They don't make sourdough bread like they used to — not even in San Francisco! The city used to be renowned for its sourdough bread as far back as the California gold rush of 1849. I call this recipe "sour bread" because it does not use a traditional sourdough culture; it would thus be misleading to call it "sourdough".
Through the years, San Francisco sourdough has been closely studied by microbiologists and food scientists. The microorganisms that produce the acids that give the bread its tangy flavor are well known.
The two main souring agents in San Francisco sourdough bread are acetic acid and lactic acid. This recipe is for a yeasted bread to which the baker adds acetic and lactic acids. The result is a sour bread which is very close in flavor to traditional San Francisco sourdough.
A loaf of traditional sourdough bread takes a long time to make due to the long proofing times required for the starter and the bread dough. Because this recipe uses baker's yeast, the proofing time is greatly reduced.
These directions are for one small loaf or boule. You can make a larger bâtard simply by doubling the ingredients.
A digital scale White vinegar Liquid lactic acid https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MBW7V2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 An eyedropper Bread flour Water Salt Instant or "rapid rise" yeast A sharp blade An electric mixer is helpful but is not required. Some knowledge of artisan baking techniques is helpful.
IMPORTANT!!! Do not use "active dry" yeast. Make sure the yeast is "instant" or "rapid rise". If Fleischmann's yeast is used, look for the bright yellow packets.
It is important to measure the ingredients as precisely as possible. In addition to a digital scale, I use an eyedropper to measure the vinegar and whey.
Combine the following ingredients in a mixer bowl:
146 grams flour
92 grams water
(Optional) 1/2 teaspoon diastatic malt powder
Mix flour, water and malt powder to the "shaggy" stage. All of the flour should be wet. Let rest (autolyze) for 30 minutes.
Add the following ingredients:
3.5 g Instant dry yeast
1/2 teaspoon salt
1.5 g White vinegar
1.5 g liquid lactic acid
Mix until a dough ball forms.
Place the dough ball on a towel or preferably a flax linen cloth and allow to proof for 2 hours in a warm place.
Using a sharp knife or blade, cut some slits in the top crust, about 1/4 inch deep. These slits allow the crust to expand while baking.
Bake at 375° to 425° F for one hour. You can steam the oven prior to baking by placing a shallow pan of water in the oven as it heats up, or bake in a Dutch oven or roasting pan.
During baking, the slits you have cut into the crust will open up. This is an indication of oven spring, or the degree to which the yeast has raised the bread.
VERY IMPORTANT: It is important to let the loaf cool completely after baking. This will take some time, anywhere from one-half to one hour. The flavor is still developing as the bread cools, so for the best flavor it is important to allow the loaf to cool completely.
THE RECIPE IN BAKER'S PERCENTAGES
Through the years, San Francisco sourdough has been closely studied by microbiologists and food scientists. The microorganisms that produce the acids that give the bread its tangy flavor are well known.
The two main souring agents in San Francisco sourdough bread are acetic acid and lactic acid. This recipe is for a yeasted bread to which the baker adds acetic and lactic acids. The result is a sour bread which is very close in flavor to traditional San Francisco sourdough.
A loaf of traditional sourdough bread takes a long time to make due to the long proofing times required for the starter and the bread dough. Because this recipe uses baker's yeast, the proofing time is greatly reduced.
These directions are for one small loaf or boule. You can make a larger bâtard simply by doubling the ingredients.
Because acids are added directly to the dough, it is advisable to make this recipe using bread flour (not all-purpose flour) due to bread flour's higher gluten content.
WHAT YOU WILL NEED:A digital scale White vinegar Liquid lactic acid https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MBW7V2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 An eyedropper Bread flour Water Salt Instant or "rapid rise" yeast A sharp blade An electric mixer is helpful but is not required. Some knowledge of artisan baking techniques is helpful.
IMPORTANT!!! Do not use "active dry" yeast. Make sure the yeast is "instant" or "rapid rise". If Fleischmann's yeast is used, look for the bright yellow packets.
It is important to measure the ingredients as precisely as possible. In addition to a digital scale, I use an eyedropper to measure the vinegar and whey.
Combine the following ingredients in a mixer bowl:
146 grams flour
92 grams water
(Optional) 1/2 teaspoon diastatic malt powder
Mix flour, water and malt powder to the "shaggy" stage. All of the flour should be wet. Let rest (autolyze) for 30 minutes.
Add the following ingredients:
3.5 g Instant dry yeast
1/2 teaspoon salt
1.5 g White vinegar
1.5 g liquid lactic acid
Mix until a dough ball forms.
Place the dough ball on a towel or preferably a flax linen cloth and allow to proof for 2 hours in a warm place.
Using a sharp knife or blade, cut some slits in the top crust, about 1/4 inch deep. These slits allow the crust to expand while baking.
Bake at 375° to 425° F for one hour. You can steam the oven prior to baking by placing a shallow pan of water in the oven as it heats up, or bake in a Dutch oven or roasting pan.
During baking, the slits you have cut into the crust will open up. This is an indication of oven spring, or the degree to which the yeast has raised the bread.
VERY IMPORTANT: It is important to let the loaf cool completely after baking. This will take some time, anywhere from one-half to one hour. The flavor is still developing as the bread cools, so for the best flavor it is important to allow the loaf to cool completely.
THE RECIPE IN BAKER'S PERCENTAGES
| Ingredient | Baker's percentage: | Grams boule: | Grams bâtard: |
| Flour | 100% | 146 | 292 |
| Water | 60% | 88 | 176 |
| Salt | 2% | 3 | 6 |
| Instant Yeast | 2.7% | 3.5 | 7 |
| Diastatic malt powder | 1/2 tsp | 1/2 tsp | |
| Lactic acid (liquid) | 1% | 1.5 | 3 |
| White Vinegar | 1% | 1.5 | 3 |
| Total Dough Weight | 240 | 480 | |
| Hydration | 60% |
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Do you have any pictures of your typical loaf and perhaps a cross section? I'm fascinated to explore this.
GregS
A photo won't tell you what it tastes like, but I can make it and take a picture if you need to see one.
It seems anything I bake comes out with a not-very-open crumb regardless of whether I use instant yeast or a conventional sourdough starter. I don't know why -- maybe it's the water or something to do with the high acidity (low pH) of the dough. Keep that in mind when you look at the photo. When I bake it, the slashes usually open up pretty well, which suggests good oven spring.
Have you ever had pre-1990 S.F. sourdough such as Larraburu, Parisian, Colombo, Toscana or some other? I would be interested in your feedback if you make this. First you will need to obtain some lactic acid powder which is $12 plus shipping from amazon. The one-pound bag will last you a good long time if you make it regularly.
Here is a shot of the finished boule and a cross-section of same.
I tried this yesterday copying your recipe as well as I could. The brand of lactic acid was unavailable so I got this one from Amazon. It is white powder as I expected. I scaled your recipe to 415 grams and used by 9x4x4 pullman pan without the lid. In the photo the loaf on the left is a sourdough with 18 hours fermentation. The loaf on the right is your recipe.
The flavor is good. Not as complex as the real thing but nicely tangy.
It is shorter as I expected from your post but it is also extremely pale. Almost like it has a white coating of some sort.
Any ideas on why so pale?
The only difference between your bake and mine is the lactic-acid powder used. I've never made it with that brand of lactic-acid powder so I can't vouch for it, but I can't imagine why it would inhibit the crust from browning.
Sadly, it looks like the Milliard powder is M.I.A. What happens if you make a loaf without any lactic-acid powder at all?
My loaves without lactic acid brown normally.
It looks to me like the powder I used and the Milliard are the same stuff. 60% lactic acid, 40% calcium-lactate.
Thanks for the reply. I'm going to do some further experiments to see if I can figure out what happened.
Bakers who routinely make Old School SF SD bread that we grew up with in the 60's and 70's, this bread has to be called Franken SF Sourdough. Many a Fresh lofian has published their versions of the old school SFSD knock off, Josh, DM Snyder, myself and so many,many others easily come to mind. Just make it like any of those and you will get a true representation of the real thing rather than something that isn't even near the same state much less city. Getting the color, taste, crust and crumb of the real thing is worth the effort. Lucy's sprouted 20% whole 6 grain SD this week is her latest example of making SFSD bread that reaks of the real thing in every way.
Lucy and I do like scientific oddities more than most so we like the effort and time spent here but the real thing is so easy - so why go to the trouble to make it so horribly wrong and Franken? I just had 5 weeks of Franken SFSD style Bread using these ingredients in Houston and it is just something that sort of reminds you of something like the SFSD of old and nothing more. Better than nothing though. Just saying.....no harm no foul
Happy baking.
Exactly! Just retard it for ascetic acid and use mature starter, more time with the levain, triple volume bulk, use higher temps throughout and lower the hydration level of the starter and levain for higher lactic acid. What are people thinking?
What I really want is a really tangy mostly whole wheat sourdough sandwich bread. I can make really good bread but I can't make it tangy. So I looked at this acid approach as a way to get to tangy.
I've tried many variations involving pre-ferments, and refrigeration. I can get a nice soft even crumb but only the mildest tang.
I have posted a new question here to follow up.
This approach is easier than the traditional approach, and I've tried both. You have complete control over the sourness and the proofing time is but a fraction.
This board is full of posts by people struggling with starters and too much or too little sour and assorted other maladies.
Disregard
Amazon too.
https://www.amazon.com/Bread-Smell-Fragrance-Sensory-Decisions/dp/B00CCO3L6W
Disregard
It turned out to be a simple solution. Adding 1/2 tsp of diastatic malt powder (malted barley flour) to the dough greatly improves the browning and is highly recommended.
Diastatic malt powder is easy to find on line and is a handy addition to any baker's arsenal.
Hi all.
I have been baking sourdough using the preferment method for some time now. I have been able to approach the old SF sourdough flavor but apparently like everybody else... no cigar. As all know it takes about 3 days to do it properly using a preferment. I came across this article and thought, hey what a deal so tried a loaf today. It came out much like in the pictures that were kindly sent but the taste is no where near my sourdough or more importantly the taste I grew up with as a kid living on the Peninsula with Larabaru, Pariesiene, Columbo, et. al. so am wondering what went wrong.
Im also a home brewer so I gound up some of my pale ale 2 row malt and sifted out the malt to harvest the diastatic powder. I had liquid lactic acid and powdere citric on hand from brewing, white vinegar from the kitchen. Note the receipe calls for powdered lactic acid so I diluted my 88% lactic to approximate the equivalent of the powder. I tasted it and it was definitely tart but not overwhelming. I was concerned that the low Ph would turn my dough into a gelatinous mass but not so since the baked loaf looked much like the picutres.
The problem is the bread, much to my surprise, actually tasted somewhat sweet. Not a trace of tartness.
Comment any one?
Thanks and best regads, Norm
"the recipe calls for powdered lactic acid so I diluted my 88% lactic to approximate the equivalent of the powder. I tasted it and it was definitely tart but not overwhelming."
"It came out much like in the pictures that were kindly sent but the taste is no where near my sourdough or more importantly the taste I grew up with as a kid living on the Peninsula with Larabaru, Pariesiene, Columbo, et. al. so am wondering what went wrong."
If the recipe is altered in any way and not followed to the letter, I can't vouch for the results. It took many, many test bakes to get the recipe and the balance between the acids just right with Milliard lactic acid, and again when Milliard discontinued its lactic acid powder and Druids Grove was substituted.
The amount of lactic acid is minute and it must be measured precisely. If you diluted liquid lactic acid then we are in unknown territory and all bets are off.
If you're trying to replicate Larraburu, try using lactic acid powder and following the recipe exactly and see if you have better results. Alternatively, you could make many test bakes with a different amount of liquid lactic acid each time until you get the flavor just right.
Here is the actual Larraburu process:
Larraburu process
People tinker with the recipe by adding rye flour but then it isn't authentic Larraburu.
Don't give up!
Thanks DoughHooker.
I'll look at my notes from that loaf and, as you suggested, experiment with the liquid lactic acid. I'm thinking I will add a drop of full strength liquid lactic acid to the water used when adding remaining water and flour to my fully developed preferment for the final loaf and see how it goes. Im hoping that way the pH shock won't be enough to have an effect the gluten or the mixed culture in the preferment. If the gluten holds up and I still dont get much tartness I may add another drop in the next loaf.
I realize I am not following your formula exactly by using a culture of evnironmental yeast and bacteria vs using dry commercial yeast and an organic acid to simulate the flavor development from a bacterial culture.
Down the pike I do have powdered citric acid on hand and may give that a try or use both so long as the gluten and bugs can stand it.
Thanks, again. Norm
What would be the point of adding citric acid? It is not found in sourdough and is likely to make your bread taste lemony.
Just spend the money and get some lactic acid powder.
Disregard
Drive over to your local Smart&Final market and pick up a block (vacuum packed) of instant dry yeast for less than $6. I think they may be 16oz packages (Fleischmann) or they may still have the 500g size (SAF the last time I have a record of buying that brand). Sure beats the packets from a price perspective. I keep a quart jar in the freezer and by habit replace it annually (I never use more than 1/4 of the original package) though it seems to still be quite viable.
Thanks for the yeast suggestion.
If you try this recipe, I will be very interested in hearing your reaction, be it favorable or unfavorable.
Doughooker, can I get the exact process for your formula? I want to replicate it exactly as you bake the bread. If the instructions are published, I missed them.
If you know temperatures of dough, fermentations, ect. that might be helpful.
Below is a screenshot of my spreadsheet. If you or anyone else would like to download a copy, let me know and I'll post a link.
Thanks,
Danny
It seems the USDA had the same idea I did. They came up with a formula for sourdough using vinegar for the acetic acid and sour whey for the lactic acid:
"Sourdough Bread
ARS scientists at the USDA's Western Regional Research Laboratory in Albany, California, found an unidentified bacterium in starter doughs from local San Francisco bakeries. It worked cooperatively with a yeast to produce the bread's unusual crust, texture and slightly sour taste. Subsequently, researchers on the other side of the continent, at the USDA's Eastern Regional Research Laboratory in Wyndmoor, Pennsylvania, worked with industry to develop a simple new procedure for making the bread. It used sour whey and vinegar instead of bacteria as sources of acetic and lactic acid. When the acids are added to a French bread formula in the quantities and proportions found in the traditional product, the result is a bread with the resilient body, robust flavor, coarse structure, and crisp chewy crust of the native San Francisco product. As a result, supermarkets everywhere today feature, not only sourdough breads, but also rolls and English muffins."
https://www.ars.usda.gov/office-of-technology-transfer/tech-transfer-success-stories/page-3/
Temperature isn't critical in this process because we are not cultivating microbes.
A 2-hour proof at room temperature should suffice.
Thanks for sharing this, I'm going to give it a try this weekend. One question though, in your revised recipe (3/9) you call for 1.5 g of lactic acid powder but shortly after that in a different post you said you increased the amount of lactic acid to 1.2 g. I just want to make sure I use the correct amount!
Also, Danny, I would love a copy of your spreadsheet.
Thanks!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d51o2x4q4puqmow/SFSD_DoughookerVersionYeasted.xlsx?dl=0 You can enter any total dough weight you wish in Cell B(10). All ingredients will auto-calculate.
Chris, if the percentage of Lactic Acid has been changed recently from 0.8%, please let me know. Slick asked about a possible change in the acid weight. Want to get this accurate.
I'm a little bummed. Amazon was scheduled to deliver the Lactic Acid today, but it is late so I may have to wait until tomorrow for delivery. If so, Friday will be the bake day.
Danny
Thanks very much for the sheet. It has lots of nice extra calculators too. I'm a spreadsheet guy and really appreciate all the extra effort (color coding, instructions, notes, etc).
My lactic acid did arrive from Amazon today but, unfortunately, I can't bake until Saturday. Ah well, I'll be interested in hearing how yours turns out.
Steve
Steve -
Thank you for pointing out the error. Too many copies of the recipe in too many places!
The correct amount is 1.2 g lactic acid powder, or 0.8 B.P.
Steve, if you PM me with your email address I will send you the template with full instructions and accompanying files. You are free to se it as you wish. For security purposes the files contain. No macros.
Danny
SF Sour Bread bake.
Since there are a number of post dealing with Doughooker’s bread, I decided to post to a New TOPIC.
The bake is super fast and although it has not been sliced yet, the smell is unique and nice. I plan to slice and report in a few hours.
I appreciate your time and help, Chris...
Danny
I doubt the acids are causing a problem because the same acids would be present in similar quantities in a loaf of conventional sourdough with a conventional culture.
Do you think we need to adjust the hydration? We could easily change the quantity of water without affecting the balance of acids and thus the flavor.
Chris, something is hindering the gluten development. I am very familiar with the flour (12% protein) I used and I know it to be very strong. Either I did something wrong or the formula needs tweaking.
Increasing the hydration might help prolong staling. It would probably open the crumb a little. 68-70% might be a good place to start. But so would longer fermentation.
What do you think about reducing the yeast in order to increase the fermentation?
I baked your bread in order to learn about the add-in acids. Ideally, I would like to incorporate your acid idea with a sourdough levain. Do you see this as a possibility?
I just don’t see how a short fermented bread can begin to compete with a long fermented bread. <A Thought> What about incorporating a poolish (pre-ferment)?
Just thinking out loud. I appreciate your help and the effort it took to develop your method.
Innovative people have always interested me. Whether one fails or succeeds, those that think outside the box are rare and interesting.
Danny
Doc.dough sent me this PM. I have yet to sit down and fully digest it.
Anything from Doc.Dough carries a lot of sway.
"What kind of flour are you using?
I would be inclined to mix the IDY with the flour and malt (no salt) then add 130°F water and stir to incorporate and make sure all of the flour gets wet. Let it sit for 15min then mix and incorporate everything else during the mix. That way the amylase makes maltose from the starch (which also goes faster at higher temperatures) and the yeast gets off to a good start before you add the salt and acids that can mess with the metabolism. When using IDY I target 107°F for the dough temp right after the addition of the liquids.
And I can't imagine that a two hour straight dough could run out of sugars and fail to brown. If somebody retards for a couple of days or does a super long bulk ferment and then a long cool proof that can happen, but even then it can generally be addressed with an extra 25° of oven temp and a bit of a reduction in oven time.
Do you bake with convection or just radiation? That can affect the way the crust comes out, especially if you don't have a lot of steam. It is incredibly hard to over knead, even with a machine to do the work. The simple test is to pull a window pane when you think you are done. I have (over more years than I care to think about) figured out how to read the surface of the dough in the mixer and judge gluten development that way. I was surprised how much difference there can be compared to using the clock for determining when you are done. Just the way the hook or the beater grabs the dough ball and small variations in total hydration can mean that my mix times for small batches vary by ±2 min (based on a nominal 7min for my standard batch).
Flour moisture content is something that I thought only commercial bakeries had to be concerned with, but over time you get to the point where you can tell in the first minute of mixing how much additional water to add. I find that for a 1600g batch, 15ml of added water will do a lot, and that a few milliliters can make the difference between a dough that handles perfectly when shaped and one that is a bit stiff and wants to tear. It is hard to test whether you are having the effect you want and it may all be illusory but in the winter I am reminded that the flour can dry out, even if it is measurably at 14% moisture when you buy a new 50# bag at S&F with a recent milling date.
"
Re: baking: both Danny and I use a Graniteware roaster, which is like a small Dutch oven. I spray the inside of the lid with water to generate steam. I bake for 20 minutes with the lid on, then remove the lid for an additional 40 minutes. My oven is a Wisco 620.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013SF411M/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Let's first try Doc.dough's method of mixing before we go changing anything else.
1. Mix the IDY with the flour and malt (no salt) then add 130°F water and stir to incorporate and make sure all of the flour gets wet.
2. Let it sit for 15 min then mix and incorporate salt and acids into the mix.
This is like a mini-autolyze. Let's try it before we go changing the hydration.
Chris, to be honest the flavor was disappointing. It lacked sour and it staled very quickly.
I think it will be necessary to increase the fermentation time, either by reducing the yeast, or better yet using a small amount of yeast to build an over night poolish. What do you think?
Let's try a loaf using Doc-Dough's suggestion first, then we can alter the amount of the ingredients.
Whe I get home from work I'll start a loaf using Doc-Dough's method.
Keep in mind that we're not cultivating a colony of microbes when thinking about proofing time.
"I would like to incorporate your acid idea with a sourdough levain. Do you see this as a possibility?"
We could do that to see how sour bread can get without tasting artificial.
It still concerns me why your bread isn't sour and mine is.
“It still concerns me why your bread isn't sour and mine is.”
It is difficult to compare flavors when our breads are not available to each other. Sour is relative. I did detect some sour notes, but compared to what I bake it was subtle. I was hoping to get an idea of how Larraburu SD would have tasted.
The 3 hurdles that I encountered with the intial bake were
Chris, In order to conduct identical test, please let me know your exact plans for the bake. If cahnged, I need hydration, and changes in ingredient percentages that vary from my spreadsheet, total dough weight ( I plan to mix the same weight as you and will compare the weights of your ingredients with mine.), time line of all procedures (including autolyse).
To be sure that I am using the identical ingredients; SAF Red Yeast, Druids Grove Lactic Acid Powder (link you provided on Amazon), Distilled White Vinegar. Please confirm that these ingredients are correct. I also used Morbread flour (12% protein). It is my favorite flour and has remained so for over a year.
Danny
Hi Danny -
Here is a spreadsheet with the actual formula:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qYHZ3uNtATiR7Rk75nAvUyRR5ZLxidQH0XNeYqSouDs/edit#gid=1386954137
I have already sent you a link to this page:
https://visualhotbed.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_5.html
Here is Doc.dough's preferment:
1. Mix the IDY with the flour and malt (no salt) then add 130°F water and stir to incorporate and make sure all of the flour gets wet.
2. Let it sit for 15min.
3. Then mix and incorporate acids and salt into the mix.
That way the amylase makes maltose from the starch (which also goes faster at higher temperatures) and the yeast gets off to a good start before you add the salt and acids that can mess with the metabolism.
My attempt is proving now. They aren't kidding about the instant yeast! It's only been proving an hour and it's already at least doubled in size.
Should I let it go the full 2 hours? I'm assuming the 130 degree water (102 dough temp) sped things up?
Slck, I’m probably too late, but if it has more than doubled I would go on to shaping. You may have to preheat the oven sooner because the final proof will also move quickly. I over proofed my first bake.
I just put it in the oven. I did the poke test and it only came partially back so I figured it was time. I still had to warm up the oven though.
Scored and in the oven in a Lodge combo cooker. Did you bake for a full hour or the usual (for the instructions I follow with a starter) 20-25 covered and 20-25 uncovered?
I don’t remember the timing, I think I Baked hotter tha Chris instructed and it didn’t work out well. BUT, be very careful with the heat. The diastatic malt will cause the crust to darken a great deal. Use his temps and watch the bread towards the end of the bake. I had to tent mine with tin foil to stop burning.
Also, try to bake this bread less than normal. I think over cooking may dry out the crumb and speed up staling. I’m not experienced in this area, but I’m guessing 203-204F. Maybe someone with experience will reply with a more definitive answer.
Good Luck!
Out of the oven now. I had it at 450 then turned it down to 400 after I read your message. Took the lid off after 25 minutes and baked for another 20 minutes at 400. The internal temperature was 209 so I stopped. Unlike yours, I didn't get much browning. Still needs to cool for a while before cutting it open.
I'll get some pictures up soon. Thanks for your help.
Steve
slick204 -
Please, please let us know if there's any sourness in your loaf. Hopefully there's sour to spare!
Danny's first loaf lacked sourness and it is a problem we are trying to diagnose. I have not had a problem with insufficient sour.
I cut it open late last night but I wanted to try it again this morning to see if it changed. I would say it has a very slight sour taste. On some bites I think it taste just right and on others it could use a bit more sour. It may just come down to the individual.
Next time I will modify the baking time/temp to get more browning and try to make it slightly more sour.
"On some bites I think it taste just right and on others it could use a bit more sour."
Maybe the ingredients weren't properly dispersed?
You can adjust the diastatic malt or oven temp to control browning. You can do controlled experimentation to get these thing right.
"I over proofed my first bake."
Could this be the reason you didn't get very much sourness?
Chris, over proofing will definitely lean to more sour, not less. Slick’s sour report seems similar to mine. I had a little sour, but not glaringly noticeable.
I am going to start the mix now for your sour bread. WOW! Do the birds know something? There are flying into the back yard by the droves. <Just Kidding>
As for browning. I baked at a much higher temp. I couldn’t locate your instructions so I guessed. I think I started at 500F and dropped to 450.
1st off I may have made a mistake (s) but I'm not aware of them. The recipe calls for a very small amount of flour. Recipe has only one rise ???
I multiplied the portions and made the bread. I was looking forward to a great treat but received great disappointment . My bread was very bland. It's going into the rubbish.
I can't understand how things could be so bad. I am ok with math. I'm going to try with experimental amounts of acid and vinegar.
Lou, it is an unusual formula and process. I am in the process of baking this for the second time.
Did your dough come together well. Were you able to fully develop the gluten.
Do you usually bake with sourdough.
Dan
"My bread was very bland. It's going into the rubbish."
Something is wrong somewhere. How does the lactic acid powder taste on your fingertip?
"I'm going to try with experimental amounts of acid and vinegar."
Yes, please do. I'll be interested in hearing the results of your experimentation.
I can't be the only one this recipe works for.
Chris, I tried texting you for your opinion on upping the hydration. The second bread is baked. While mixing (per Doc’s instructions) I determined that the acids and salt would be very dry and could be difficult to thoroughly incorporate into the dough. IMO at 63% your dough is very dry, so I opted to increase the hydration to a modest 68%. I added the extra water to the acid/salt slurry.
The dough came together a LITTLE better this time, but I was still unable to develop the gluten to my liking. No nice wndowpane. I think the acids are interfering with that, but might be wrong. I baked the dough seam side up without scoring. The oven remained @ 425 throughout the entire bake. First 20 minutes covered and the last 10 uncovered. The crust browned nicely, but once again the bread didn’t get any oven spring. I attribute that to the weak gluten development. The crumb did turn out much nicer than last time.
There is a slight sour flavor, but I can’t imagine that Larraburu’s bread tasted similar. It is ok for a yeasted bread but lacks when compared to a good sourdough. I will say that it is a breeze to prepare and bake, a very quick bread. I will continue to monitor the bread for staling. BTW - I think the increase in hydration may help the staling. I like this bread better than the last, but it will not replace my SFSD.
Chris, you might consider increasing the total weight of the boule. 247g TDW is very small. I’m from south Louisiana, and down here we’d call that a biscuit <LOL>
Danny
When I feed my starter I do not throw away anything. I put "excess" starter in another container and feed it. After a while I wind up with a lot of starter.
I put it all ( about 4 cups) into my kitchen aid mixer ( with arms to hold bowl ) and go from there. I don't measure or weigh as I've "been there done that"
( I hate that term ) Just very recently I bought the items mentioned in the above recipe and will have some fun with them. Failures are certain that is why every loaf is an adventure.
If you want to have some fun if or when you are bring bread to a group put 2 tablespoons of black pepper in the mixture for 2 loves.
That will get there attention. Cheers Lou
Gluten : I was adding too much, way too much. This last batch had 2 tablespoons Next batch will have zero. It does make bread chewy BUT kills the rise.
Vinegar 2 tablespoons in last batch next one will have 1 TBL. These batches are about 6 cups of flour.
I have been making much more bread than I can eat. This makes my neighbor very happy.
I put 2 TBL of Lactic acid powder in last batch and did not detect it ?? Next time 3 TBL.
I THINK adding gluten would be very good for pizza dough. Give it a 4 hour 1st rise then made you pizza layout maybe 1 hour rise ( it will be small rise ) this will give you a good chewy pizza. Cheers Lou
Please feel free to adjust the amount of either acid. Just heed my past warnings about overdoing it.
Too much vinegar will give itself away, and so will too much lactic acid.
We could increase the hydration. Keep in mind that Larraburu was 60%. All that will take a backseat to getting the flavor right.
Thank you for the research and clear directions on this SF style sour bread sourced from Eastern USDA in Flourtown PA. My loaf showed the 3 Cs well- crust, crumb, and color. I followed the recipe, but know that some varibles couldn't be duplicated. My yogurt whey may have been different, the all purpose flour protein content and ash could vary, temperatures and humidity are important sometimes. The initial autolyse was 35% hydration and very difficult for me to incorporate all the flour.
I really appreciated the reminder of adding diastalic malt. A little goes a long way to enhancing crust color. That's one I will use again and again. Making sourdough bread is a wonderful hobby for me and I am grateful to all who contribute to my knowledge base.
Does citric acid powder ,vinegar, or anything else you may know of damage natural sourdough yeast ?
I realize proper amounts must be used. I read somewhere lemon juice may be used instead of vinegar.
DOUGHHOOKER I don't know how to send a private message. I would like the formula. I'm at lou1al@outlook.com. Thank you Lou
If you still want to reach DoughHooker use this link.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/messages/new/60830?destination=user/60830
Hi Lou -
Sorry for the late reply.
Citric acid is not one of the main flavoring agents in real sourdough so I would be disinclined to try it unless you want lemony-tasting bread. The main flavoring agents are lactic acid and acetic acid (vinegar). Some bakers of fake sourdough use fumaric acid but that's not the way to go if you want an authentic flavor.
I would like the formula for San Francisco sourdough bread
Jac, the very best method for sour tasting sourdough is taught by Teresa Greenway of Northwest Sourdough. It is an online class that is worth the effort if you are serious about San Francisco SD. I have contacted her to get a discount coupon.
https://www.udemy.com/course/bake-san-francisco-style-sourdough-bread/?couponCode=MARCHFUN
Use Discount Code FEBFUN. It is good till tomorrow.
Here is the link to the course. I think the cost with the discount is about $10.
Let me know if you are interested.
Danny
Thanks for the response. I have taken Teresa’s couse but am not getting a real sour profile like I remember San Francisco sourdough to have. Trying to figure out why...
Jac, if you want to talk, PM me (click the icon near one of my post) and we’ll set something up. Teresa’s bread, if baked properly, will get you sour.
Danny
PM does seem to work on ipad...
Jac, try this link.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/user/danayo
My recent attempts at the USDA sourdough recipe have been disappointing — nowhere near sour enough.
The first time or two I made it, it was wonderful, comparing very favorably to the SFSD I remember. Then it went downhill from there. No change to the recipe or technique, and no sourness, either :( What went wrong? Did my kitchen need an exorcism?
I'm wondering if obtaining acid whey by draining plain yogurt is a dependable source of lactic acid, so I'm in the process of modifying the recipe using lactic acid powder. The stuff I use is Druid's Grove lactic acid powder available from amazon.com. I've had to wait for IDY to reappear on my grocer's shelves; it's been scarce lately.
I figure the other ingredients: flour, water, IDY, salt and vinegar can be left alone. I am keeping the USDA's 7 BP of white vinegar unchanged, using experimental quantities of lactic acid powder in test loaves until I'm satisfied with it. I will post the finished recipe when I get the flavor right.
Here is the original USDA patent:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/cd/3b/0d/f2eb7c00201294/US3826850.pdf
Using conventional sourdough starter, the only way I found to make it sour enough was to way overproof it. Needless to say the dough didn't like the overproofing and so I wasn't getting good loaves but they were plenty sour. I'm thinking maybe the way the old bakeries such as Larraburu maintained the starter had something to do with it. They were baking 24 hours per day and would refresh their (stiff) starter every 8 hours. I'm just a casual baker in my kitchen, not refreshing my starter every 8 hours and not baking 24 hours per day.
Some believe the flavor of SFSD comes principally from acetic acid, which is basically vinegar. If this were the case you would taste the vinegar. There is one sourdough bakery still operational in San Francisco which bakes a vinegary-tasting sourdough. Without a doubt, the sourness of good old-school SFSD such as Larraburu, Parisian, Colombo, Toscana, etc., comes principally from lactic, not acetic acid.
Hi, Jac -
I, too have tried Teresa Greenway's method and it was quite disappointing. The only way I found to get the authentic sour flavor you and I are seeking is by extreme overproofing. It turns out plenty sour but the dough turns to goo from the overproofing and the loaves don't turn out well. So this is a quandary. How did the old S.F. bakeries do it? (Several of the old-school sourdough bakeries were actually in Oakland.)
One reason I tried the USDA recipe is to have better control over the sourness. USDA is where SFSD was first studied in the 1960's.
Lactic acid powder was giving my bread a sour but off flavor. It tasted a little citrus-y, as if there were some citric acid mixed in with the lactic acid, so I have abandoned the idea of using lactic acid powder.
I'm still finessing the recipe but liquid lactic acid seems promising.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MBW7V2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It seems about 1 BP of lactic acid liquid makes it good.