My first diagnose request | The Fresh Loaf

Here we go, my first request for a diagnose.

I’ve been sour-dough baking for only two months. I want to keep it simple in the beginning, so I am sticking to the standard Tartine recipe that I’ve seen on forums and YouTube.

Starter: 100% hydration fine whole rye flour.

Levain: 10g starter, 50g fine whole rye, 50g bread flour (13% protein), 100g water.

Dough: 210g levain, 450g bread flour (13% protein), 50g whole-wheat, 350+25g water, 11g salt.

Bakers %:

82.6% wheat

9.1% Rye

8.3 % Whole-wheat

1.8% salt

79.3% Hydration

Note: I live in Indonesia and heat is an issue. Kitchen is 30C+ and living room is 19-28C depending on whether AC is on or not. My biggest fear is over-fermentation, therefore I err on the side of caution when it comes to fermentation. You may therefore notice reduced timespans compared to the original recipe. Although I mix, fold and shape in kitchen, I ferment and bench rest in living room.

Levain took 6h to pass the float test. It started at ~26C RT and finished at ~20C RT. Levain dissolved in water. Flours added. 45 minute autolyse.

I add Salt dissolved in water. Mixed in by gripping the dough and forming fists, 6-7 times. I’m not too meticulous with salt distribution, as I don’t think I’m supposed to develop gluten yet, and I recon the salt will be further distributed during stretch and folds. Never had an issue with uneven salt distribution in final bread.

5 cycles of 20 minute bulk and stretch ‘n folds, followed by one hour bulk.

Preshaping: After light dusting, I round up the dough to a boule shape with scraper, sticky side down. I flip it, stretch to the left and right, and fold in the 2 sides, forming 3 layers (letter style). I turn dough 90 degrees and roll towards me, gently pressing down with each roll. I seal the bottom seam and sides.

15 min bench rest

Final shaping: as pre-shaping.

I rub flour into a kitchen towel, lay my dough on top, seam up. Lift towel into plastic bowl. Place bowl in plastic grocery bag because I fear the surface may dry if I don’t.

Retard in fridge 9h.

Now for the stupid part: After 10 minutes in the fridge, I felt I dissatisfied with the Tension I achieved during final shaping. To ease my mind I got out of bed, took the bowl out, and tensioned the dough while it still lay face down in the towel. I lifted up a bit from the side, gently stretched and folded into the middle. I worked around the dough like a flower petal, making 6 or 7 of these, before returning it to the fridge.

I learned the consequences of this idiocy in the morning. The stretching had thinned out the flour coating of the top side of the dough (ie the side facing down). Once the dough was turned into the hot Dutch oven, it was time to full off the towel and, you guessed it, ... a bit of the top had stuck to the towel.

Anyhow, 30 mins with lid at oven max (it says 250 but I’m doubtful). 25 minutes without lid at slightly less

Not the prettiest creation I’ve done but it tastes great.

I’m curious about the verdicts on bulk fermentation, proofing, and any other insights you may have.

The top crust is a bit pale. Maybe do not decrease oven temperature after you remove the lid. You'll get a browner crust then.

Bet the taste is wonderful.

hester

Thank you for your comment. On my next bake I will leave the oven on full blast for the full bake.

Also toying with the idea of removing the Pär-baked loaf from the Dutch oven at the halfway mark and leave it to sit “naked” on the oven rack for the latter half.

Just make sure you have good oven mittens to protect your hands.

Again, lovely bake. And with a formula that is no at all easy. My usual bakes have a much lower hydration %age.

hester

Dreamer, you are doing remarkably well. I will say that the 80% Tartine hydration is not a simple formula.

I think your bread could benefit even more from a little longer ferment. The larger holes, surrounded by the tighter crumb is generally accepted as an indicator of under proofing. Although, not grossly under proofed, your bread will get even better when proofed a little longer.

Danny

Thank you. I really did not expect verdicts to be as positive as these.

You mention both a longer ferment and a longer proofing. I interpret that to mean that both the bulk ferment and the retarded proofing stage can be extended a notch. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean that I only extend proofing a bit?

Try bulk fermenting until the dough has increased 30-50%. Then divide and shape. The easiest thing to do now Is to put the covered shaped dough into the frig overnight, The next morning preheat your oven, remove dough from frig, score and put cold dough in the oven to bake.

Note - you definitely don’t want to over proof your dough on the counter. It is much better to bake the dough a little under proofed than over proofed.

Dan

Thanks Dan and Hester for your comments. Taking both your suggestions into account, I’ll amend my next bake as follows.

Extend retarded proofing from 9h to 12h.
I’ll maintain the bulk at 2h+1h. As I’m altering the proofing variable I want to see what effect that has without changing other variables.
To improve color I will change the baking times from [30 w lid + 25 without] to [25 w lid + 30 without].
To further improve color I will remove bread from Dutch Oven and leave on oven rack during the latter half of the bake.
Oven will stay on full blast (not a very hot oven) for the full bake.

From yozzause:

blend salt thoroughly
increase salt

Ill post results next weekend.

Dreamer, timing a ferment is not the best way. Temperature, flours, and especially levains can vary a great deal. The mantra throughout the site is, “watch the dough, not the clock”. If you haven a clear and relatively straight sided container, bulk proof your dough in that. Mark the container with a peice of tape at the level of the dough. NOTE - since the dough will not flatten out (like liquid would), put the mark where you image it would level out. Then put a peice of tape where you imagine a 50% increase would be. Note - this is difficult without a straight sided container.

If a clear or straight sided container is not available, do the same with the container you will bulk proof in like this. Place your dough into the container and estimate where the flattened level of the dough would be.Then remove the dough and fill the container with enough water to reach your mark. If you have a scale weigh the water in grams. Let’s say it is 1000 grams. Fill your empty bowl with 1500 grams of water and mark that level. That will indicate 50% rise.

It can be very difficult to estimate the percentage of rise in certain containers.

I use this container with the accompanying lid. A smaller version would also work, depending on the amount of dough you mix. https://www.amazon.com/Cambro-RFS12PP190-Polypropylene-Storage-Container/dp/B00125NA0Y/ref=sr_1_39?keywords=Cambro&qid=1550418010&s=gateway&sr=8-39

Danny

Hi Danny, I followed your advice. I found a clear plastic rectangular Tupperware-type container with a lid that clips on on 4 sides.

The sides were reasonably straight, so there was no need to measure and weigh water to determine the correct height for a 50% increase.

I Made a triple batch of dough, using 630g of levain, 1500g flour, 1095g water, for a total hydration of 77.7%

I was delighted to see that the dough initially levelled out to almost exactly half the height of the container. It was therefore very easy to see by eye-measurement alone when when it had risen by 50%.

the theee loaves are now proofing in the fridge.

Hi S/D

Coming from Indonesia Our nearest Norther neighbors i was interested in the flours that are available to you. Your comment regarding the addition of the salt into your mix and not wanting to develop the gluten to early is interesting, the gluten is developing as soon as the flour is hydrated and part of the point of the autolyse. The complete and even dispersion of the salt within the dough is very important as it performs a number of important rolls in a good dough. In one of your pictures there are some areas of darker colouration of the crust, this is sometimes an indication of incomplete mixing of ingredients particularly salt, especially when held back and added late in a mix. Also with consideration to the hot weather slightly more salt could be an advantage, i use 2% here in Perth Western Australia but have used up to 2.5% in the commercial world when heat wave conditions with 40 degree temperatures were expected. If you are able to get hold of some good quality linen such as tablecloths they are far superior to kitchen towels for both covering the doughs to prevent skining and for use as couches for placing dough pieces on. Irish linen has a really tight weave and will last a life time

kind regards Derek

“i was interested in the flours that are available to you”

In the supermarkets, 3 type of wheat flour from the same brand is available, with 8%, 10% and 13% protein respectively. That’s all there is. I only use the 13% for bread.
When I go home to Sweden on holidays I bring back rye, mostly Fine Wholegrain Rye, but also some Coarse Wholegrain Rye.
On internet marketplaces some sellers offer branded imported wholegrain flours in original packaging. These are out of my price range.
Some internet sellers offer Wholegrain flours on a per kilo basis. It arrives in a clear plastic bag sealed with a rubber band, kid you not. I once tried buying Rye like this when I had run out of the good Swedish stuff. It was not comparable. This powdery mystery-substance had a different color, smell, taste, and “feel” from the Swedish rye I’m familiar with. It may have been extended with cheaper flour, baby-powder or something. The whole-wheat I now use is also from such a source, but it is actually not too bad. So first time purchases are a bit of a lottery. I take these purchases with a pinch of salt.

And that is a great Segway into:

“Your comment regarding the addition of the salt into your mix and not wanting to develop the gluten to early is interesting, the gluten is developing as soon as the flour is hydrated and part of the point of the autolyse. The complete and even dispersion of the salt within the dough is very important as it performs a number of important rolls in a good dough. “

This is from having multiple websites and YouTube channels as my baking teachers. Some say x and some say y. I picked this up from one such source, saying that the gluten should be held off and developed during the stretch and folds during bulk. As a beginner i’ll swallow anything.
Ill add “blending salt thoroughly” to my list of changes for my next bake. Look for improvements in next week’s pictures.

In one of your pictures there with consideration to the hot weather slightly more salt could be an advantage, i use 2% here in Perth Western Australia but have used up to 2.5% in the commercial world when heat wave conditions with 40 degree temperatures were expected.

I started out at 1.5% and now I’m at 1.9%. I will up it a bit more for next bake. Maybe 2.25%

If you are able to get hold of some good quality linen such as tablecloths they are far superior to kitchen towels for both covering the doughs to prevent skining and for use as couches for placing dough pieces on. Irish linen has a really tight weave and will last a life time

I was tempted to use my landlady’s family heirloom tablecloths, which would have been perfect, but she is quite particular about those.
ive never had problems with sticking prior to yester day.
I live close to SE Asia’s biggest textile market. Will have a look there.

Thanks for all tips. I appreciate it.

Hi S/D i thought that your flour choices might be limited, and interesting,

i know when i met Zita (Bakingbadly) in Fremantle and took him to a local providore he was knocked out by the choices of flours available, He posts from time to time on TFL and has a baking business in Siem Reap Cambodia.

The textile market sounds a good place to start looking , a nice tight weave cotton will serve you well for years.

With any changes that you make its best to do one at a time , and at least you will be more able to see if that change has achieved the desired result.

Over here there seems to be quite a few more flours coming on the market and i have been trying Caputo type O Manitoba and it has been a delight, which is from Naples.

i have yet to do a post on my bakes with this yet