Should I use malt? Is protein content of this flour too high?

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hreik on 2 Apr 2018 at 08:15

Gurus,
I am contemplating trying the Unbleached White Flour from Montana Flour and grain.  I finally reached them and got the answer to my 2 questions:


Protein content: ~13.5%

Added malt: zero.


I am inclined to try this, though the protein content is much higher than I'm used to.  Here's what they say about their flour

We take exceptional pride in the whole grain flours we produce. Our micronizer mill produces a homogenous flour at cool temperatures. Our flour is considerably drier than most other commercial flour because we do not temper (add water) to our wheat before milling as is the normal custom. It should be noted that flour produced from tempered wheat is approximately 14% moisture while our flour contains approximately 10% moisture. Not only does this provide more net flour per pound to the buyer, it enhances the shelf life of the product. Milling extremely dry wheat causes the bran to be pulverized into much smaller particles which will provide a much finer texture for the end product.

Our whole grain flour typically have a shelf life of 6 months.  In a dry cool environment our whole grain flours will keep for up to a year.  High humidity shortens shelf life.

I'd appreciate thoughts on two things:


1. Should avoid this flour  b/c of it's high protein content? I'm used to using T65, but supplies are unreliable. I also use AP.


2. If I try this should I get some diastatic malt and add it (0.1%) or not?

I read the comments section on their site and people find they have to add a bit of water to get the right consistency. I'm thinking this is more like strong bread flour than AP.

Thanks in advance

hester

 

1. Higher or lower protein depends on preference. All about the crumb you're after. I'd call this bread flour i.e. it's strong protein

2. Malt is just food for the yeast or starter. It won't be the be all and end all of a successful loaf. 

Can you elaborate about the crumb?  What did you mean?  will the crumb be denser with a higher protein flour?

Thanks in advance 

Well higher protein gives the dough more strength but can result in a tighter crumb. Lower protein the opposite. But as we know that's not the whole story as it depends on hydration, handling and shaping too. 

Very strong protein and high hydration can give the bread a chewier texture. Lower protein is more soft. 

I'm going to give it a try.  It's US sourced so will be reliable in terms of supply.  Will keep you posted.  If I get it this week, I'll try it this weekend.

Thanks again.

isrequired.  In this case the test showed that none was required.  malt is not the food for the wee beasties - they only eat various sugars.  Malt contains the enzymes that act as catalysts,once the flour gets wet, that help break the protein bonds in starch that breaks starch down into the sugars that the wee beasties can eat.  These enzymes are naturally found in whole grain flours but when white patent flour are sifted out much of these enzymes can be lost in the sifted out portion.  Malting grain for several days lets the now growing plant from the seed create more amylase enzymes.  Once dried and milled the malt can be added to white flour if the tested white flour is low in amylase.   Flour with no amylase would not provide the food that the wee beasties need to metabolize and ferment to make both yeast and sourdough breads.

There's a big difference between "doesn't need" and "doesn't have".  Millers can sell flours with or without malt, as they please.  Then it is up to the baker to decide which they want and how they want to use the flour. 

I'm accustomed to baking with malted flours, so it would take some experimentation on my part to figure out how to handle non-malted flours to get the results I want in my bread.  I suspect that the solution, for me, would be to add malt on my own.  If not that, I would have to add sugars in some form to get the crust browning, flavors, etc., that I am accustomed to.

Paul

Would rye supply enough sugar?  I almost always use about 10% of the total flour weight as rye and about 5% as whole wheat. I think perhaps I should purchase some malt just in case.


Thanks again

hester

Here's from his FB Page

 

Our StorySinclair's Bakery·Sunday, February 25, 2018In December 2016, I loaded my personal belongings, bakery equipment, vehicles and trailer onto a barge in Galveston, Texas and began my journey to Spain. After a few months in transit, it all arrived. One year later, I’m still working through the process of getting my bakery operational here in Europe.As I wade through the process I’ll continue to travel throughout the continent teaching courses and consulting with restaurants and bakeries. Plus of course I’ll do my best to keep you updated on any bakery experimentation I do and anything else interesting that I find along the way.Thanks so much for your patience and support, I really appreciate it!-Mark

as far as I understand which is different in US flours and I started to experiment to add small amounts to get better oven rise but have to say so far the impact is inconclusive. I shall keep trying and interesting to hear what people said in this thread.  Kat

My flour arrived yesterday.  I used 20 gm of my starter (KA AP) which I'd refreshed recently and did a 1:2:2 build. This morning the  100 gm of  levain looks lovely. I assume that means the dough will be just fine, but of course am not certain.  I will keep you all posted as I make my dough today and final shaping tonight w early morning bake

 

I still have malt and keep experimenting but in my case it still comes probably more to getting all the variables right and then the malt eventually might add that bit extra but 'skill' in dough handling, fermentation and all that comes first ...... Kat  p.s. I wish there would be a magic powder to give oven spring though!!!

I've gotten that kind of oven spring.  And one loaf was better than the other which I attribute to my scoring.  I was most happy that I have some digital memory in my fingers.  I was using a recipe which is about 65% hydration and knew immediately that I'd have to add more water until it felt right.  So I did that..... in stages.

If you try adding malt, Hamelman says no more than 0.1- 0.2%.  so in a loaf w 1000gm of flour just 1-2 grams is enough (I'd start w 1).  Very few digital kitchen scales are that accurate.  I am lucky enough to have an old OHaus Triple balance beam scale which I used to use when I dyed woolen yarn.  It is good to tenths of a gram....  Got it used.... lol

Do you premix, like Trevor Wilson?  That's what I've been doing.

 

mixing method and I also have been thinking a lot recently about adding water in 'stages'...

The new Vanessa Kimbell book 'The Sourdough School' writes some really interesting stuff about adding water in stages and she refers to the French term ...'bassinage'...

If you interested I share more , she says especially for 'open crumb' adding the water incrementally is vital...I saw a couple of threads on 'double hydration' and often now add water to the bulk.     Kat

I learn the better off I am.  So I usually use Trevor's premix method.  And b/c this flour is so dry I was thinking to add more water at the pre-mix stage next time (I do an overnight in the fridge premix)... But perhaps I should do it as I did today, in stages after adding the levain.... I would LOVE to know more.... so please. yes. Write as much as you're willing.

hester

described in her just this month published new book 'The Sourdough School - The Ground breaking guide to making gut-friendly' bread '. She explains how to achieve 'open crumb' in particular  it is important to add water 'incrementally' in high hydration doughs and that this is called in France 'eau de bassinage'.

I know, I know - so many beautiful books to buy....but I am very glad that I've got this one....

She also describes  two type of autolyse with or without levain and includes a baking schedule and template that she also provides online on her web site.

So here is an example from her book how to use a total of 850g water:

700g in the initial mixing to autolyse (with our without levain)

25g water to incorporate the salt (at the end of the autolyse)

100g added incrementally in 3 equal amounts during mixing (once the salt has been mixed in very well)

25g to use in the stretch and folds in bulk container

I find this approach very useful combined with Trevor's Rubaud method. So for instance add the levain first during first round of Rubaud then rest and add salt with water during 2nd Rubaud and potentially more water, if absorbed.

I really like this approach as the level of hydration is then guided by the flour and getting experience 'listening' to the dough...so I just started to experiment with this as book arrived this week....any thoughts are welcome....

Kat

 

Thank you so much this is so helpful.  And helps me to consider adding the water in stages after the premix and the addition of levain.  I was forced to do this, as I detail below, but was thinking to add it all at the beginning... now I will continue to do it the way you detail above and the way I was forced to.  lol

It actually sounds like exactly what happened to me.  Also by feel.  I was using Trevor's method of premix (overnight).  So it includes the salt. I was using a new flour (the Montana one).  The premix was fine. (613 grams of flour and 9 of salt.... plus 390 of water,  I prefer the French limit of 1.5% salt, not the US which is 2%).

The levain was 67grams 100% hydration.  I had a heck of a time adding it and immediately added some extra water to the mix.  how much?  maybe 20 gm.  I did Trevor's version of mixing and let it sit about 15 minutes.  Went back.  Still too stiff. Added more water.  It got noticeably softer and easier to deal with.  Worked it for 5 minutes. Left it for 10 and did the same until I got the consistency I thought was correct.  And the first 2 stretch and folds I wet my hands.  I'm so grateful my fingers have educated my brain and I went by touch.  I'm guessing instead of 385 grams of water, I ended up using... 450.  So now I'll do it the same way ...thanks so much

Am so grateful to you.  Going to look at the book on Smile.Amazon.com.... Thank you so

hester

 p.s. Is the book British?  Not released here until September.  Might have to do what I did for Hubby's upcoming birthday.... order from UK.  Lol
Thanks again

and I've abandoned overnight pre-mix as the flour just degraded so much and now just AL for 1 hour and then Rubaud...I find so far that I get more water incorporated this way  and don't 'flood' the dough!  Kat

really an old French bread making technique probably at least a couple hundred years old according to the Contemporary History of French Bread.  Professor Clavel discovered that the process he termed autolyse was found by him in a 1490's French cookbook.  How the old becomes new again!

https://books.google.com/books?id=T_fIDHagvgQC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=history+of+bassinage&source=bl&ots=NABv4QY1bt&sig=cZDIbnZNEQj8JMmcrYnMZ8fL1s…