I have posted about how to make very soft, very fluffy, yet still bouncy sandwich breads with lots of flavor(see here). The key isn't any gimmick or special ingredient, it's intensive kneading, a full long bulk rise, and proper shaping. I have posted the windowpane picture in the earlier post, but still got some questions about it. Here I will try to describle how the dough would progress during intensive kneading:
1. Dough starts to come together, but if you pull a piece, the dough would easily tear, won't form windowpane.
2. Keep kneading, the windowpane gradually starts to form, but it's thick, and won't extend very far. If you poke and get a hole, the edge is rough.
3. keep kneading, the windowpane becomes very extensible. The windowpane is thin but very very tough to break. If you poke a hole (I actually have to use my nail), the edge is smooth.
4. Keep kneading, the windowpane becomes even thinner, more transparent, but it becomes more delicate, easier to poke holes. The edge of the hole is still smooth.
5. Keep kneading, the dough starts to break down into a puddle of mud.
Stage 3 is the "golden point" for creating sandwiches with the best texture, and highest volume. 4 is a little over, your bread will still be high and nice, bu the texture would be a bit rough. Of course it will take a few trail and error to get to that point reliably. In addition, if you are making a sourdough version like I do here, the bulk rise would take a lot longer than the dry yeast version. During this time, the dough is still getting stronger, which means, we need to knead the dough a tiny bit less than stage 3. This time I stopped kneading probably 30secs before it reaches stage 3, and the bread I got is the softest, most shreddable, bounciest I have ever gotten.
Sourdough Incredibly soft white bread
Note: 19% of the flour is in levain
Note: total flour is 250g, fit my Chinese small-ish pullman pan. For 8X4 US loaf tin, I suggest to use about 270g of total flour. For KAF 13X4X4 pullman pan, I would suggest using about 430g of total flour.
- levain
starter (100%), 13g
milk, 22g
bread flour, 41g
1. Mix and let fermentation at room temp (73F) for 12 hours.
- final dough
bread flour, 203g (I used half KAF bread flour and half KAF AP flour for a balance of chewiness and volume)
sugar, 25g
butter, 25g, softened
egg whites, 60g
salt, 3g
milk, 102g
1. mix until stage 3 of windowpane (-30sec:P)
2. rise at room temp for 2 hours, punch down, put in fridge overnight.
3. takeout, divide, round, rest for 1 hour. shape as instructed here.
4. rise at room temp for about 6 hours. For my pullman pan, it should be about 80% full; for US 8x4inch pan, it should be about one inch above the edge. The dough would have tripled by then, if it can't, your kneading is not enough or over.
5. bake at 350F for 45min. brush with butter when warm.
Crumb shots from different parts of the bread, all very velvety soft, with no pores.
So soft that it's hard to cut, much easier to tear off pieces
Amazingly soft and flavorful
Sending this to Yeastspotting.
- txfarmer's Blog
- Log in or register to post comments
Beautiful, as always txsfarmer! Is the sugar more for flavouring than it is food for the yeast? And why only egg whites? You explained the different stages of gluten development very clearly. Great post. :)
Best wishes,
Syd
1) sugar is for both flavor and food for yeast. it also helps with the softness and lightness.
2) protein in egg whites helps with the volume, which leads to lightness. Without the yolks, the flavor is less eggy, the color is less yellow, the taste is "cleaner". It's just what this particular formula tries to do, you can get a equally soft and light bread with whole eggs too, the flavor and color will be a bit different, that's all.
Can't, and will not be better than this, Txfarmer! However,doesn't that oxidize the dough too much, that wheaty flavor present in the carotinoids will disappear? I guess Lactic acid produced through long fermentation makes up for the difference.
You've just hammered the final nail into the coffin of Wonder bread, Txfarmer! No excuses now!
Yes, intenstive kneading does oxidize the dough and sacrafice some wheaty flavor. However, this type of bread is usually (lightly) enriched, 10% butter and sugar in this particular case, along with the egg whites. Most of the flavor comes from these add-ins anyway, the long fermentation and the usage of sourdough does add another slightly tangy dimention to it, which is why I prefer SD version to the more common dry yeast version.
I have baked using your method several times now with wonderful results. I read about intensive kneading's effects on dough but wasn't concerned due to what you have stated above but I decided to experiment with your SD 100% WW Sandwich Loaf with Bulgar just to see what would happen. In my opinion (and my daughter's opinion) your loaves are just too good for someone not to bake due to being afraid of intensive kneading.
My experiment was to use S&Fs instead of the intensive kneading method and see what I got as a result. I followed your formula with a couple of exceptions. I added the bulgar after the autolyse and moved right into the 2 hour bulk ferment with S&F's every 30 min. for the first hour and then 45 min. for the second hour.
The dough got strong very quickly which surprised me. I had planned on doing more S&F's but stopped after just 3. When the 2 hours were up I put the dough into the refrigerator overnight and this morning I baked it after shaping and proofing.
Results: It was still shreddably soft and my daughter's comment was, "I think this is my NEW all time favorite loaf mom." The texture was just like your other formulas using the intensive kneading method!
So if people are concerned about oxidizing their dough they can still get the same results via S&Fs though it is a bit more work....
Thanks for all of your wonderful formulas!
Hi Janet! This is an old thread with an old comment. Forgive me. Do you know how many S&F's approximately? I was using a recipe recently that recommended 4-5 rotations every 30 mins for 3 hours or until soft and billowy.
Also, do you have a link to his SD 100% WW Sandwich Loaf with Bulgar?
Hi Janet! This is an old thread with an old comment. Forgive me. Do you know how many S&F's approximately? I was using a recipe recently that recommended 4-5 rotations every 30 mins for 3 hours or until soft and billowy.
Also, do you have a link to his SD 100% WW Sandwich Loaf with Bulgar?
Hi Janet,
May I know what is the couple exceptions you mean? Is it you exclude some of the ingredients? If yes May I know what is the ingredients. Thanks
.
Oh ye of little faith, the answer lies within your own hands!
Thank you Tx, beautiful photos! You are the expert here! It is so simple ...like the best of solutions.
Thanks mini! Now I just wish my 100% SD rye would turn out half as good as yours. I am practicing constantly :)
Thank you, Mini, for referring me to this entry. I will take this advice to heart and knuckles.
Txfarmer, that elongated crumb is spectacular! I can feel it in my mouth...
The explanation is very clear. Thanks!
Thanks! This type of bread is very different from the soudough lean hearth breads we are used to around here, I love them both!
Gorgeous! You make the most beautiful posts and breads!
Thanks for the great post!
Nick
Thanks for your kind words!
Clear, and beautifully covered with your photos.
Ron
Hey, glad you dropped by! I baked those sourdough crackers following your recipe, they were delicious! Gotta post them soon, thanks!
I am glad you tried them - great way to use the "discards".
I come by often, read much, say little (hard to match what you've said so well ;-)
Ron
Thank you for taking the time to spell out how the dough changes during the intensive kneading process. You always do such a great job at adding words to the process which helps me immensely when I am up to my elbows in dough and not sure how to proceed. You have created a clear 'path' to a finished product!
Thanks too for yet another one of your 'shreddably' soft sourdoughs formulas. I thank you and my 17 year old daughter thanks you. :-)
Best Wishes,
Janet
Thanks for the kind words, I am very happy that you find the posts helpful!
Beautiful Bread! I am practically drooling all over my laptop.
Can I make the bread without the egg-whites? My son is allergic to eggs. So I would like to avoid using them.
Thanks for the recipe and wonderful pics.
Warm Regards
Anjali
1. Protein in egg white helps this bread to be extra tall and light. You can replace it with equal amount of milk, but expect the bread to be shorter.
2. As I wrote in the previous post here:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20669/sourdough-pan-de-mie-how-make-quotshreddablyquot-soft-bread , it takes a lot of practice to knead a dough to perfection by hand, especially when the dough is wet and soft like this one. While I often knead with my KA mixer, I started out hand knead such doughs 2 years ago, and still often do so. With that much practice, I can knead it to stage 3 in 30 to 40min, but I have seen people knead for hours yet sill don't get to that stage. So...it's really hard to give you a time frame for hand kneading. My best advice is: do NOT add flour, try watch this video(http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough), and keep practicing.
Good Luck!
30 to 40 minutes is a long time, and I'll be the first to admit I've never done it for more than 15 minutes or so.
I think it would be a great exercise to see if I could over-knead by hand and see if I can recognize the stages you explained above. I really would like to experience what really happens at the point of over-kneading. Thanks for showing your breads!
Unless you posses superman arm strength and speed, it's nearly impossible to overknead a dough by hand. What's more likely is: you take too long to knead, the dough starts to fermentate (more common with a dry yeast dough which rises faster) before reaching stage 3, which makes the kneading harder. If you do knead by hand, I suggest to autolyse longer, and a smaller dough.
This morning, I made up a lean dough with 350 grams of flour and 68% hydration. Then I got out a timer and set out to knead away. I kneaded for five minutes, then stopped, scraped off the dough from my hands, scraped off the counter, and then pulled a windowpane. I didn't use any bench flour.
You were spot on about 30 minutes being needed to get to your stage three. The windowpane was never as uniform as your photos — there were always small streaks in it, but I did get that nice, clean finger-punch hole as you show in stage three. It never not any thinner as you describe for stage four. In fact my notes said, "35 not much change." and "40 not much change." It was at 50 minutes that I wrote, "Starting to tear."
I didn't bother to put any yeast in the dough until the 30 minute mark. The dough seemed to be getting drier at later stages, so I would wet my hands before beginning each five minute phase after 35 mins.
It was a nice experiment for me and I liked how much leeway there was in the character of the dough after 30 minutes or so.
I autolysed for 30 minutes before starting to knead.
hi. I try to adjust the quantities for the size of my pan (I want to use 290g flour), and I have this problem: you said hydration is 65%, but it just doesn't add up. flour is 250g in your recipe, and milk is 130g (6g from starter + 22g + 103g). The egg whites and butter count to the overall hydration? please, help me, because I started the recipe, I have everything "mis en place" and I don't know how to do it right. thank you. codruta
Hi codruta,
I've multiplied everything up from txfarmer's original recipe so it all balances for 290g total flour. See below:
Material
Recipe [grams]
1. Levain
Starter [100%]
15
Flour
48
Milk
26
TOTAL
89
2. Final Dough
Levain [from above]
89
Flour
236
Sugar
29
Butter
29
Egg White
70
Salt
3.5
Milk
119
TOTAL
575.5
Best wishes
Andy
andy, thank you so much for yor instant response. But not the math is my problem. :)), but the hydration in this recipe. I just don't get it why it says 65%. in the original recipe milk is 130g, flour is 250g, that give a 52% hydration. I wonder if the water in the egg whites counts, or is a spelling error in the recipe. thank you, again.
Hi codruta,
egg white will be about 90% water, the other 10% being largely albumen based protein.
Butter is 16 - 20% water.
Hope that helps you work it through
Thanks
Andy
I decided to go with the recipe as it is, nevermind about hydration. the dough is rising at room temperature, as i write. it's smooth, elastic, and it looks promising. codruta
The 65% hydration was indeed a cut & paste error from a previous recipe, I have corrected in the orginal post.Sorry about the confusion and thanks for pointing it out. However, the recipe should work as is without adjusting any liquid amount. Hope your loaf turns out well!
Andy's spot on the 73%-ish hydration counting egg whites and butter, that's how the dough felt like during handling.
I'm sure txfarmer has published a balanced recipe here, codruta. I hope to see you post on the final bread you make.
Just out of interest, I estimate hydration to be calculated as follows, based on the numbers I provided in the post just above:
Milk @ 92% moisture gives 133g
Butter @ 16% moisture gives 17g
Egg white @ 90% moisture gives 63g
Total moisture is therefore 213g
As a percentage of the total flour @ 291.5g, that works out at 73%.
I suspect txfarmer has used different means to calculate hydration, but this would be my expectations as to the amount of water in the formula. Remember too that flour has a moisture content of 14%
I was reflecting on this earlier and thinking that a dough with around 70% hydration, therefore has around the same amount of water in it as it does nutritional flour [ie. with the water removed]. So, above that point is where we move into the concept which Calvel called "super-hydrated dough" [eg ciabatta, etc]
Interesting!
Best wishes
Andy
Thanks andy for being so helpful, the 65% was indeed an error. The dough did feel like about 73% with all the liquids.
it felt very wet indeed. i let the bulk 3 hours at room temperature, but it did not rise (my starter is good, i have and use it for 2 years, and it never failed me), any ideas why? The dough is now it's in the fridge. i'll let you know tomorrow how it will turn out. it better be good, cause i already bought the ham and cheese for sandwiches. :))
thanx for your support, codruta
I am in TX, my house temp is 25C, the dough would rise noticabally during the 2 hour bulk rise but far from double (maybe 30%?), but it should finish the bulk rise and double during the long retarding in fridge. Hope yours will turn out well tomorrow, if the dough does rise to its potential, the first thing I suspect would be under kneading.
Hi codruta,
just a thought that you will need a good quality bread flour to yield a loaf the sort showcased by txfarmer. Otherwise, it will not support this level of hydration and yield softness and high crown as shown.
BW
Andy
hello! This is how my bread turn out. I'm very pleased with the result, although the crumb is not perfectly even, but, in spite my fears, it did rise very very much. i divided the dough whithout weighting the pieces, because I didn't realise at the moment that is important. thank you again for your support.
and andy, about the flour i use: it is a pastry flour, there are no details on the package about proteins, gluten, ashes, etc. I can't find a good white bread flour, here where I live. 11,5 g proteins is maximum what i've found, i bought a bag today to see if there would be noticeable differences.
Looks great!
Pastry flour? It must be quite different from US pastry flour, which has even less gluten than cake flour. You will get much more height with a stronger flour.
So you should be codruta, that's a lovely loaf.
I tend to agree with everything txfarmer says about the pastry flour you have used. Bread flour at 11.5% would give more volume and crumb resilience.
I'm really glad it worked out
Andy
Hi all,
I was very excited to try this recipe, and tried to follow it carefully. The levain went OK. Then when putting together the dough, it was extremely sticky, way beyond any possible technique, too sticky to possibly handle. I confess to adding a bit more flour, so I could plop it into my Kitchen Aid Pro 2 mixer. Put it in with dough hook, set to speed 2. Mix, mix, mix, checking periodically to see if it's coming together. It never did, becoming "soup" before ever becoming any kind of dough, windowpane or not, at about 7 minutes in. Pressing on, I gave up after about 15 minutes of mixing. I checked really close to see if it was "about" to windowpane, and... nah.... tossed it.
Did I give up too soon? Measure wrong? Wrong kind of flour (it was bread flour but not KA). Levain was over-done so too much acid, destroying gluten strands? Any help would be most appreciated... I'd love to make some bread that looks anywhere close to those above!
Don't know about flout type or mis-measurement, but in my KA pro 600, it takes about 15min (+-5min) for it to reach full windowpane. At speed 3 or 4. Yes, it's against what the instruction says (speed 2 for kneading bread dough), but instructions leave room, and it assumes a much firmer/bigger dough. I have kneaded loaves like this at speed 3/4 for 2 years, and my machine is fine.
Unless you are using very fragile flour, otherwise a bread dough WILL go through the normal process: loose, more gluten so that you can stretch, maximu gluten for windowpane, overknead and disintegrate. I think you just have to believe in the process and observe each stage to really learn how the dough changes.
Thank you for your quick reply and for being so generous with your knowledge. I will keep at it!
Despite all my efforts to teach my family to love a rustic sourdough loaf, they still keep buying sandwich bread from the store, so I could say I have been forced to bake something like that for them... Luckily, I finally remembered this recipe of yours and decided to give it a go yesterday. This morning, I baked the first loaf. The kids haven't tasted it yet (as they are still asleep) but I took a few slices myself already, and I'm sure they'll enjoy what's waiting for them when they wake up :)
Hand kneading the dough is a lot of work, but I was very happy I did it (about 35 minutes) as I have never had such a beautiful gluten structure in my breads before. I guess it's worth taking the time to do the work properly.
Big thanks for the recipe and the kneading instructions!
Hi Jarkkolaine,
I saw your comment here and wanted to let you know that when I first started baking bread my kids would only eat the loaves I made that I added cinnamon and raisins to. I wanted variety so I did bake with a number of different flours and ingredients but in the beginning I always added cinnamon and raisins and that way they ate what I was making not knowing I was sneaking other things in.
The first lean loaf that I made without cinnamon and raisins was a loaf from Dan Leopard's The Handmade Loaf. It was the Barley Rye loaf. My son loved it toasted with butter and honey on it.....After that experience I began trying other lean loaves like Shiao Ping's Banana Pain au Levain and they liked that too.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is, don't give up! I continued to bake because I loved it and got hooked. I stopped buying bread at the store and gradually I have won them over. Most of my breads that I bake do not have cinnamon and raisins in them but that is still their favorite :-) It has been 2 years of baking for me now and when they taste something store bought they don't like it. For them it now has no flavor.
Just thought of something else. One of the things my family had a hard time with was the shape of the lean loaves I was making - boules and batards. They prefer the sandwich loaf shape!!!! Odd but true. My husband and my daughter like small rolls. So you might experiment with the shapes you are baking too.
Good Luck!
Janet
I had no idea that sourdough could be used to make bread like that. My kids complain about my crusty batards and now I have a new goal. Your breads (and photos) are beautiful. Thank you sharing your recipes and methods.
I just love this weird recipe. But it is not that weird if I think about it. It is almost like a "white" Brioche, (less sugar and butter than a brioche) without the egg yolks. The result is very satisfying. I multiplied the recipe 3x divide the dough up into 12x 122-123 gr/piece. Using the pullman mehod; 9 pieces I used for 3 loaves, only 1 third of the pan was filled. and the other 3 pices I cut in half before the scond roll and used the in my mini loaf tins.
Making this recipe I learned about the perfect window pane, what eggwhite does to a bread recipe, that my starter is perfect, and the pullman rolling method
The result was moist, light fluffy crumb. The crust golden amber, crisp and the flavour light sour. This Bread is just beautiful. It deseves a definate place right next to Pierre Nury’s Rustic Light Rye.
Thank you
Hi txfarmer. I found your Pan de Mie recipe while I was searching for a solution to soft homemade sandwich bread. I have been using Syd's White Sandwich Loaf recipe for a while now, but I have not been able to achieve the same results as Syd. Your information on intensive kneading was very helpful and I have definitely seem some improvement in texture. However, I'm still not getting what I want. I'm keen to try your recipe here, but I was hoping maybe you (or some other helpful and knowledgeable contributor) could help me adapt it to a yeasted dough. My wife doesn't eat much bread, so I don't bake as much as I would like. As a result, I dont' really have the volume of bread necessary to try to keep a sourdough starter alive. It would be great if there were a way to adapt most of the same methods of this recipe but include yeast. And preferably dry yeast, as I can't find fresh yeast in less than 1kg blocks, which again I struggle to use up in time due to low throughput of bread. I realise that I could just "add yeast", but I'm smart enough to know what I don't know, and I'm just not experienced enough yet to know how much to use, when to add, division between pre-ferment and main dough, etc. I love the flavour that Syd's poolish adds to the bread, and would love to implement that technique with this recipe. I still have a long way to go when it comes to getting my kneading and proving right, but a solid recipe should definitely help me achieve that. Many thanks whether you have the time to help or not. You in fact already have helped me a lot with your wealth of knowledge in your existing posts.
The most straightfoward way to adapt it to a yeasted version is to convert the starter/levain into same amount of flour and water and add that to the main dough(so the total ratio of everything remain the same), add 1% instant yeast, adjust bulk rise and 2nd rise according ot how the dough behaves (usually 1-2 hours for bulk and 1 hr for proofing).
If you prefer a poolish or other type of preferment, just follow that same preferment ratio, use the same baker's percentage for other ingredients as this dough, stick to the same kneading requirement.
Thanks for your reply tx.
I think one of the benefits of using a starter is the nice slow, controlled proofing you get with the natural yeasts. Even with 1% instant yeast, which is the ratio I usually go for, I find my bread will proof quickly (like the 1hr you mentioned). The quick proofing seems to wreck havoc with the structure of the dough, causing an uneven crumb, lots of air bubbles near the surface and lumps. I'm sure some of this will be able to be counteracted by better kneading with its better gluten network, but it would seem controlling the ferment would also be of benefit.
So my question is, do you think its better to reduce yeast or temperature to control fermentation? I've fermented in the fridge before, and haven't really been happy with the results, though this of course could have been my error as opposed to bad chemistry. It's usually cool here (Wellington, New Zealand) but we're having an unseasonably warm summer and we've just moved to a new apartment that is much warmer, so my ambient temp is way up. I will experiment with all of this myself of course, but any information you can provide from your wealth of experience on the way would be greatly appreciated.
My gluten-free friend was over yesterday and when he saw the pictures of your loaf above, he said he would happily suffer the consequences to eat such beautiful bread if I could replicate it!! I don't expect to get it quite as good as your's, but even getting close would make me extremely happy!
If your gluten-free friend is wanting to eat this bread, you may want to stick to the original starter-based long ferment version. At the very least, use very little dry yeast and allow a long ferment in a cool area. The long fermentation will make it easier for your friend to handle this bread.
Hi txfarmer,
I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I've converted your recipe into a yeasted version and updated the size to fit my pan, and have baked about 20-25 loaves so far. I've tweaked the ingredients to suit my own taste as well, but it is still fundamentally the same recipe. Though this is not my best effort, I thought I should post a few pictures.
I just wanted to thank you so much. Your tutorials on intensive kneading have absolutely revolutionized my bread baking. I cannot belive how good my homemade sandwich bread is now. It's been a 2-3 year journey, but I'm now officially happy. I must say, I don't believe I've ever achieved a windowpane as good as one of yours. This is probably a combination of poor technique and flour differentiation. We don't get KA in New Zealand, though I've had a Swiss baker tell me that NZ flour is very good quality overall and I buy from the same place as our local bakeries. Regardless, I'm continuing to attempt improvement.
I have one question (actually I have a million but I don't want to bother you with too many). I've been making my breads with a poolish, and 3 times I have also tried to ferment them overnight in the fridge. Though I haven't experienced much improvement in taste, I like the convenience of getting a lot of the work out of the way the day before so that I can just prove and bake and have a loaf ready for lunch. But I've noticed that the loaves I put in the fridge don't prove as much. I would say they have about 10% less volume than ones that didn't go in overnight. All three times, the fermenting times at room temp were different. I did an hour, 45 min and 30 min each before S&F and going into the fridge. The crumb does seem to be a bit softer, but of course it's more dense as there is less volume. Every time there were also little bubbles that appear just under the crust of the bread. Can you think of why this would be happening? I know you do a lot of overnight fermenting and I've never seen these bubbles on your loaves or seen you mention less volume. I researched a lot on Google and couldn't find much information or any consencus in the bit that was available.
Many thanks!
Micah
Thank you for this gorgeous recipe. I am trying it for the first time, the recipe almost as given, for myself, and a variation with garlic and herb butter filling as requested by some friends. I spread the filling on the round of dough before rolling it up and putting it in the pans. It is rising beautifully and the oven is preheating. I can't wait to see how it turns out - I'll be thrilled if it is half as lovely as yours looks!
I did a triple quantity of the bread, combining one quantity of sourdough with two of yeast - only because my friends felt they would prefer a yeast version, while I like sourdough, so I compromised! ;-)
Your instructions were fantastic, and the link to the video on kneading was extremely helpful, too. It took me 45 minutes of kneading as per the video to get to a stage 3 which was like Crider described in the post titled 'Experiment' i.e. not so smooth and thin as yours, but extensible and I poked a hole with smooth edges. I haven't tried that particular method of kneading before, but it wasn't too hard to at least approximate it, and it made handling the sticky dough much easier than I could have imagined possible.
Thank you again, I'll post again when I see how it has turned out - maybe even with a picture or two!
Jeni
Later:
I'm so, so proud of myself! The loaves turned out beautiful - soft, light as air and with a delicate, yet rich flavour!
Thank you so much for this wonderful recipe!
I made two small garlic and herb loaves for my friends and a single large loaf for me.
I would post the pictures but I can't work out how to do it!
Anyway, thanks again for the fabulous recipe, instructions and link to the kneading video!
Jeni
Hi. I don't know what went wrong... I did everything as said, but when it came to kneading, I found the dough was too runny and wet, more like batter than dough. It wasn't that wet, but it was too wet to handle. What am I doing wrong? I added flour but now I'm afraid that I added too much. And it took me about 2 hours to get to stage 3 by hand kneading. Am I doing something wrong here?
I just started my first sourdough starter and am getting all excited about baking my first SD loaf. I was showing my 8yo daughter pictures of breads and she kept saying "I don't like bread like that" until I got to this one. She says she will even eat the crust of this one.
But the importance on kneading does worry me. I'm a total novice and usually use my bread maker for kneading. Even though it's old and I suspect it often overkneads. You posted a video link in a comment on how to deal with wet dough, but the video is gone. Any other resources you can recommend that can help me?
Thanks!
Add, half the wet to start the mix off then slowly add the rest of the wet in stages as the dough develops during the knesding process
Dear friend. How do you think this recipe would work with some whole wheat flour? I mean, for example, 80% regular flour and 20% whole wheat. In which way this ratio wouldl impact in the fermentation process?
Thank you very much!
Abel Sierra, Spain.
Please refer to my blog index the beginning of the post. There are lots of similar 100% ww breads. If you only use <20% ww, expect less volume and similar crumb.
I got this to work on my 2nd try. I skipped the levain step though and made a mistake in my conversion for the first dough. And I still wasn't completely satisfied with the oven spring for the final one. But it is soft and fluffy and tastes delicious. My 8yo who has never really liked my homemade bread said this was the first bread she had ever liked on its own.
The only issue I had was that I had to hold my 40yo Kenwood Chef when I kneaded on 4 or it would have landed on the floor in no time. Oh and I also found shaping hard because the dough was so slack. Next time I'll roll it between 2 sheets of baking paper.
I've been looking for a good recipe to make soft sandwich bread for a while now and this looks amazing, thanks for sharing! I noticed this recipe calls for just milk, whereas this one calls for milk powder + water. Why was the recipe changed from powder and will the type of milk used drastically affect the final product (whole/1%/2%)?
Hi
The bread looks delicous! so I've been inspired to try this out.
I have mixed the levain per the instructions and it has formed a very firm/dry ball of dough - is this correct?
Just saw an older post where you confirm that the levain should be firm! so my question is answered. Loaf is in progress now, will report back with how it turned out.
wow wow ! Super! Thank you so much! I m so inspred by your post just reading it and i want to try soon! Thank you! God bless!
ive tried this recipe twice now with zero luck. I blame this fully on my lack of experience.
both share similar traits in there failed state.
Best at way I can explain is that when I finally get the window pane as pictured the dough is very much like silly putty in texture and it never rises.
I use my sour dough frequently for other things so I am fairly sure I have a good well kept starter But I just seem to miss on this and white bread is one of my favorite foods so I'm excited to get it right. I'm going to try to replace the starter with yeast and see how it goes. I have pictures of needed.
txFarmer,
Great formula!, I have started using this in my Bakery. We mix a 20 / 2-lb batch at a time. We also use a double hydration move when mixing. When I first made this in a larger batch, I had to scrap down the bowl and work this dough for over 25 minutes to get it to the correct development. Double hydration is key for the larger batch. Thanks for a great Formula!
Could you help me out? I'm having a hard time converting it to percentages. I think the starter and hydration with the egg whites are throwing me off.
has anyone tried this successfully with freshly ground whole wheat flour?
I have been around for awhile but I haven't had the chance to bake much in the past couple of years, due the limited space we are in at this moment (kitchen is Barby dool size!!). Just recently revived my SD and getting back to work with it. My major disappointment was to only be able to produce hard crust bread, which I am more than happy with since I am Italian and I do love my bread crusty! But my family enjoys a more soft bread especially for every day sandwiches. You bread is just what I was dreaming of, you are a genius and I can't thank you enough for all the work you put into your creations! The loaf came beautifully soft and with a slight tang, not overwhelming which I find a positive trait. I have made Shokupan (sp) or milk Asian bread in the past, and was very very impressed with the type of great the produces, but I felt I would have love it better if I could use my SD instead of yeast. My goal is to be able to use exclusivley SD for all of my baking, and your blog and recipes are what I was looking for.
thank you!
Vanessa
Hi, I'm not sure TXFarmer is even around, but perhaps another baker out there can help. I made this lovely loaf once, and it was a hit with the kids (of course), and now I am on a mission to make a larger loaf. This quote from the recipe has me confused: "total flour is 250g, fit my Chinese small-ish pullman pan. For 8X4 US loaf tin, I suggest to use about 270g of total flour. For KAF 13X4X4 pullman pan, I would suggest using about 430g of total flour." This seems to tell how to make a bigger loaf, but (here comes the potentially ignorant question) do I just calculate the other ingredients to allow for the increased flour? I've been baking 10+ years, so I feel silly about this, but insight is most appreciated!
Yes you can calculate based on percentages BUT I will say I made this loaf as a full sized pullman pan and basically doubled the recipe and it came out perfect :)
Absolutely perfect! I usually mill at home and go all whole grain sourdough BUT every now and then I just need to make a white bread loaf! Usually I only do half and half but I went all out this time :) I doubled your recipe for my full size US Pullman pan and I used 2 egg whites and one full egg to equal the proper amount... it was perfect!! Absolutely shreddable and absolutely delightful. Long, cold 18 hour ferment overnight, about a 5 hour final rise/proof and bake and just delightful!
I'm brand new to baking. I have a starter and I fed it and allowed it and allowed it to rise, reduced by half, then fed and allowed it to rise again. Everything looked great and appeared to be the same as any pictures I found for a healthy starter. I then attempted this recipe. I combined 13g of starter, 22g of Milk, and 41g flour. The mixture seemed very dry. 12 hours later, there has been basically no change to the levain. I'm assuming it is supposed to rise, but it as not. Any guess as to what I may be doing wrong?
Hello Jethreaux
Did you ever get a reply to your question? I was hoping to see an answer but didn't. I baked
Extremely soft sourdough sandwich bread - the most shreddble, soft, velvety ever
but it didn't come out soft and velvety at all and I was wondering what I did wrong.
Christel
Hello! I live in TX and the location of my fermentation for levain and bulk fermentation is 81 degrees ambient. I know this will change my fermentation time dramatically and I have no idea what to look for as far as readiness in a firm levain. About how long do you think this should that take?
Does anyone have a baker's formula for this recipe? I am so confused. If there were a formula there I think I could scale it up and down much more easily, but I'm having a hard time converting it into a percentage myself. Txfarmer, your bread is so beautiful. I just need some help getting started.
Here’s my quick take on the formula:
INGREDIENT
AMOUNT (g)
FLOUR TOTAL (g)
% WATER
WATER (g)
BAKER'S %
LEVAIN
Starter Flour
6.5
6.5
2.59
Water
6.5
100
6.50
2.59
Levain Flour
41
41
16.37
Whole Milk
22
88.3
19.43
8.78
DOUGH
Bread Flour
103
103
41.12
AP Flour
100
100
39.92
Sugar
25
9.98
Butter
25
17.9
4.48
9.98
Egg Whites
60
87.6
52.56
23.95
Whole Milk
102
88.3
90.07
40.72
Salt
3
1.20
Total Dough Weight
494
197.21
Total Flour
250.5
100.00
Total Water (Hydration)
173.03
69.07
Note: The “% Water” column shows what percentage of water is in that particular ingredient, and I use it to calculate how much that ingredient adds to the overall hydration of the dough.
Hope this helps!
Excellent bread. I'll admit, I tried this recipe hand kneading four times before I gave in and got a mixer with a dough hook. All worth it for this fluffy loaf!
Question: has anyone modified this recipe to add grains or seeds?
Hello! Thank you for the lovely recipe. Your pictures are no longer working. Are you able to re-upload a few?
Two questions if you have a moment:
-I want to add cheddar cheese and herbs. At what stage, would you say?
-Would adding powdered milk be useful? I have a large amount on hand at the moment.
This is delightful, and I am working on making this bread. I was working on my own take with some whey, skim milk powder and oil. I was doing it at 96% hydration and while kneading gave up and readjusted the flour to make the hydration 75%.
I often save the aquafaba from canned beans as it has been the most amazing new vegan ingredient and works like egg whites in every way. Stupid me forgot to defrost some, so this will be without the "egg" I Hope it works. Ill finish this version of bread and then keen to try this.
Has anyone else used aquafaba in brioche or even heard of it?
I used a rye and seed grain for my starter feed, 110g per 450g flour, except i added another 120 gm flour and some coconut flour.. so very experimental - Will let you know.
Haven't heard of aquafaba but always up to learn something new. Is aquafaba in every can of canned beans? When using canned or even soaked and boiled beans (black turtle beans in particular) I get a wonderful brioche texture to my wheat bread. Chopping up the beans just a little bit adds what I call a chocolate chip fleck to the crumb. Too fine, the beans turn the crumb dark. Depends on what is desired. Mature beans are good for their added protein, the juice from cooking them must also contain some amount of protein. Ok, looked it up. Don't forget to check why not to use Aquafaba and make up your own mind.
My mouth is watering just from reading txfarmer's post and your comments. It's a shame I can't see the pics in the original post. Is anybody able to see them?
Hello txfarmer and all members
I have baked the soft sourdough sandwich bread, that is supposed to be shreddble, soft and velvety.
I wouldn't say I failed as it is softer than any other sourdough bread I baked, but it isn't shreddble or velvety. I doubled the ingredients but apart from that I tried to follow the recipe. Because I have health issues, I let the mixer do the kneading for 10+ minutes but the dough just wouldn't come together and stayed very wet. So I added flour and some more. In the end I took it out and carried out kneading on the table. My table has a marble top, hoping it isn't too cold for kneading bread. I kneaded until I had the window pane stage (just). Pushing into the dough, the dent/hole would come back. The dough was elastic but I wouldn't call it soft and elastic. At the window pane stage I let it rise 6 hours as per instruction, shaped it and let it rise over night in my rising cupboard :) It trebbled in size and I baked it as per instructions,
I am pleased and disappointed at the same time. What should I have done, when the dough didn't come together?
bread
hello TxFarmer, I have a question about the ingredients. I don't want to use sugar because of it is not organic. Can I use honey (or something else)instead of sugar? If I can how many gram?
Thx for the reciepe.
hi , i really wanna try this recipe but wanna be sure i understand it
after 2 hours bulk at room temperature- it says punch down the dough and put into fridge.
does it mean i need to complete degass the dough after it rise at rt and before put it in the fridge? and if i really need to degass, so why let it rise in the first time?
please will be happy get an answer so i can make this
thanks in advance
Hi, I'm newbie in sourdough.
I just made shokupan loaf using SD starter, and first fermentation I performed S&F. But in here ,I read the method no S&F at all.
Does it make any difference doing S&F and without S&F?
And lastly, does the dough really need to be overnight fermented or can it be shorten? If yes, how many hours?
Thank you so much for any kind assist.
I've made the Extremely Soft Sandwich Bread twice. I burned the top the first time, tried again and it is the best bread we've ever eaten! Thanks so much. One question-Do you have to add more flour when kneading this using the mixer? It's been so sticky starting out, I keep adding very small amounts of flour as the dough hook is going. I probably added 1/4 to 1/3 cup extra.
Thanks,
bk0110
I haven't made this yet, but have been making all kinds of breads/rolls with sourdough and have been working on the windowpaning. This list of the different stages was very helpful, but how long does one have to knead to get to that stage? I knead the dough in my counter top Globe mixer for up to10 minutes and also do the three S&F, but can't quite get to stage 3.
I am unable to reconcile 19% PFF for my spreadsheet. I keep coming up with ~17% 0re-fermented Flour. Can some help?
“ Sourdough Incredibly soft white bread
Note: 19% of the flour is in levain
Note: total flour is 250g, fit my Chinese small-ish pullman pan. For 8X4 US loaf tin, I suggest to use about 270g of total flour. For KAF 13X4X4 pullman pan, I would suggest using about 430g of total flour.
- levain
starter (100%), 13g
milk, 22g
bread flour, 41g
1. Mix and let fermentation at room temp (73F) for 12 hours.
- final dough
bread flour, 203g (I used half KAF bread flour and half KAF AP flour for a balance of chewiness and volume)
sugar, 25g
butter, 25g, softened
egg whites, 60g
salt, 3g
milk, 102g”
The 13 g of starter in the levain is being included in the calculation. 6.5 g flour and 6.5 g water.
The texture, flavor, and smell of this bread is phenomenal… The bread is not sour, but the sd starter gives it a very complex flavor. The texture is soft, nothing like normal SD breads.
TXFarmer is an artisan and genius.
This bread is worth a try.
Anyone know what happened to TXFarmer?
Danny
A tip that has served me well -
When intensive mixing is used, try freezing all of the flour and other dry ingredients mixed together in the covered mixer bowl overnight in the freezer. This will allow extremely long mixing without overheating the dough. I can go at least 20 minutes with a spiral mixer before the dough reaches 80F. Any liquids are also used cold.