home millers who want to use red winter wheat, including all the bran, either end up making dense 100% whole-grain loaves, or have to "dilute" it 50% with near bran-less commercial AP or bread flour.
--
Red Spring: While I don't know if Red Spring has _less_ bran (ie, perhaps a thinner layer, or a smaller percentage of total grain weight) than Red Winter, I do know from personal use, and from reading grower and commercial miller web sites that Red Spring's bran has notably _different characteristics_ than the bran of Red Winter.
== Both Home milled and commercial, _whole grain_ Red Spring makes lighter, better rising loaves than whole grain Red Winter, when comparing equal percentages of the loaf and equal methods/formulas ==
Logistically, a winter wheat, and it's planting/harvesting schedule, makes farmers more productive, and they can sell it for less. I have verified this: from the same grower, generic red winter is cheaper per pound than generic red spring or white spring. So... for _commercial millers_, if they are going to divert away the bran _anyway_, and just use the endosperm, the cheaper red winter works out to their advantage. (Heirloom, "boutique" and specialty varieties of whest will differ in price, but for other reasons.)
Red Winter endosperm also _usually_ has more protein than Red Spring endosperm, giving another reason for commercial millers to use it for the bread market. Also, for "preppers", who hermetically seal and store hundreds of pounds of it for emergencies, who value the extra nutrition, and don't mind denser loaves or will use it for cereals/cream-of-wheat/gruel, the extra protein is nice.
But to _home millers_ who want _red_ wheat, and are going to KEEP the bran, red SPRING wheat and it's "lighter and better baking bran" is what is desired, whether for 100% whole grain, or blended with commerxial branless AP/Bread flour.
---
White Spring Wheat: This is the big deal for home-millers who seek fluffy loaves with 100% or mostly whole-grain wheat. This is the message of the post http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6985/wheat-red-vs-white-spring-vs-winter At least if you look at the pic from the brochure, and compare the two 100% loaves.
White Spring wheat, when used in the whole-grain, has better bread baking characteristics than both Red Winter and Red Spring. The bran is just different, in terms of taste, baking characteristics such as density, and of course color.
Though of course, some, like Dan, just prefer the taste of red.
In other words, White Spring wheat is _easier_ to bake with than Red Spring. And even when blending with commercial AP or commercial bread flour, you can go with a _higher percentage_ of whole grain than you did with red wheat, before your family starts to complain about dense bread.
In the dough analysis given in my previous comment's PDF links to Wheat Montana, the Falling Number and Farinograph analysis is different too.
In my social circle, this is what the majority of us home-millers use for regular in-home bread baking, using 100% or near 100% home-milled whole grain Hard White Spring Wheat. You can get this in generic form, or the trademarked/proprietary "Prairie Gold" variety from Wheat Montana.
This "Whole White Wheat" (and as far as I know, white wheat is all spring, not winter) is also now appearing in grocery stores under the King Arthur, Trader Joe's, and Kroger brands. So those who don't home-mill can try it too.
Bon Appetit!
The regular Honeyville white wheat, which I use now, is stated to be winter. The organic white is not specified.
>The regular Honeyville white wheat, which I use now, is stated to be winter.
thank-you. I learned something. https://shop.honeyville.com/hard-white-wheat.html
Dan, you requested some shots of the loaf and crumb so here we go:
This loaf is hard red wheat 80% and rye 20%. Most of the rye is in the starter.
You have that bread nailed down! Bet you baked that one more than once. The square slices are beautiful.
Looks like you have quite a bite of experimentation determining the exact amount of dough weight necessary to fill the pullman.
Thanks for the compliment. "Quite a bit of experimentation", indeed. I can truthfully say that loaf was built 'brick by brick'.
And yeah, I do like square slices. Sandwich meats and cheese slices fit perfectly and with only two in the household a 9" loaf seems to work best. If I want a domed loaf I bump the recipe up to 600g of wheat and rye and boost the other ingredients by an equal percentage.
This particular loaf is made with Augason Farms hard red wheat. The basic recipe works equally well with Wheat Montana's Prairie Gold or Augason Farms hard white.
Thanks for all the information from Debra Wink and all the information that it provoked.
JOG, you might want to post your formula and process in a separate post. Others, including myself would be interested in reaping the rewards of your trials.
Truly great looking slices...
Danny
I just bought a MockMill 100 a few weeks ago and it's been fun to start using it!
I bought a big sack of spelt berries from Grow NYC Grain and am now trying to decide what to buy for whole wheat. My current plan is to keep on buying KA for my bread flour and only mill my whole grains. I am trying to pick between the below for my whole wheat and would love your thoughts! Should I also start milling at white bread flour or is using KA fine?
Wheat - Frederick - Soft White Winter
Wheat - Heritage - Red Fife
Wheat - Warthog/Glenn Blend - Hard Red Winter (this was recommended to me by the nice farm stand folks)
I read the chain above, but the product list on offer to me didn't include and spring reds or hard white flours. There was one hard red spring, but I would need to buy #50 and I think that's overkill.
idaveindy, I think you and I must be using different terms. My understanding was that there is no spring white hard wheat. I buy my wheat in bulk from a organic food depot locally, and the only choice for hard white is winter . Not only is that the way it is listed, when it comes in bags from Central Milling, it is labelled hard winter white wheat. This link doesn't answer the question, since it lists 6 varieties, http://kswheat.com/news/2014/12/02/which-wheat-for-what It describes hard white, but does not classify it by season. This page says that hard white is a winter wheat http://ieassa.org/en/wheat-varieties-hard-or-soft-red-or-white-winter-or-spring/ Hard winter wheat
is planted in the fall, mainly in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, and other prairie state So at least according to that site, the time it is planted is what gives it the name, not when it is harvested.
I have the option, at the place i shop, to get hard red winter or hard red spring. In white, I can get soft winter white or hard winter white.
Of course, there may be other options that not available to home millers. As to whether hard white is winter or spring, it may be like everything else in baking - the same thing might be called a starter, sourdough , wild yeast , a levian, a mother, or some other name. The only reason i track it is if I am making something, whether the kernel is red or white should not impact how it bakes, but whether it is spring or winter may.
barry, what we have here is a situation formally called "local bias", and it applies to both of us.
You've been buying white winter wheat all along , not knowing there exists white spring wheat, because your suppliers don't sell it.
i've been buying correctly-labeled white spring wheat (both generic, and Prairie Gold from www.wheatmontana.com ) for 10 - 12 years, along with occasional red winter, and red spring. . And JUST TODAY ( thanks to charbono above, who gave a name I could google) I learned there is such a thing as white winter wheat.
My suppliers don't sell white winter wheat, so I've been "locally biased" too, but in the opposite direction as you.
We are _both_ using the correct definition of winter wheat and spring wheat. My definition is the same as your definition.
We _both_ learned something today. cool.
Here are links to illustrate:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/2-Pack-Wheat-Montana-Prairie-Gold-Flour-5-Lbs/895448128 Scroll down and read the manufacturer's description.
you might also find it at amazon, and can zoom the picture of front and back to read the small print.
Also, direct from grower: http://www.wheatmontana.com/faqs.php just read down the page. They have Bronze Chief, which is hard red spring... and Prairie Gold, which is hard white spring.
Central Milling of Utah has a hard white spring wheat: https://centralmilling.com/product/whole-hard-white-wheat/ I have not tried it.
Or, If you are ever at a Walmart, go to the flour aisle, and look for a gold plastic bag. and if they carry it, that will be Prairie Gold flour from Wheat Montana, and it will say white spring wheat on the bag.
---
so we have FOUR basic categories of generic hard wheats: red winter, red spring, white winter, white spring. Not counting durum, emmer, einkorn, spelt, Kamut, etc., and other specialties. (And among "soft wheats" there are both red and white, too.) There are hundreds of _varieties_, but those are the major categories.
I have personally, and frequently, baked with hard red winter, hard red spring, and hard white spring.
Even from just those three, I have experienced difference between red and white, and between winter and spring.
I could tell the baking difference between red winter and red spring.... I prefer red spring over red winter for bread.
I could tell the baking difference between red spring and white spring... I prefer white spring over red spring for bread.
So yes, both color (red/white) as well as winter-vs-spring affects baking quality, even as much as the specific variety.
I'm starting to lose my love affair with Kamut, so when I get low on it, I may look into hard white winter.
so thank-you to you and charbono!
Shame on you, you are now making life even more difficult. When someone says here is the recipe, I used to have to be concerned with duplicating the temperature, time, mixing development, etc, but at least if the recipe said WWW, i "knew" it was winter , not spring. Just teasing, but the reason I was focused on the season, was i understood that red v. white had a different taste, but no real difference in performance in baking, and instead the big difference was whether it was hard or soft, and the season. When I use a recipe and switch from winter to spring, the dough definitely feels different. Now I just need to see if I can find 25 pound bags of spring hard white at a decent price. I checked Walmart, and it is $2 a pound before shipping , so I am still looking.
Barry, see if you can find some markets in your area that are run by or cater to Seven Day Adventist or Mennonite customers. They will often have the wheats you're looking for and a quick trip to them is cheaper than shipping in most cases. You might also try the Country Life website- https://www.clnf.org/. They're friendly folks and I've ordered several different grains from them without disappointment in terms of quality, price and shipping costs.
Thanks, I have looked for the Seventh Day stores before, and there are none near me. The Country Life website had some great pricing - though to add to the confusion, they list Wheat Berries Hard White ( no season ), Organic Hard White Spring Wheat - Prairie Gold , and Prairie Gold White Hard wheat - it doesn't list a season, but the photo shows that it is Spring. I just put in an order at my local place, but my next order will be from Country Life, even though shipping is still pretty expensive, it works out to about a $1 a pound for the non organic Prairie Gold Spring White Hard wheat, which is fine for me